It seems that is a direct reference to the feast of Gog in Ezekiel 39. I don't think this is humans being slaughtered, the princes of the earth are the demons, and here the gods who are the enemies, the forces of chaos, are used by God to nourish and bring about his salvation. Same idea in Psalm 74:14 with Leviathan.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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dargscisyhp said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Second and my original post is I find it humerus when people try and say how God views something when they themselves don't even Believe in God.

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doesn't?

Does someone who believes that Batman exists have more authority to speak on his character than a superfan who doesnt?

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Poor example since no one has a relationship with Batman. People have relationships with God and thus know Him better than those who don't even believe He exists.

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A batman believer can presumably believe he has a relationship with batman.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
John 14:26 ESV

Holy spiritual reveals God to us. If you don't believe in Him well He isn't revealing to you

Guns are tools that can be used for good or bad. I don't think it's wrong for a Christian to have a gun for protection. I do find the "God and Guns" merch silly and ridiculous. It's also annoying because people see that and just label anyone who is a Christian with a gun as someone like that.

Most of the solutions people put out there for gun laws would do nothing to stop these shootings. Bad people will get guns so you need to have good people with guns as well.

Just like lawyers, you need the good lawyers to protect you from the bad lawyers.

Very well could be. Still violent non the less.

Speaking of leviathan just got done listening to a study of how the Septuagint connects the whale/fish from Jonah to leviathan. It was pretty interesting. You familiar with that idea?

I won't speculate on what "the Bible really teaches" about guns and violence, but generally speaking my impression of Christianity as commonly practiced today is that it approves of violence and the use of force in order to accomplish whatever goals it has set or at the very least its adherents are convinced it does. This isn't just a reference to Christianity in America.

Pacifist Ag and those who believe as he does seem to be the outlier.

I'm curious of an example you have that Christians have a set goal and approve the use of violence to meet that goal?

I dono… Leviathan is a demonic chaos monster god. Jonah definitely dies, and goes to sheol, so sure I could see the link.

Sure. American Christians have historically supported military action against countries who don't have the "correct" type of government. Even those who present no threat to America.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Poor example since no one has a relationship with Batman. People have relationships with God and thus know Him better than those who don't even believe He exists.

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You don't have kids, do you?

That's a over simplification of a very complex issue in which American Christians aren't some subject of America that is unique in their historical support of our military engagements.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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That's a over simplification of a very complex issue in which American Christians aren't some subject of America that is unique in their historical support of our military engagements.

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I don't think the fact that everyone else has largely supported our military's murderous adventurism is a valid defense of large numbers of Christians supporting it.

I agree it is a simplification because it doesn't address the wider point that Christians in nations all over the world and for thousands of years have been supportive of the use of military force to achieve political goals. Sometimes these are given a religious facade, but not always. I am not arguing whether this is right or wrong, simply that there is little historical precedence that would lead us to expect most Christians to eschew violence on religious grounds. In that sense, people who argue for a pacifist version of Christianity are the outliers and not the norm.

So when it comes to the ownership and use of guns I am not going to pretend to be surprised that high percentages of Christians are in favor of it.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I think we should accept and welcome death and martyrdom if it comes for us as Christians.

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I don't. We should use all lawful means to preserve our lives.

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I don't get where "lawful" comes into it. In Britain it's illegal to own a handgun. So according to you it's okay for Christians in the US to protect themselves with handguns but not Christians in Britain. That doesn't make any sense to me. Christian morality shouldn't be contingent on government law

That's why I posted Romans.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience."
Romans 13:1-5 ESV

Paul makes it clear we are under human authorities by Gods sovereignty. Being under those authorities God can and does use them to execute judgment. In this case under the sword.

So what authority do we as Americans live under? The constitution. Which provides for the right to have fire arms and use them to protect themselves.

I'm not familiar with Britain law but would say Christians there are subject to that authority.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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I think we should accept and welcome death and martyrdom if it comes for us as Christians.

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I don't. We should use all lawful means to preserve our lives.

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I don't get where "lawful" comes into it. In Britain it's illegal to own a handgun. So according to you it's okay for Christians in the US to protect themselves with handguns but not Christians in Britain. That doesn't make any sense to me. Christian morality shouldn't be contingent on government law

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Correct, God's law.

I agree. However I wouldn't look at Christians supporting certain military engagements as a failure of Christianity. For the US example, the reasons presented to go to war were not "because we don't like there government". It was we are under attack and they have nuclear weapons etc. we can look back now and know well Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons and weren't really a threat etc so we can call that military engagement into question. But we are operating from a different knowledge point than those 20 years ago. And that is what I meant by over simplifying a complex issue.

If it had be presented as you stated like we don't like your type of government so we will kill you I am confident Christians would have opposed it. Just like I would today

Yukon Cornelius said:

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I agree. However I wouldn't look at Christians supporting certain military engagements as a failure of Christianity. For the US example, the reasons presented to go to war were not "because we don't like there government". It was we are under attack and they have nuclear weapons etc. we can look back now and know well Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons and weren't really a threat etc so we can call him bat military engagement into question. But we are operating from a different knowledge point than those 20 years ago. And that is what I meant by over simplifying a complex issue.

If it had be presented as you stated like we don't like your type of government so we will kill you I am confident Christians would have opposed it. Just like I would today

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Iraq wasn't attacking us. Perhaps the problem is that we are so easy to be duped into buying into obvious lies because we, including many in the Church, hold an idolatrous view of the military. Also, we knew back then that Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons. But Iraq isn't the only example. We've been involved in some level of military engagement in over 90% of the years that America has existed.

Christians supported Vietnam as well. Why? Because we didn't like their "type of government". We invaded a nation because we didn't want rice farmers in SE Asia to live under a government that would ally them with an enemy. Heck, even when the horrors we were committing over there started becoming public, we largely defended it. Nearly 80% of Americans disagreed with the verdict against Lt Calley for the My Lai massacre.

It's not just America. In pre-WW2 Germany, roughly 90% of the population identified as Christian. Again, the body of Christ failed and instead of choosing nonviolence and peacemaking, they chose mindless antichrist nationalism...on both sides.

I agree. Most US military engagements aren't justified and In fact aren't legal by congress not declaring war like the constitution requires.

However my point is we can easily look back in history and unfairly judge those in it. We operate at a higher knowledge stand point for numerous reasons.

Biblically war is not inherently bad. God commands the Israelites to go to war. And the Lord Himself fights on their behalf.

But we as Christians should be extra cautious of war. We should not be duped as easily as we have in the past. And sadly many Christians still are easily deceived. Well Americans as a whole are too.

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If it had be presented as you stated like we don't like your type of government so we will kill you I am confident Christians would have opposed it. Just like I would today

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Btw, very rarely are governments honest about the reasons to wage war. The problem is when people, especially Christians, aren't skeptical or hesitant to support. We know governments lie. We know they'll certainly lie in order to increase power for the state (which war almost always does). Yet, so many buy into the jingoistic nonsense trotted out because they really do support these wars. They just need a reason that will help them sleep at night, so they buy what is sold to them without even questioning.

All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

So how do we know God's law? We have the Torah, and it permits killing in self defense. However, that is not reiterated in the New Testament, and all the relevant New Testament scriptures are against using violence in self defense. So what are you using to determine God's law?

PacifistAg said:

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If it had be presented as you stated like we don't like your type of government so we will kill you I am confident Christians would have opposed it. Just like I would today

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Btw, very rarely are governments honest about the reasons to wage war. The problem is when people, especially Christians, aren't skeptical or hesitant to support. We know governments lie. We know they'll certainly lie in order to increase power for the state (which war almost always does). Yet, so many buy into the jingoistic nonsense trotted out because they really do support these wars. They just need a reason that will help them sleep at night, so they buy what is sold to them without even questioning.

All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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I agree. Most US military engagements aren't justified and In fact aren't legal by congress not declaring war like the constitution requires.

However my point is we can easily look back in history and unfairly judge those in it. We operate at a higher knowledge stand point for numerous reasons.

Biblically war is not inherently bad. God commands the Israelites to go to war. And the Lord Himself fights on their behalf.

But we as Christians should be extra cautious of war. We should not be duped as easily as we have in the past. And sadly many Christians still are easily deceived. Well Americans as a whole are too.

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I disagree with your claims that war is no inherently bad from a biblical perspective, or that God commanded the Israelites to go to war. But I addressed that earlier.

And it's not "unfair" to judge those in it. I hear this a lot with regards to how we condemn those who participated in slavery back in the day, as if there were countless people back then who saw it for the evil it was then. Those who supported it are without excuse. The same applies to war. There were those who saw it, whether Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, etc, for the evil they were back then. Just because they were outnumbered by the mindlessly "patriotic" doesn't absolve the supporters.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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So how do we know God's law? We have the Torah, and it permits killing in self defense. However, that is not reiterated in the New Testament, and all the relevant New Testament scriptures are against using violence in self defense. So what are you using to determine God's law?

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I don't believe laws in the Old Testament need to be reiterated in the New Testament for them to be valid. If it's a moral principle, it's perpetual.

I agree completely. The church needs to wake up to the ways of the devil. They've have been lulled to sleep and have been easily deceived.

Well scripture is clear war is not inherently bad and God engages in war. So we'll disagree there but I agree with almost all the rest you've posted.

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All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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I think this is an inaccurate and unfair statement.

Sure more could be done. But I think most people genuinely do care and have concern for our troops.

I think it's interesting that you note "concern for our troops" when evaluating the impact of war but don't mention whoever America is fighting and everyone else impacted by that war. Perhaps it's easy to forget that when there hasn't been a true war fought on American soil in well over a hundred years.

Rocag said:

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I think it's interesting that you note "concern for our troops" when evaluating the impact of war but don't mention whoever America is fighting and everyone else impacted by that war. Perhaps it's easy to forget that when there hasn't been a true war fought on American soil in well over a hundred years.

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I was replying to the statement about low-quality patriotic music and yellow ribbons. That was clearly an American reference.

Frok said:

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All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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I think this is an inaccurate and unfair statement.

Sure more could be done. But I think most people genuinely do care and have concern for our troops.

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I would argue that if they did care about the troops, they wouldn't be all gung ho about sending them to fight in wars. Especially entirely indefensible wars that we've been fighting for the past 70 years.

And there's certainly no concern for the troops of other nations, the same troops who also bear God's divine image, then there wouldn't be a desire that we kill them.

PacifistAg said:

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Frok said:

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All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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I think this is an inaccurate and unfair statement.

Sure more could be done. But I think most people genuinely do care and have concern for our troops.

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I would argue that if they did care about the troops, they wouldn't be all gung ho about sending them to fight in wars. Especially entirely indefensible wars that we've been fighting for the past 70 years.

And there's certainly no concern for the troops of other nations, the same troops who also bear God's divine image, then there wouldn't be a desire that we kill them.

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Okay, this is turned into something I wasn't even talking about. My objection was to the statement that the average American does not care about the costs of war or those that fight in it. I do not think that is true.

Of course there is a whole other side to each war but I wasn't making an essay on the total costs of war. Was simply defending the every day American.

PacifistAg said:

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Frok said:

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All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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I think this is an inaccurate and unfair statement.

Sure more could be done. But I think most people genuinely do care and have concern for our troops.

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I would argue that if they did care about the troops, they wouldn't be all gung ho about sending them to fight in wars. Especially entirely indefensible wars that we've been fighting for the past 70 years.

And there's certainly no concern for the troops of other nations, the same troops who also bear God's divine image, then there wouldn't be a desire that we kill them.

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Bingo.

Institute the draft again and see how excited American's would be for another war. We've been so detached from real suffering and war. Hell, one of our presidents said to 'go shopping'. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the issue of who exactly this country sends to war historically (although that trend is changing a bit in the last few years).

Frok said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Frok said:

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All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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I think this is an inaccurate and unfair statement.

Sure more could be done. But I think most people genuinely do care and have concern for our troops.

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I would argue that if they did care about the troops, they wouldn't be all gung ho about sending them to fight in wars. Especially entirely indefensible wars that we've been fighting for the past 70 years.

And there's certainly no concern for the troops of other nations, the same troops who also bear God's divine image, then there wouldn't be a desire that we kill them.

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Okay, this is turned into something I wasn't even talking about. My objection was to the statement that the average American does not care about the costs of war or those that fight in it. I do not think that is true.

Of course there is a whole other side to each war but I wasn't making an essay on the total costs of war. Was simply defending the every day American.

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I would argue that the average American really doesn't though. If they did, they wouldn't be so gung ho in supporting wars in which these soldiers are going to die. I think to the average American, soldiers fighting in these wars, on a day-to-day basis, are merely an afterthought. I think they care more about the war, especially winning it, than they do about the ones actually fighting it. And I think those who care about winning it don't do so because of some love for soldiers, but a sense of patriotism they get in notching another W.

Macarthur said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Frok said:

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All the while, little concern is truly given towards those who are actually fighting the wars and all the countless lives destroyed by it. People will put out some yellow ribbons, play some low quality patriotic music that drapes the war effort in Christianese, then go about their day.

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I think this is an inaccurate and unfair statement.

Sure more could be done. But I think most people genuinely do care and have concern for our troops.

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I would argue that if they did care about the troops, they wouldn't be all gung ho about sending them to fight in wars. Especially entirely indefensible wars that we've been fighting for the past 70 years.

And there's certainly no concern for the troops of other nations, the same troops who also bear God's divine image, then there wouldn't be a desire that we kill them.

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Bingo.

Institute the draft again and see how excited American's would be for another war. We've been so detached from real suffering and war. Hell, one of our presidents said to 'go shopping'. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the issue of who exactly this country sends to war historically (although that trend is changing a bit in the last few years).

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I think it was Twain who had suggested in a short story he wrote (maybe The Curious Republic of Gondour) that a nation must vote to go to war. Those who vote "yes" are the first ones sent to fight. Those who vote "no" aren't sent.

We'd see opinions change REAL fast, but we'd also see a sharp decline in the number of wars we fight.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Well scripture is clear war is not inherently bad and God engages in war. So we'll disagree there but I agree with almost all the rest you've posted.

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I believe it would be more accurate to say that "according to my interpretation of Scripture, it's clear that war is not inherently bad and that God engages in war", because I reject the notion that your position is "clear".