The Edomites betrayed and rejected their brothers. It has nothing to do with God hating Esau. Now you're saying that God hated Esau so much He visited this hatred by killing his descendants? You know how many passages of scripture this contradicts?
If you are a five point Calvinist
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The gospel is a tough sale yet millions of us read the gospel of Christ and believe while millions of others scoff at it. A lot of the non believers come to this forum in amazement at our believe. A believe built on faith of a God that walked this earth 2000 years ago, and he is coming back to take us to heaven as his bride.PacifistAg said:Quote:
The more I read the scriptures, especially the New Testament, the more Calvinist jumps out at me.
Strange. The more I study Scriptures, especially through the lens of Christ crucified, the more I run in the other direction away from Calvinism.
We can go back and forth on scriptures and what the interruption may or maybe not be, the common ground is the believe in the gospel of Christ.
In my interruption or believe, The gospel of Christ is not going to save a bad marriage, or make you rich, or ease your conscience for the bad decisions you have made. The gospel is a message from God to repent from the deadness of sin because he loved us enough to sacrifice his son on a cross for our sins. By faith we are saved. From this believe naturally comes fruits of good works.
Finally, we all die in the end, average AMERICAN male dies at 74. I want to be in a place where sin doesn't exist, where my spirit is in a constant state of Joy.
But while we are here, rest your weary soul knowing God led you to Christ while for others have hard hearts and can't or refuse to believe.
If you are a Calvinist, then the Gospel should be an easy sell to the elect, correct?
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Wait, are we talking about Calvinism or are we talking about the gospel? I don't reject the gospel. I reject Calvinism.
I have read the Old Testament and don't claim to be an expert like some here.Zobel said:
The Edomites betrayed and rejected their brothers. It has nothing to do with God hating Esau. Now you're saying that God hated Esau so much He visited this hatred by killing his descendants? You know how many passages of scripture this contradicts?
God hated Esau, that is the words Recorded in the Bible, not mine, and Esau sold his birth rights to his brother Jacob.
His poor descendants never had a chance and their destiny was predetermined due to a cursed man. Even his mom didn't like him.
On the other hand, the descendants of Jacob are truly blessed and when they turned away from God they were punished but not utterly destroyed.
Your interruption of the gospel is certainly different than mine. Fortunately, we have God that will sort it out for us.PacifistAg said:
Wait, are we talking about Calvinism or are we talking about the gospel? I don't reject the gospel. I reject Calvinism.
Where did Moses write that?
Stand corrected as I thought it was stated n Genesis. None the less, the words of the Bible are from God.Zobel said:
Where did Moses write that?
Here are the versus concerning Esau in the Bible, not so blessed.
Jeremiah 49:10 pretty much sums it up.
https://sarata.com/bible/verses/about/esau.html
PA24 said:Your interruption of the gospel is certainly different than mine. Fortunately, we have God that will sort it out for us.PacifistAg said:
Wait, are we talking about Calvinism or are we talking about the gospel? I don't reject the gospel. I reject Calvinism.
Yes, our interpretations are certainly different. You're a Calvinist and I'm an open theist. Just as long as you don't hold acceptance of Calvinism to be a salvational issue, then we're good.
Jeremiah 49:10 is about Edom, not Esau. You can tell because it starts with "Concerning Edom".
I certainly don't, I am not that smart but the predestine/elect is thruout the Bible. I will also agree, free will is also well represented n scripture.PacifistAg said:PA24 said:Your interruption of the gospel is certainly different than mine. Fortunately, we have God that will sort it out for us.PacifistAg said:
Wait, are we talking about Calvinism or are we talking about the gospel? I don't reject the gospel. I reject Calvinism.
Yes, our interpretations are certainly different. You're a Calvinist and I'm an open theist. Just as long as you don't hold acceptance of Calvinism to be a salvational issue, then we're good.
Point is we have common ground as when the apostles pointed out there were others healing in his name and Jesus said who is with us is not against us and they will have their spiritual blessings.
It is all about the third realm, the spiritual world is where the real treasures are.
We are going to disagree but I like debating you.Zobel said:
Jeremiah 49:10 is about Edom, not Esau. You can tell because it starts with "Concerning Edom".
I have to go to bed but read 49:8
We can discuss more. Maybe a zoom Bible study? My wife is a wonderful reader.
Yes, the Edomites betrayed Judah. You can read about it in Malachi as well. There's no evidence that God hates Esau.
God did not hate Esau the man. God made a nation out of Esau the man - Edom. Esau inherited his portion of the inheritance through Abraham. The Lord says to Moses in Deuteronomy "command the people: You will pass through the territory of your brothers, the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir. They will be afraid of you, so you must be very careful. Do not provoke them, for I will not give you any of their land, not even a footprint, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as his possession. You are to pay them in silver for the food you eat and the water you drink." Edom is brother to Israel. Later, we aren't told why, Edom becomes an enemy to Israel and are defeated by Saul (1 Sam 14) and after that becomes a vassal state of Israel and later Judah.
Later again, the Edomites rebelled against Judah, causing prophets to speak against them. In Obadiah 1, you can read "This is what the Lord GOD says about Edom" and later - "how Esau will be pillaged, his hidden treasures sought out!" and again "everyone in the mountains of Esau will be cut down in the slaughter. Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame and cut off forever."
"On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gate and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were just like one of them."
This isn't in the story of Jacob and Esau in Genesis, because it isn't about Jacob and Esau the people - it is about the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah by Babylon, and how Edom did not come to aid Israel and actually gloated and looted with the Babylonians, and robbed the refugees.
"the house of Jacob will be a blazing fire, and the house of Joseph a burning flame; but the house of Esau will be stubble -- Jacob will set it ablaze and consume it. Therefore no survivor will remain from the house of Esau."
The Lord says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin" and "the soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him." Edom was punished for their sins. Esau was blessed by God, though he lost his birthright through his stomach, rejecting the promise for a meal.
God did not hate Esau the man. God made a nation out of Esau the man - Edom. Esau inherited his portion of the inheritance through Abraham. The Lord says to Moses in Deuteronomy "command the people: You will pass through the territory of your brothers, the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir. They will be afraid of you, so you must be very careful. Do not provoke them, for I will not give you any of their land, not even a footprint, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as his possession. You are to pay them in silver for the food you eat and the water you drink." Edom is brother to Israel. Later, we aren't told why, Edom becomes an enemy to Israel and are defeated by Saul (1 Sam 14) and after that becomes a vassal state of Israel and later Judah.
Later again, the Edomites rebelled against Judah, causing prophets to speak against them. In Obadiah 1, you can read "This is what the Lord GOD says about Edom" and later - "how Esau will be pillaged, his hidden treasures sought out!" and again "everyone in the mountains of Esau will be cut down in the slaughter. Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame and cut off forever."
"On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gate and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were just like one of them."
This isn't in the story of Jacob and Esau in Genesis, because it isn't about Jacob and Esau the people - it is about the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah by Babylon, and how Edom did not come to aid Israel and actually gloated and looted with the Babylonians, and robbed the refugees.
"the house of Jacob will be a blazing fire, and the house of Joseph a burning flame; but the house of Esau will be stubble -- Jacob will set it ablaze and consume it. Therefore no survivor will remain from the house of Esau."
The Lord says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin" and "the soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him." Edom was punished for their sins. Esau was blessed by God, though he lost his birthright through his stomach, rejecting the promise for a meal.
Very well put and his offsprings maybe Jordanians or Lebanese? Or maybe they have been annihilated as they continued to carry a grudge against the descendants of Jacob which is my point.Zobel said:
Yes, the Edomites betrayed Judah. You can read about it in Malachi as well. There's no evidence that God hates Esau.
God did not hate Esau the man. God made a nation out of Esau the man - Edom. Esau inherited his portion of the inheritance through Abraham. The Lord says to Moses in Deuteronomy "command the people: You will pass through the territory of your brothers, the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir. They will be afraid of you, so you must be very careful. Do not provoke them, for I will not give you any of their land, not even a footprint, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as his possession. You are to pay them in silver for the food you eat and the water you drink." Edom is brother to Israel. Later, we aren't told why, Edom becomes an enemy to Israel and are defeated by Saul (1 Sam 14) and after that becomes a vassal state of Israel and lat Judah.
Later again, the Edomites rebelled against Judah, causing prophets to speak against them. In Obadiah 1, you can read "This is what the Lord GOD says about Edom" and later - "how Esau will be pillaged, his hidden treasures sought out!" and again "everyone in the mountains of Esau will be cut down in the slaughter. Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame and cut off forever."
"On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gate and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were just like one of them."
This isn't in the story of Jacob and Esau in Genesis, because it isn't about Jacob and Esau the people - it is about the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah by Babylon, and how Edom did not come to aid Israel and actually gloated and looted with the Babylonians, and robbed the refugees.
"the house of Jacob will be a blazing fire, and the house of Joseph a burning flame; but the house of Esau will be stubble -- Jacob will set it ablaze and consume it. Therefore no survivor will remain from the house of Esau."
The Lord says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin" and "the soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him." Edom was punished for their sins. Esau was blessed by God, though he lost his birthright through his stomach, rejecting the promise for a meal.
I have some much too write but don't have a break until Wednesday so hold that thoughtu too DDoc.
You can speculate all you want. But I don't think you should ascribe your speculations to Holy Scripture or make them out as accusations against the Lord.
One of the problems I see is the modern day emphasis on individual salvation as a one time event.
There are a lot of Scriptural references to nations, such as the parable of the sheep and goats, and I believe with Jacob and Esau, that have been applied to individual salvation.
And a lot of Scripture about continuing salvation as we abide in Christ. Christians seem more concerned about avoiding hell than living the abundant, joyful, peaceful life Christ promised.
From my reading of Scripture, Jesus instructed us much more on how to live our present life than He talked about the specifics of Heaven and eternal life,
There are a lot of Scriptural references to nations, such as the parable of the sheep and goats, and I believe with Jacob and Esau, that have been applied to individual salvation.
And a lot of Scripture about continuing salvation as we abide in Christ. Christians seem more concerned about avoiding hell than living the abundant, joyful, peaceful life Christ promised.
From my reading of Scripture, Jesus instructed us much more on how to live our present life than He talked about the specifics of Heaven and eternal life,
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You're heading in a good direction with some things here, but be careful, the Bible was not given to us as a self-help tool, but to lead us to repentance. We shouldn't read about David or Elijah overcoming trials and put ourselves in their shoes and say that we must face our Goliath's or seek God's presence to live a good life, the whole Bible points to the gospel. We aren't David and we aren't Elijah and trying to use the bible as a self-help tool draws our attention away from the only thing that gives us the power to permanently overcome our sin: Christ's sacrifice. If we try to live the good life by our own strength, we will fail. Every piece of the bible is to build up and point us to the gospel and our need for repentance that it outlines.dermdoc said:
One of the problems I see is the modern day emphasis on individual salvation as a one time event.
There are a lot of Scriptural references to nations, such as the parable of the sheep and goats, and I believe with Jacob and Esau, that have been applied to individual salvation.
And a lot of Scripture about continuing salvation as we abide in Christ. Christians seem more concerned about avoiding hell than living the abundant, joyful, peaceful life Christ promised.
From my reading of Scripture, Jesus instructed us much more on how to live our present life than He talked about the specifics of Heaven and eternal life,
I believe that salvation is a one-time event. It is followed, over an undefined period of time, by justification, edification, and sanctification. If our salvation is constantly needing to be renewed, that must mean it is waning. If it is waning, then it wasn't truly finished when Christ said that it was on the cross. Furthermore, if our salvation needs to be strengthened, then that would mean that we had in some way, with our sin, overpowered the work of God. To me, saying that we did something that counteracted what God did, is the deification of man.
There is a lot of truth in what you're saying. We should be saved to the idea of living a life glorifying to God, not saved to the idea of avoiding Hell. But be careful not to confuse God's intention; the Bible does not tell a story of "God for man," but one of "God for God."
Thank you for the kind response
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And a question if you do not mind.
Do you believe one can lose their salvation? I do not as I believe God is glorified mightily by saving us from our sin.
Thanks.
Do you believe one can lose their salvation? I do not as I believe God is glorified mightily by saving us from our sin.
Thanks.
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I am not speculating and nor am I ignoring or denying actual events of the Bible. God has literally destroyed entire civilizations, cities, and drowned every human and creature who walked on this earth save the ones on the Ark. is that not true?Zobel said:
You can speculate all you want. But I don't think you should ascribe your speculations to Holy Scripture or make them out as accusations against the Lord.
Sodom and Gormorrah are examples of God's wrath and he killed everyone in the cities. Even babies because of the sins of the fathers? Same with the flood. This is God's wrath, not Satan nor man's.
The laws were written for the descendants of Jacob and some people outside the tribes that followed mosaic laws. The scripture you quoted concerning sins of the father did not apply to those that did not follow the laws written by Moses or fell out of favor from God.
Just a few examples:
When he directed Saul to kill Agag, a descendant of Esau BTW, and all the Amalekites including families along with their animals, it was for the sins of the fathers.
Saul fell out of favor with God for his disobedience for not following his instructions to kill all and Samual had to hack Agag to death to satisfy God. Even Saul's son Jonathan was later killed in battle with Saul due to Saul's disobedience. Jonathan was a loyal follower of David and yet Samual told Saul both would die, indicating if you fall out of the favor of God, your family is at risk.
God will allow taking of love ones just to prove a point, refer to Job. The message is all the everlasting rewards are in heaven, everything here is superficial and temporal.
Essa was but one example I gave of God having an elect people but to believe Essa's descendants were blessed is a stretch. Every time a descendant is mentioned, he I is in the light of a villain, much like Haman, in the book of Esther.
God preselecting a group of people and calling them his own is the story of Israel, the Old Testament. Calvinist believe he planned and did the same with the bride for Christ. That he is all knowing and knows all endings.
We read the gospel and believe, that comes from God as that is what he told Peter when Peter ask him who he thought he was. Peter replied the Christ, son of God. Jesus replied you got that knowledge from not fresh and bone but from God the father.
Some read and don't believe. Why is that?
I am not a judge, I am a wretched sinner. Christ paid a huge price for my sins and I try to live a life that reflects the appreciation I have for the Grace that has been given to me and all the believers of the gospel of Christ. Part of that appreciate directs me to read the scripture daily and gather with other believers. That is what we are doing here so thanks.
None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.
So how do you reconcile the wrathful God with a Jesus who is the revelation of God himself?
Because to me, that is the crux of the issue.
I personally believe that you have to look at the OT through the lens of Jesus who is God revealed to us in the flesh.
I also believe in grace over wrath. Which is a lot of what the Gospel is about.
Because to me, that is the crux of the issue.
I personally believe that you have to look at the OT through the lens of Jesus who is God revealed to us in the flesh.
I also believe in grace over wrath. Which is a lot of what the Gospel is about.
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"I have loved you," says the LORD.Zobel said:
None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.
"Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:1-3a)
Take it up with Malachi.
PA24 said:"I have loved you," says the LORD.Zobel said:
None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.
"Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:1-3a)
Take it up with Malachi.
With all due respect you are picking Scripture out of context.
Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?
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I directly addressed that man. Read the whole chapter. That is about Israel and Edom. Nothing described in that chapter happened between Jacob and Esau.
Quote:
Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?
God is love...but He conveniently hates the same people I do.
The - holy! - Scriptures are a product of 3 centuries of prayer and very intense, even personal and politicized, debate.
Among whom?
Among whom?
I believe some read and do not believe because they choose not to by their free will.
I know you believe differently which is fine.
I know you believe differently which is fine.
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Redstone said:
The - holy! - Scriptures are a product of 3 centuries of prayer and very intense, even personal and politicized, debate.
Among whom?
You are correct.
I am pretty much Orthodox by theology but go to a non denominational church because I feel led there.
I believe individuals should be very careful when they interpret Scripture individually because it is pretty obvious we can read the same words and come up with different meanings.
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This stuff reminds me of a great phrase I heard the other day - fractally wrong. The whole thing is wrong, but it's also comprised of subunits of wrongness. But that's why you have to start with one. Since God did not hate Esau, and in fact blessed him and gave him an inheritance and made a nation of him, then these things you thought about God and the Edomites need to be reviewed. And if that, then also the view of St Paul when he refers to it in Romans. And if that, the whole thing.
Always a great question. I agree with you; I do not believe one can lose their salvation. I'll expand on a couple of different takes below. It's gonna be long and it's gonna end with an explanation about the deification of God because that is where so many of the mistakes regarding this argument are committed. For a better explanation on that and all of this, I strongly recommend any Christian out there watch the documentary "American Gospel." Aside from daily reading, worship and prayer, it is the best thing you can do with your life today. It doesn't deal with Calvinism and Arminianism or Mollenism at all, but a proper understanding of God will resolve many things the Church in America is failing to understand.
- Some would say that without enough good works or because of too heinous a sin committed, God would take salvation from them. For example, Little Timmy was such a good kid growing up in church and got baptized when he was 9, but in high school he got into partying and drinking and now he's 23 and living with his girlfriend and their 2yr old son so surely God would not save him. I disagree with this because I don't think God would offer someone salvation, then strip it from them when they fall short of his perfect standard. Little Timmy was probably never saved, but he may indeed be part of God's elect and in God's perfect timing, 2 weeks or 2 decades from now, he will draw Timmy to repentance when Timmy will deny his temptations and embrace a fulfilling life of obedience to God. God wouldn't strip his salvation because God doesn't just change his mind like that. Even after initially repenting, we ALL sin, which is why a mark of a believer is being a person who does not embrace their sin, but repents from it regularly. The gospel isn't just for people who aren't saved, it is necessary for the long believing pastor so that he can be reminded of the truth that the only way he can overcome any sin is by embracing Christ's power and not his own. This kinda brings me to the "once saved, always saved, but were they ever really saved" question. We all stumble, we all fail, but living in UNREPENTANT sin is different than sinning, mourning spiritually, and then repenting. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 tells us, "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." I don't think that this sin is saying that people who struggle with idolatry, homosexuality, or greediness are going to Hell, because why would ONLY these sins apply? I think what this verse is trying to communicate is that embracing sin in our lives or living in sin and not repenting from it is NOT the mark of a believer. A man who prioritizes his money above all else, and will not repent is not acting as a believer, or a man who acts upon his temptation to sleep with another man and sees no problem with it and will not repent is not acting as a believer. So, this one all comes down to repentance: repenting is necessary to become a believer, and it is true evidence that someone is a believer. If someone is not repenting of their sin regularly, they are not saved. Repenting is NOT a work of man though, otherwise I could both. We don't repent SO we are saved to be part of God's elect, we repent BECAUSE we are God's elect and his irresistible grace draws us to do so. The idea that a truly saved person can do something to surprise God and overcome God's salvation of them is to say we are more powerful than Him.
I definitely fall under the umbrella of "once saved, always saved, but if you are living a life celebrating and embracing your sin, 1 coronthians 6 says you should be VERY concerned about if you are saved, because a life loving sin is not the mark of someone who ever repented."
the next opinion is, "I don't think God would ever TAKE salvation from someone, but if someone wanted to reject God, then I don't think he would force them into staying saved." I haven't studied the origins of that statement but I bet that it's a pretty modern take coming from the people who don't want God to look forceful or mean. This gets into a topic in theology, I REALLY enjoy: sin nature. This is up for debate, but I believe in the dichotomy of human beings, we are made up of 2 things: a body and a spiritual soul. We are born sinners. Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." We are born with sinful flesh and a sinful nature. Jesus had a Heavenly Father and was in part fully God (haha) so he was not BORN sinful, he was not born with a tendency to sin like I was. He was still tempted like I am, but it's just in my nature to sin, unlike Him. Going back to the dichotomy, when we become saved, God gives us a new nature, the Holy Spirit lives in us, renewing our spirit and sanctifying our nature, but we still sin because our flesh is still sinful. And THAT is why revelation says we will receive a new body in heaven, a righteous body, free of sin, to go with our redeemed soul and nature. Where am I going with this? I almost forgot as I type it all out on my phone, but I remember now: someone who has repented and had their sinful nature replaced by God would never will to reject him. And even if they did, the fact that they were once saved, shows that God wants them to be saved, so for them to bring their salvation and the receipt and successfully return it to God, again, shows that their will is more powerful than His will, again: deification of Man! Now many would argue, "God is a good God and would not force someone to keep their salvation." For starters, just logically, that's a messed up statement, That's like saying a good parent wouldn't force their suicidal child to live. Theologically, that person is saying that God must allow a person to return their salvation in order for God to be good, which is judging God. Only God can judge. If we judge God's goodness, guess what! That's right, if we judge God's goodness it makes us above God: deification of man.
To me, this all comes down to the deification of man. We want to feel like God is not this all powerful, sovereign, creator of the universe, by whose very nature and existence, goodness is defined! God is not good because of his actions in our eyes, he is good because goodness is what he is. We fail to understand what he is doing is good, at times, because we lose sight of the fact that the BEST thing in the universe is for Him to be glorified, and along the way that means suffering for us. But not unjust suffering, suffering that we have earned and deserve, and God is not rejoicing to see us suffer, but he is confident in his sovereignty that our suffering will result in our good and His glory, by his design. The Bible says that Christ sits beside God and intercedes for us, because there is no joy in our suffering, but there is discipline.
So much of what I consider to be the greatest problems in the church today comes from terrible theology that makes man on the level of God. Obviously, Pastors such as Kenneth Copeland, Joel Ostend, Bill Johnson, Steven Furtick exhibit teaching that places so much emphasis on man. They say God is working with the ultimate goal of our good, but they incorrectly say that God is doing it by our standard of good. God is still good if I don't get rich, God is still good if my aunt's cancer takes her life, God is still good when humans suffer under rule of the Taliban, but to many pastors today, they miss the fact that God's goodness cannot be defined or judged by sinful humans, like ourselves. Now if anyone is still reading this, thanks, I might be about to ruffle some feathers. The prosperity gospel is embedded much deeper than those big pastors I just mentioned: if you are hearing sermons on Sunday morning that are giving you examples from the Bible to solve problems in your life, that is the prosperity gospel. The idea that you can solve your problems the way people in the Bible did like Abraham or David, and make your life better IS the prosperity gospel. This is taught by churches like gateway and upper room in north Texas. Sorry. I used to be into it. But it is a false gospel. If your pastor is teaching on 2 Kings and doesn't relate it to the gospel and our need for repentance, he wasn't ready to teach on that chapter.
Those huge pastors I just mentioned take deification of Man to the extreme by teaching that Jesus was nothing but a spirit filled man. And since we are also spirit filled people, we can do everything that he did. Again, I strongly recommend everyone watch the documentary I mentioned in the first paragraph. If you can't afford to rent it online for $3, I probably can't afford it any more than you can, but it absolutely fixed so may poor beliefs I had embraced that I will probably still Venmo you to watch it.
- Some would say that without enough good works or because of too heinous a sin committed, God would take salvation from them. For example, Little Timmy was such a good kid growing up in church and got baptized when he was 9, but in high school he got into partying and drinking and now he's 23 and living with his girlfriend and their 2yr old son so surely God would not save him. I disagree with this because I don't think God would offer someone salvation, then strip it from them when they fall short of his perfect standard. Little Timmy was probably never saved, but he may indeed be part of God's elect and in God's perfect timing, 2 weeks or 2 decades from now, he will draw Timmy to repentance when Timmy will deny his temptations and embrace a fulfilling life of obedience to God. God wouldn't strip his salvation because God doesn't just change his mind like that. Even after initially repenting, we ALL sin, which is why a mark of a believer is being a person who does not embrace their sin, but repents from it regularly. The gospel isn't just for people who aren't saved, it is necessary for the long believing pastor so that he can be reminded of the truth that the only way he can overcome any sin is by embracing Christ's power and not his own. This kinda brings me to the "once saved, always saved, but were they ever really saved" question. We all stumble, we all fail, but living in UNREPENTANT sin is different than sinning, mourning spiritually, and then repenting. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 tells us, "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." I don't think that this sin is saying that people who struggle with idolatry, homosexuality, or greediness are going to Hell, because why would ONLY these sins apply? I think what this verse is trying to communicate is that embracing sin in our lives or living in sin and not repenting from it is NOT the mark of a believer. A man who prioritizes his money above all else, and will not repent is not acting as a believer, or a man who acts upon his temptation to sleep with another man and sees no problem with it and will not repent is not acting as a believer. So, this one all comes down to repentance: repenting is necessary to become a believer, and it is true evidence that someone is a believer. If someone is not repenting of their sin regularly, they are not saved. Repenting is NOT a work of man though, otherwise I could both. We don't repent SO we are saved to be part of God's elect, we repent BECAUSE we are God's elect and his irresistible grace draws us to do so. The idea that a truly saved person can do something to surprise God and overcome God's salvation of them is to say we are more powerful than Him.
I definitely fall under the umbrella of "once saved, always saved, but if you are living a life celebrating and embracing your sin, 1 coronthians 6 says you should be VERY concerned about if you are saved, because a life loving sin is not the mark of someone who ever repented."
the next opinion is, "I don't think God would ever TAKE salvation from someone, but if someone wanted to reject God, then I don't think he would force them into staying saved." I haven't studied the origins of that statement but I bet that it's a pretty modern take coming from the people who don't want God to look forceful or mean. This gets into a topic in theology, I REALLY enjoy: sin nature. This is up for debate, but I believe in the dichotomy of human beings, we are made up of 2 things: a body and a spiritual soul. We are born sinners. Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." We are born with sinful flesh and a sinful nature. Jesus had a Heavenly Father and was in part fully God (haha) so he was not BORN sinful, he was not born with a tendency to sin like I was. He was still tempted like I am, but it's just in my nature to sin, unlike Him. Going back to the dichotomy, when we become saved, God gives us a new nature, the Holy Spirit lives in us, renewing our spirit and sanctifying our nature, but we still sin because our flesh is still sinful. And THAT is why revelation says we will receive a new body in heaven, a righteous body, free of sin, to go with our redeemed soul and nature. Where am I going with this? I almost forgot as I type it all out on my phone, but I remember now: someone who has repented and had their sinful nature replaced by God would never will to reject him. And even if they did, the fact that they were once saved, shows that God wants them to be saved, so for them to bring their salvation and the receipt and successfully return it to God, again, shows that their will is more powerful than His will, again: deification of Man! Now many would argue, "God is a good God and would not force someone to keep their salvation." For starters, just logically, that's a messed up statement, That's like saying a good parent wouldn't force their suicidal child to live. Theologically, that person is saying that God must allow a person to return their salvation in order for God to be good, which is judging God. Only God can judge. If we judge God's goodness, guess what! That's right, if we judge God's goodness it makes us above God: deification of man.
To me, this all comes down to the deification of man. We want to feel like God is not this all powerful, sovereign, creator of the universe, by whose very nature and existence, goodness is defined! God is not good because of his actions in our eyes, he is good because goodness is what he is. We fail to understand what he is doing is good, at times, because we lose sight of the fact that the BEST thing in the universe is for Him to be glorified, and along the way that means suffering for us. But not unjust suffering, suffering that we have earned and deserve, and God is not rejoicing to see us suffer, but he is confident in his sovereignty that our suffering will result in our good and His glory, by his design. The Bible says that Christ sits beside God and intercedes for us, because there is no joy in our suffering, but there is discipline.
So much of what I consider to be the greatest problems in the church today comes from terrible theology that makes man on the level of God. Obviously, Pastors such as Kenneth Copeland, Joel Ostend, Bill Johnson, Steven Furtick exhibit teaching that places so much emphasis on man. They say God is working with the ultimate goal of our good, but they incorrectly say that God is doing it by our standard of good. God is still good if I don't get rich, God is still good if my aunt's cancer takes her life, God is still good when humans suffer under rule of the Taliban, but to many pastors today, they miss the fact that God's goodness cannot be defined or judged by sinful humans, like ourselves. Now if anyone is still reading this, thanks, I might be about to ruffle some feathers. The prosperity gospel is embedded much deeper than those big pastors I just mentioned: if you are hearing sermons on Sunday morning that are giving you examples from the Bible to solve problems in your life, that is the prosperity gospel. The idea that you can solve your problems the way people in the Bible did like Abraham or David, and make your life better IS the prosperity gospel. This is taught by churches like gateway and upper room in north Texas. Sorry. I used to be into it. But it is a false gospel. If your pastor is teaching on 2 Kings and doesn't relate it to the gospel and our need for repentance, he wasn't ready to teach on that chapter.
Those huge pastors I just mentioned take deification of Man to the extreme by teaching that Jesus was nothing but a spirit filled man. And since we are also spirit filled people, we can do everything that he did. Again, I strongly recommend everyone watch the documentary I mentioned in the first paragraph. If you can't afford to rent it online for $3, I probably can't afford it any more than you can, but it absolutely fixed so may poor beliefs I had embraced that I will probably still Venmo you to watch it.
ok I have more than a moment. There's a lot in here that is at odds with the scriptures.
The Law is not merely for Israel. "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Christ Jesus."
Second... the Lord talking about how evil and sin was not merely about the Law but about Himself. " 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,and the teeth of the children are set on edge' As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die." Read the entirety of Ezekiel 18, it is the Lord explaining exactly why the righteous man lives, the wicked man dies, why sons do not bear the iniquity of their fathers or vice versa, and why people who repent are forgiven. This is not just about Israel.
The reason Agag had to be killed is because he was engaging in demonic worship. The Edomites drove out the Horites (Deut 2:12) You have to piece together the geneologies, but it all kinda goes wrong with Esau's son Eliphaz, who had a concubine named Timna (Gen 36:12). You find out that Timna was the sister of Lotan, who was a Horite chief (the son of Seir) (Gen 36:20-22,29). The Horites were demon worshipers, giant clans, which is why they had to be driven out. If you read carefully these were nephalim and basically the Edomites should have driven them out entirely as God commanded Israel to do, but they didn't (Timna). Hence Amalek produces the Amalekites, and therefore they, like the Horites, had to be driven out utterly. This is why the gold and livestock can't be taken as spoils - they're profane, unholy, they must be given back to God through destruction (1 Sam 15:3). And this is why Saul is punished for keeping it as himself. To swing back... is it because of Esau (who God blessed, read Gen 36, he increased his number so much the land couldn't support them v7) or is it because of the sin of his son Eliphaz, and his son's sin Amalek, and his son's sin Agag, in worshipping demons? The Amalekites were the ones who ambushed Israel at Rephidim (Exodus 17). This is part of the great war between God the rebellious demonic powers.
It's not about picking one or the other but making new, and through that new creation, saving all. This is the entire point St Paul makes in Romans - "Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone."
This is why it is so important, pivotal, to start with the simple fact that God did not hate Esau. Your entire picture of God, and salvation, and election is completely upside down.
The Law is not merely for Israel. "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Christ Jesus."
Second... the Lord talking about how evil and sin was not merely about the Law but about Himself. " 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,and the teeth of the children are set on edge' As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die." Read the entirety of Ezekiel 18, it is the Lord explaining exactly why the righteous man lives, the wicked man dies, why sons do not bear the iniquity of their fathers or vice versa, and why people who repent are forgiven. This is not just about Israel.
The reason Agag had to be killed is because he was engaging in demonic worship. The Edomites drove out the Horites (Deut 2:12) You have to piece together the geneologies, but it all kinda goes wrong with Esau's son Eliphaz, who had a concubine named Timna (Gen 36:12). You find out that Timna was the sister of Lotan, who was a Horite chief (the son of Seir) (Gen 36:20-22,29). The Horites were demon worshipers, giant clans, which is why they had to be driven out. If you read carefully these were nephalim and basically the Edomites should have driven them out entirely as God commanded Israel to do, but they didn't (Timna). Hence Amalek produces the Amalekites, and therefore they, like the Horites, had to be driven out utterly. This is why the gold and livestock can't be taken as spoils - they're profane, unholy, they must be given back to God through destruction (1 Sam 15:3). And this is why Saul is punished for keeping it as himself. To swing back... is it because of Esau (who God blessed, read Gen 36, he increased his number so much the land couldn't support them v7) or is it because of the sin of his son Eliphaz, and his son's sin Amalek, and his son's sin Agag, in worshipping demons? The Amalekites were the ones who ambushed Israel at Rephidim (Exodus 17). This is part of the great war between God the rebellious demonic powers.
Where did Samuel say this??Quote:
Jonathan was a loyal follower of David and yet Samual told Saul both would die, indicating if you fall out of the favor of God, your family is at risk.
You said God hated Esau, I did not say that Esau's descendants were blessed. You said God punished Edom because of Esau. This is just wrong.Quote:
to believe Essa's descendants were blessed is a stretch.
No, no, no, wrong. God did not preselect a group of people. He made an entirely new nation where there wasn't one before. That's what Israel is. And, through that nation, He blessed all the nations of the world. You speak of the Gospel? It is in the Psalms - "Arise, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are Your inheritance." "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD. All the families of the nations will bow down before Him."Quote:
God preselecting a group of people and calling them his own is the story of Israel, the Old Testament. Calvinist believe he planned and did the same with the bride for Christ. That he is all knowing and knows all endings.
It's not about picking one or the other but making new, and through that new creation, saving all. This is the entire point St Paul makes in Romans - "Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone."
This is why it is so important, pivotal, to start with the simple fact that God did not hate Esau. Your entire picture of God, and salvation, and election is completely upside down.
A couple of things.
I have never heard any of the preachers you mentioned say that God is still not good when bad things happen.
And Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, some of the Psalms, the 10 Commandments, and even Paul's letters give us much practical information as to how we are to live. And that living that way brings joy and peace.
I do not believe it is the "prosperity Gospel" for a pastor to teach us how we should live as Christians knowing that bad things can still happen and we need to rely on the Lord, who is still good, during these times.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems to me, like a lot of Calvinists I know, that sin and God's wrath are central in your theology.
Do we need a Savior? Absolutely.
But Jesus finished it. If we believe and have faith, the wrath does not affect us. I do not understand the emphasis on wrath. Sorry.
And please do not say I am deifying man. I am not. We just disagree on the character of God. We are both Christians and will live in glory so it is all good.
I have never heard any of the preachers you mentioned say that God is still not good when bad things happen.
And Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, some of the Psalms, the 10 Commandments, and even Paul's letters give us much practical information as to how we are to live. And that living that way brings joy and peace.
I do not believe it is the "prosperity Gospel" for a pastor to teach us how we should live as Christians knowing that bad things can still happen and we need to rely on the Lord, who is still good, during these times.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems to me, like a lot of Calvinists I know, that sin and God's wrath are central in your theology.
Do we need a Savior? Absolutely.
But Jesus finished it. If we believe and have faith, the wrath does not affect us. I do not understand the emphasis on wrath. Sorry.
And please do not say I am deifying man. I am not. We just disagree on the character of God. We are both Christians and will live in glory so it is all good.
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I think Calvinism gives a completely different philosophical view of salvation and what does salvation really mean as compared to Orthodoxy.
Gives one a different foundational view of God's character as revealed through Christ.
Also the whole legalistic vs ontological view of salvation makes a huge difference.
Gives one a different foundational view of God's character as revealed through Christ.
Also the whole legalistic vs ontological view of salvation makes a huge difference.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Yes and it also sort of bypasses that there is both a negative and positive aspect of salvation. The negative is well-hashed out, dealing with sin and the consequences of our sins, and death. But the positive is almost ignored in the West, its an afterthought (oh yeah after your saved also there's sanctification, too) when in the East it's probably the primary focus. We're saved from something but we're also saved toward something.