Sapper Redux said:

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nortex97 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Your definition of "news source" troubles me.

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I'm fine with that. Actually, it makes me smile.

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I'm sure it does. The facts are not your primary concern.

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This guy would also qualify for a doctor tag;

In March of 2016, Dr. Peter Daszak explained the practice of inserting spike protein into the sequence of bat-borne coronaviruses, experimenting with the process until it bound to human cells, thus progressing towards the creation of a pathogenic virus in humans. pic.twitter.com/HbiH06F0q5

— The Vigilant Fox (@VigilantFox) January 13, 2022

I know, some of us ignorant rubes care about and respect our fellow man (whether we have a PhD in history or an MD, or a JD, probably even some DO's), and some do not. Weird philosophy.

nortex97 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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nortex97 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Your definition of "news source" troubles me.

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I'm fine with that. Actually, it makes me smile.

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I'm sure it does. The facts are not your primary concern.

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This guy would also qualify for a doctor tag;

In March of 2016, Dr. Peter Daszak explained the practice of inserting spike protein into the sequence of bat-borne coronaviruses, experimenting with the process until it bound to human cells, thus progressing towards the creation of a pathogenic virus in humans. pic.twitter.com/HbiH06F0q5

— The Vigilant Fox (@VigilantFox) January 13, 2022

I know, some of us ignorant rubes care about and respect our fellow man (whether we have a PhD in history or an MD, or a JD, probably even some DO's), and some do not. Weird philosophy.

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Some of us want to form opinions after reviewing the data (even recognizing we have biases that influence what we accept, but trying to minimize that).

Others… cough, cough… form their opinions and then sort of look for support. Sort of.

Interesting.

It's very tempting to shrug and quote the first article you posted, "once the data starts getting confounded in complex ways, you cannot untangle it." We didn't observe that in the trials, so we need to come up with a reason that there's variance.

diehard03 said:

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As far as I'm concerned it's not a problem with the medical field or it's messaging. It's all culture wars and politics spilling over into healthcare thanks to the pandemic

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The medical field has no one to blame for it's erosion of trust than itself. it's leaders chose to participate in the culture wars.

That's the point.

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How exactly?

BluHorseShu said:

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nortex97 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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nortex97 said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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We also have a ridiculous advantage in testing. We get to simply go break whatever we can afford to break and see why and when that happens.

You don't get to mad scientist experiment on people. We also have a huge headstart. Euler was developing theories we use today when the medicine at the time suggested bloodletting would be a good idea.

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True, but arguably medicine is catching up, thanks to gain of function testing/mengele's of the world. Covid-19 is a prime example.

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Good freaking grief.

Oh, and Mengele, beyond his absolute evil, was an absolutely TERRIBLE researcher. Exactly none of his "work" has any value.

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The work he did absolutely broke things/people, unfortunately, as have the latter day mengele's. It's interesting to note in the context of this thread that while of course no thinking person would defend Mengele (who was an evil, stupid person, who would nonetheless qualify for a 'doctor' tag today on TA; interestingly enough he studied philosophy in school), about a third of all Nobel's in science and medicine through 1939 were Germans.

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...most Nazi medical research was intensely professional; proportionately, more German physicians (48 percent) joined the Nazi party than any other occupation. And Germany was a science powerhouse; through 1939, Germans accounted for more than a third of all Nobel prizes in medicine, chemistry, and physics.

So yes, there's plenty of Nazi-era research that doctors have used and built on ever since. But the data gathered in the concentration camps tended towards the gruesome, unscientific, and fairly useless. Two cases where these experiments did have some clear public-health application, though, involved phosgene gas and hypothermia.

The latter was part of German efforts to save Luftwaffe pilots downed in the North Sea: working at Dachau, SS doctor Sigmund Rascher had prisoners strapped down naked in freezing weather or submerged in ice water for hours at a time; blood, urine, and mucus samples were taken regularly while their body temperature dropped. On one hand, Rascher obtained data that no responsible researcher ever could, and he developed the life-saving hypothermia treatment technique called rapid active rewarming. On the other hand, he killed as many as 90 people to do it.

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I'd respectfully encourage folks who get so emotional at the mere suggestion I provided above to expand their news sources. I don't think the comparisons as between Fauci and Nazi's in the medical research field (human and animals) are entirely off base. Certainly, the popular propaganda both received/procured, and their hatred of any criticism/massive ego's are analogous.

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No, comparisons between Fauci and the Nazi's are ridiculously off base. Unless you mean Fauci where's shoes, like the Nazi's…Wait a minute…Fauci wears glasses…and so did some Nazis! NM, you were right

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It's comical how 'detractors' of mine, such as you, respond to a post with simple ad hominem responses after I've posted links/logical arguments.

So apparently in Canada you can lose visitation rights if you aren't vaccinated. Imagine the nerve of that father endangering his child. Also good on the Ronald McDonald House for kicking out those cancer kids. Totally normal stuff for sure. Get boosted guys.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59979408

Exactly. The most important thing to respect/appreciate, is that a doctor, who makes life and death decisions, made the decision about kicking out the kids with cancer. Us lay persons should just appreciate his judgment.

New day, new peak insanity, courtesy of our leftists and their medical community.
[url=https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/01/13/minneapolis-mayor-kids-between-2-and-5-need-to-show-a-negative-covid-test-done-in-a-lab-to-enter-restaurants/][/url]
Official lab-run tests needed for 2 to 5 year olds to enter restaurants.

These last few loads are solid straw men.

Sapper Redux said:

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nortex97 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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This is entirely false. WHO/CDC guidance throughout this process has changed, with the politics, throughout. This is why so much faith in the 'public health' community has been lost.

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It's cool man. Thanks for the correction. It's not like I have been doing this for over a decade before covid hit or anything.

No one in the US gives 2 flips about the WHO. The CDC is obviously a very important resource when dealing with any nationwide disease, but they're mostly pencil pushers. We get the vast majority of our guidance from studies and our doctor friends who've seen more than us. Which is pretty standard for us.

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There we go with the condescending "we just know a lot, and have seen a lot" storyline. I bet you also look down on Ivermectin and HcQ.

I would never see a doctor who had an attitude such as yours. Your profession has shamed itself over the past 2 years, and your combination of arrogance and ignorance befits your position about this.

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We've gone over, ad nauseum, the problems with Ivermectin and HCQ. Your hold to that is not evidence of a scientific mind, it's evidence of your obsessive politicization of a public health crisis. And of course you are completely incapable of admitting that. Which is why your posts are useless save as a window into the unthinking corner of the right wing world.

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Your boy is studying it, now, if you for some reason take him at his word.

Sapper Redux said:

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Of course they're studying it. They also studied HCQ. You keep assuming the medical professionals are behaving as political partisans. They aren't. If Ivermectin works, Fauci will be loudly touting it, regardless of what Rand Paul or some other extremist idiot says.

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I'd like to believe this. But in my civilian/lay life, out of the spotlight, I have even been offered damn good kickbacks from companies to push the client their direction. You think fauci isn't gettin anything from the pharmaceutical companies? I truly don't believe this is about what works. When this much money is involved, it's all politics, as much as people tout "medicine"... unfortunately. And that may just be my warped "right wing" mind, but I've seen how slimy local politics are first hand, so my outlook on levels above that aren't great either.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Rand Paul is an opthalmologist who has treated zero COVID patients. So his opinion on the subject rates higher than non-medical people like you, but far lower than anyone who has actually taken care of COVID patients. Such as almost all of the doctors in America.

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Remember the source: sapper is a plebeian and layman like the rest of us when it comes to the doctor game. The average person can't digest the studies or compete with a doctor. So even if a source like you says something it doesn't give sapper the platform to address doctor rand. Or have the rules of the game changed now and passengers can bang on the cockpit for turbulence?

We've known for a while they help/work through all phases. Follow the money. Most of us have also learned to avoid political doctors for treatment, and most especially proven liars. Hint: if they do support wearing paper masks still to prevent the spread of an upper respiratory virus...

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Pretty sure I was clear. I'd take Dr Rand's opinion over any layperson, but I'd take any doctor's opinion who had relevant experience over Dr Rand. And I'd take the CDC's recommendations over any one doctor's opinion. The fact that I consider no layperson's opinion valid has nothing to do with what yall should do, though I highly recommend discussing and taking the advice of your own doctor.

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Sapper denigrated Dr. Rand and his medical knowledge which is what nortex replied to. Sapper plays the credential game like you and agrees with zobel's assessment when it comes to non-experts bringing knowledge to the table. Between sapper and rand, sapper is the non expert and the cockpit banger. He got called out on it because the credential game is bull**** but by his own admission he's gotta head back to his seat before the Air Marshal comes over.

You coming in to save him doesn't change the rules of the game. If you meant to reply to a different post then I understand and I'll retract this but I'm going based of your reply being to nortex rather than the link.

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Hint: if they do support wearing paper masks still to prevent the spread of an upper respiratory virus

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That has to do with whether the virus is aerosolized (in which case a mask wouldn't work) or spreads via droplets (in which case it would help). Covid is spread via droplets.

nortex97 said:

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We've known for a while they help/work through all phases. Follow the money. Most of us have also learned to avoid political doctors for treatment, and most especially proven liars. Hint: if they do support wearing paper masks still to prevent the spread of an upper respiratory virus...

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American politics is owned by money, corrupted rather openly by money (and they convinced people this is good) and so following the money is always a good place to be skeptical.

Conversely, when something loses money and is against someone's self interest I give it a larger benefit of the doubt

Let's see what the company that produces ivermectin has to say, by your own admission they would be among the most likely to be biased toward the effectiveness of their own product:
KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 for evidence of efficacy and safety. It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:

No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.

https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

It's their stance from one year out but I don't see any evidence they changed it since.

I just respect Dr. Paul. I done learnt to trust all doctors.

Sapper Redux said:

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Hint: if they do support wearing paper masks still to prevent the spread of an upper respiratory virus

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That has to do with whether the virus is aerosolized (in which case a mask wouldn't work) or spreads via droplets (in which case it would help). Covid is spread via droplets.

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False. You don't know what you are talking about, again. Despite a lot of lies on the subject, masks (and mask mandates) show an R0 of zero for covid-19.



Sigh...laughing emoji, earned.

DizzyStarship said:

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Joe should sue.

Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Got a friend with a 20 y/o son, incredibly healthy, who developed myocarditis after the vax. This is being shown to be a side effect in young males.

He basically went into total body failure and was intubated for several weeks. Both legs amputated, liver and kidney failure, and may need a heart transplant.

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I hope he's able to recover. That's an extremely rare response.


The odds of myocarditis from the vaccine are far lower than the odds from contracting Covid.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110737

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2784800

Compared to infection with Covid

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/08/31/covid-myocarditis-risk-children-083121

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34341797/

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Pretty sure he ain't recovering from double amputation!

More ad hominem responses does it.

Dissent is ignored, as usual. Very lame response, for you. I expect it from some of the others.

Man, it's not ad hom. The letter that claims ivermectin - and HCQ and interferon - are all curative is hilarious. Anyone with five minutes of time and an ounce of basic common sense can see it's completely unreliable. It's a fantastic confirmation bias test in that regard.

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

Sincerely,
MAJ Joe Murphy, USMC

Zobel said:

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Interesting.

It's very tempting to shrug and quote the first article you posted, "once the data starts getting confounded in complex ways, you cannot untangle it." We didn't observe that in the trials, so we need to come up with a reason that there's variance.

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I agree completely, but rather than explore the data, when something like this is found, the authorities hide it.

Case in point, the graph I screen grabbed has been removed from the Alberta website after it was noted by people that questioned it. No explanation, no "we're looking into it", they just memory holed it.

COVID-19 Alberta statistics | alberta.ca

Raw trial data is being slow walked into the public. We have a limited set of that data curated by the manufacturers to obtain their EUA and a long list of experts promising things from these drugs that turned out to be false. Trusting the FDA, CDC, NIH, or the government of Alberta or Krysblikistan on this information seems like a bad call after the last year.