No, the people who run social media do.Macarthur said:Jabin said:Oh, I see your point. What exactly did Trump do or say re masks? I truly don't remember.Macarthur said:
You're missing my point.
I said, given what we knew at the time, the best course of action would have been to err on the side of caution. If masks even help a little, it was a dumb position to make masks so political and divisive.
But you also must agree that the other side of the aisle was also doing everything they could to make Covid political and divisive. The last 1 1/2 years have not been America's finest hour. Rather than rallying together in response to the threat, we split, divided, and attacked each other.
I'm not fan of Democrats, but while he was doing the things that I said above, what exactly should Democrats have done?
If what Dr. Birx said is true, hundreds of thousands of deaths could have been prevented just in the US. The President has the biggest and most influential Bully Pulpit in the world. And again, it would be one thing if he were just silent or indifferent. He was actively working against what his health team was saying/suggesting.
lost job due to no vax
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Over half the country is vaccinated and this hasn't slowed the spread or prevented the vaccinated from covid infection. It isn't adding up and you know it.Sapper Redux said:Azeotroper said:
Ok how about "we will let you work here if you inject this in your body to protect you from dying from a pathogen with a 99.5% survivability." I'm glad my career choice was self employment. We just shrug our shoulders and say "whatever".
Over 740,000 Americans are dead. Millions more are suffering from debilitating long term problems. Global supply chains have been badly disrupted. Survival is not 99.5% for those who catch it. And the virus continues to mutate.
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams
“It is easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they’ve been fooled” - Mark Twain
“It is easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they’ve been fooled” - Mark Twain
jonb02 said:Over half the country is vaccinated and this hasn't slowed the spread or prevented the vaccinated from covid infection. It isn't adding up and you know it.Sapper Redux said:Azeotroper said:
Ok how about "we will let you work here if you inject this in your body to protect you from dying from a pathogen with a 99.5% survivability." I'm glad my career choice was self employment. We just shrug our shoulders and say "whatever".
Over 740,000 Americans are dead. Millions more are suffering from debilitating long term problems. Global supply chains have been badly disrupted. Survival is not 99.5% for those who catch it. And the virus continues to mutate.
For a virus with an R0 of Covid Delta we'd need about 75-85 or 90% of the entire population to be immune in order to halt spread. We're not even close to that. No vaccine ever stops 100% of recipients from catching the target organism. People with the smallpox vaccine still caught smallpox. People with the polio vaccine still caught polio. The difference was that they were protected in almost all cases from serious illness or death. Same with Covid. The people dying or going to the ICU or spending days in the hospital are overwhelmingly unvaccinated, despite their declining percentage of the population.
Interesting article that I think sums up the whole thing well. It is not as clear cut as people think.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
So now we are getting "long covid19" amongst the vaccinated:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/scientists-reveal-how-often-fully-vaccinated-people-spread-covid-19-at-home/ar-AAQ8smk?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/scientists-reveal-how-often-fully-vaccinated-people-spread-covid-19-at-home/ar-AAQ8smk?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
mRNA vaccines have been around for a long time and are well tested, we just used viral vectors instead of liposomes.
****************
Which mRNA vaccines?
Rongagin71 said:
So now we are getting "long covid19" amongst the vaccinated:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/scientists-reveal-how-often-fully-vaccinated-people-spread-covid-19-at-home/ar-AAQ8smk?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
You realize it's much more frequently cured long Covid, right?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-clues-emerge-about-whether-vaccines-can-help-fight-long-covid-11633957200
I think everyone agrees that vaccines are useful, especially for those with comorbidities. The problem is that people with natural antibodies, who do not want to take the vaccine because it exposes them to "long covid19", are being fired.
Rongagin71 said:
I think everyone agrees that vaccines are useful, especially for those with comorbidities. The problem is that people with natural antibodies, who do not want to take the vaccine because it exposes them to "long covid19", are being fired.
The strength and duration of natural immunity is not known, would likely vary wildly, and, knowing what we know about coronaviruses in general, is likely not to last. The evidence we do have shows that vaccination greatly strengthens immunity of all types, and "long Covid" from the vaccines is not a significant portion of the vaccinated. You keep seeking excuses.
Am I "seeking excuses" ...
yes, I like to investigate and explore, and try not to be stupid as stupid is defined below:
yes, I like to investigate and explore, and try not to be stupid as stupid is defined below:
You seem to conflate the strength of different types of studies and research. And you seem to pick out conclusions that, in context, fall within normal expectations for something like this vaccine.
I thought that there was significant indication that people who had gotten SARS 20 or so years ago still had immunity to it and possibly to Covid also.Quote:
knowing what we know about coronaviruses in general, is likely not to last
Interesting. I'm curious to see how it works out. T-cells however, are not the same as antibodies. The presence of T-cells would allow a quicker immune response than no exposure, but it's going to lag an antibody response and could allow for worse outcomes.
The strength and duration of natural immunity is not known, would likely vary wildly, and, knowing what we know about coronaviruses in general, is likely not to last.
*******************
How is the human race not extinct yet since our natural immunity is total crap? You'd figure all these corona viruses floating around would have ended us centuries ago
*******************
How is the human race not extinct yet since our natural immunity is total crap? You'd figure all these corona viruses floating around would have ended us centuries ago
gordo97 said:
The strength and duration of natural immunity is not known, would likely vary wildly, and, knowing what we know about coronaviruses in general, is likely not to last.
*******************
How is the human race not extinct yet since our natural immunity is total crap? You'd figure all these corona viruses floating around would have ended us centuries ago
Over 1/3 and up to half of Europe died of the Black Death. Natural immunity "worked" in an evolutionary sense since humanity is still here. Doesn't mean I'd recommend relying solely on that as an individual.
The Spanish Influenza is an (IMHO) a more appropriate example...
time for my yearly flu vaccine (even tho it may be less than 50% effective),
but I'm old and have a history of Bronchitis so usually take it.
Saw a headline where Covid may soon require a course of 4 shots,
wouldn't it be easier to just go to a yearly shot like the flu,
perhaps as a package two in one shot.
time for my yearly flu vaccine (even tho it may be less than 50% effective),
but I'm old and have a history of Bronchitis so usually take it.
Saw a headline where Covid may soon require a course of 4 shots,
wouldn't it be easier to just go to a yearly shot like the flu,
perhaps as a package two in one shot.
Just saw this. Seems like masks do work, after all? Reducing incidence 53%?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/wearing-masks-single-most-effective-way-to-tackle-covid-study-finds
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/17/wearing-masks-single-most-effective-way-to-tackle-covid-study-finds
The Hefty Lefty
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Haha good bump. Trust the "science" folks.
Yes, the vaccines have worked. But if you don't take precautions and get vaccinated, viruses mutate and continue to mutate. We're currently dealing with a mix of RSV, flu, and COVID. It's a mess. Get the bivalent shot and your flu vaccine, folks.
The vaccines did nothing with regards to getting it or transmitting it. They do help with the severity of it. Maybe if the CDC/Fauci had been honest about it from the beginning they would have better luck with it. Either way, we now know with 100% certainty that the vaccine mandates were both bad science and bad policy.Sapper Redux said:
Yes, the vaccines have worked. But if you don't take precautions and get vaccinated, viruses mutate and continue to mutate. We're currently dealing with a mix of RSV, flu, and COVID. It's a mess. Get the bivalent shot and your flu vaccine, folks.
Not exactly true. From the release of the vaccines until April/May 2021 (during the alpha wave), the vaccines were nearly miraculous. 95+% for preventing infeciton and spread. From April/May 2021 to Dec 2021 (the delta wave), they were 80% against infection and spread. Its only when omicron hit in Dec 2021 that we started seeing mass breakthrough infections and the vaccines started being used as disease mitigators instead of disease preventers. Honestly, the vaccines probably wouldn't have been approved in the first place based on their activity against omicron and it's subsequent variants. So the vaccines were underwhelming until the bivalent booster just came out that also works against omicron. But don't let that obscure the fact that they were amazing against alpha and pretty good against delta. All comments relate to the mRNA vaccines. The others were less effective than those at each step.RAB91 said:The vaccines did nothing with regards to getting it or transmitting it. They do help with the severity of it. Maybe if the CDC/Fauci had been honest about it from the beginning they would have better luck with it. Either way, we now know with 100% certainty that the vaccine mandates were both bad science and bad policy.Sapper Redux said:
Yes, the vaccines have worked. But if you don't take precautions and get vaccinated, viruses mutate and continue to mutate. We're currently dealing with a mix of RSV, flu, and COVID. It's a mess. Get the bivalent shot and your flu vaccine, folks.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Regarding mandates, I'm generally pro vaccine mandate even prior to COVID and moreso than most. However, that only applies if you have potentially deadly or debilitating disease and a vaccine that prevents spread of infection. You also need a supply of vaccine for the mass vaccination. Those factors were only all true from March to December 2021. Prior to that we didn't have enough vaccine. After that, the vaccine did not prevent spread of disease. So in hindsight, that's a pretty short window to make something mandated. Add in the inability of any of our leaders to understand the problem, communicate, and actually lead and you get the mess we got
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Your years must be off. Omicron started in late '21. And by the time mandates were being strictly enforced my original statement stands. The arrogance of the medical community (not you personally) was a sight to behold. Between them ignoring natural immunity and them supporting mandates when the whole world knew of the lack of effectiveness, they've shown themselves to be completely 'following orders' types. It is sad, really.ramblin_ag02 said:Not exactly true. From the release of the vaccines until April/May 2021 (during the alpha wave), the vaccines were nearly miraculous. 95+% for preventing infeciton and spread. From April/May 2022 to Dec 2022 (the delta wave), they were 80% against infection and spread. Its only when omicron hit in Dec 2022 that we started seeing mass breakthrough infections and the vaccines started being used as disease mitigators instead of disease preventers. Honestly, the vaccines probably wouldn't have been approved in the first place based on their activity against omicron and it's subsequent variants. So the vaccines were underwhelming until the bivalent booster just came out that also works against omicron. But don't let that obscure the fact that they were amazing against alpha and pretty good against delta. All comments relate to the mRNA vaccines. The others were less effective than those at each step.RAB91 said:The vaccines did nothing with regards to getting it or transmitting it. They do help with the severity of it. Maybe if the CDC/Fauci had been honest about it from the beginning they would have better luck with it. Either way, we now know with 100% certainty that the vaccine mandates were both bad science and bad policy.Sapper Redux said:
Yes, the vaccines have worked. But if you don't take precautions and get vaccinated, viruses mutate and continue to mutate. We're currently dealing with a mix of RSV, flu, and COVID. It's a mess. Get the bivalent shot and your flu vaccine, folks.
you're right. I'll edit it for the correct years
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
RAB91 said:Your years must be off. Omicron started in late '21. And by the time mandates were being strictly enforced my original statement stands. The arrogance of the medical community (not you personally) was a sight to behold. Between them ignoring natural immunity and them supporting mandates when the whole world knew of the lack of effectiveness, they've shown themselves to be completely 'following orders' types. It is sad, really.ramblin_ag02 said:Not exactly true. From the release of the vaccines until April/May 2021 (during the alpha wave), the vaccines were nearly miraculous. 95+% for preventing infeciton and spread. From April/May 2022 to Dec 2022 (the delta wave), they were 80% against infection and spread. Its only when omicron hit in Dec 2022 that we started seeing mass breakthrough infections and the vaccines started being used as disease mitigators instead of disease preventers. Honestly, the vaccines probably wouldn't have been approved in the first place based on their activity against omicron and it's subsequent variants. So the vaccines were underwhelming until the bivalent booster just came out that also works against omicron. But don't let that obscure the fact that they were amazing against alpha and pretty good against delta. All comments relate to the mRNA vaccines. The others were less effective than those at each step.RAB91 said:The vaccines did nothing with regards to getting it or transmitting it. They do help with the severity of it. Maybe if the CDC/Fauci had been honest about it from the beginning they would have better luck with it. Either way, we now know with 100% certainty that the vaccine mandates were both bad science and bad policy.Sapper Redux said:
Yes, the vaccines have worked. But if you don't take precautions and get vaccinated, viruses mutate and continue to mutate. We're currently dealing with a mix of RSV, flu, and COVID. It's a mess. Get the bivalent shot and your flu vaccine, folks.
"Natural immunity" requires getting the virus. Which has killed over 1 million Americans. And "natural immunity" offers no long term protection from Omicron.
In the end we should all have the right to fear/not fear what we want to. The pressure and fear tactics used to force people to get the vax is what bothers me the most (coming from someone who is vaccinated).
The arguments for pressuring people to get the vaccine will be used for other "worthy" goals for the common good in the future. No lessons learned no concerns for personal freedom.
The arguments for pressuring people to get the vaccine will be used for other "worthy" goals for the common good in the future. No lessons learned no concerns for personal freedom.
You understand that a virus does not care whether you've chosen to get vaccinated or not? Or whether you've chosen to be exposed by someone who is unvaccinated or not? There are situations where ideological purity is extremely dangerous.
Freedom is always dangerous. Each of us should be allowed to choose our own comfort level with that danger as government/society will never be able to eradicate all dangers.Sapper Redux said:
You understand that a virus does not care whether you've chosen to get vaccinated or not? Or whether you've chosen to be exposed by someone who is unvaccinated or not? There are situations where ideological purity is extremely dangerous.
My line of comfort isn't yours and vice versa. I shouldn't force mine on you and you shouldn't force yours on me.
Sapper Redux said:
You understand that a virus does not care whether you've chosen to get vaccinated or not? Or whether you've chosen to be exposed by someone who is unvaccinated or not? There are situations where ideological purity is extremely dangerous.
Is your ideological purity dangerous too or just ours?
Sapper Redux said:RAB91 said:Your years must be off. Omicron started in late '21. And by the time mandates were being strictly enforced my original statement stands. The arrogance of the medical community (not you personally) was a sight to behold. Between them ignoring natural immunity and them supporting mandates when the whole world knew of the lack of effectiveness, they've shown themselves to be completely 'following orders' types. It is sad, really.ramblin_ag02 said:Not exactly true. From the release of the vaccines until April/May 2021 (during the alpha wave), the vaccines were nearly miraculous. 95+% for preventing infeciton and spread. From April/May 2022 to Dec 2022 (the delta wave), they were 80% against infection and spread. Its only when omicron hit in Dec 2022 that we started seeing mass breakthrough infections and the vaccines started being used as disease mitigators instead of disease preventers. Honestly, the vaccines probably wouldn't have been approved in the first place based on their activity against omicron and it's subsequent variants. So the vaccines were underwhelming until the bivalent booster just came out that also works against omicron. But don't let that obscure the fact that they were amazing against alpha and pretty good against delta. All comments relate to the mRNA vaccines. The others were less effective than those at each step.RAB91 said:The vaccines did nothing with regards to getting it or transmitting it. They do help with the severity of it. Maybe if the CDC/Fauci had been honest about it from the beginning they would have better luck with it. Either way, we now know with 100% certainty that the vaccine mandates were both bad science and bad policy.Sapper Redux said:
Yes, the vaccines have worked. But if you don't take precautions and get vaccinated, viruses mutate and continue to mutate. We're currently dealing with a mix of RSV, flu, and COVID. It's a mess. Get the bivalent shot and your flu vaccine, folks.
"Natural immunity" requires getting the virus. Which has killed over 1 million Americans. And "natural immunity" offers no long term protection from Omicron.
I'll take my chances with my natural immunity. How many total shots are you up to?
gordo97 said:
mRNA vaccines have been around for a long time and are well tested, we just used viral vectors instead of liposomes.
****************
Which mRNA vaccines?
A year later and the poster still hasn't answered your question. I believe our faux scientist friend abandoned this site, and rightfully so. He clearly was clueless. While mRNA formulated compounds have existed for years, I'd love for our lurking buddy to provide us with an extensive list of FDA approved products.
Question, does anyone feel that at this point in time that the virus is more dangerous than the vax?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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