Zobel said:

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Yes and it also sort of bypasses that there is both a negative and positive aspect of salvation. The negative is well-hashed out, dealing with sin and the consequences of our sins, and death. But the positive is almost ignored in the West, its an afterthought (oh yeah after your saved also there's sanctification, too) when in the East it's probably the primary focus. We're saved from something but we're also saved toward something.

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Exactly.

Instead of "turn or burn" it is "turn and bear fruits".

And I interpret 1 Corinthians 6 differently as I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is here now. And of course people who reject God and willfully sin will not participate in the Kingdom either here or eternally.

dermdoc said:

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And I interpret 1 Corinthians 6 differently as I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is here now. And of course people who reject God and willfully sin will not participate in the Kingdom either here or eternally.

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Yeah, this is a really solid point. Jesus did not come just so we could know God's presence in heaven but also on Earth.

PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

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God is love...but He conveniently hates the same people I do.

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..then u of all people will like this I heard from John MacAuthur in one of his sermons

coming back from a Bible conference, Johnwas sitting next to Robert H. Schuller . First words out of Robert's mouth was "God loves you and I am trying"

dermdoc said:

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PA24 said:

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Zobel said:

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None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.

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"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:1-3a)



Take it up with Malachi.

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With all due respect you are picking Scripture out of context.

Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

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Esau descendants were not blessed, those are not my words. You guys are picking and choosing what you want to read. Direct quote.

I don't understand the wrath of God other than it is real and to be feared. I cant even comprehend heaven and the mind of God other than this life in the flesh is temporal, and God hates sin. Thank him every morning for the grace of Christ as my sins are great.

You asked

Quote:

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Why did God love Jacob but hated Esau? This was before Esau sold his birth rights.

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I picked this in particular to respond to because it is representatively wrong out of the rest of the statements in the post I originally responded to.

PA24 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

---

God is love...but He conveniently hates the same people I do.

---

..then u of all people will like this I heard from John MacAuthur in one of his sermons

coming back from a Bible conference, Johnwas sitting next to Robert H. Schuller . First words out of Robert's mouth was "God loves you and I am trying"

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Ooh, yeah. You lost me at "John MacArthur".

What happened to Esau after the loss of his birthright?

And after he died?

I believe you posted before he was "spiritually condemned" yet the Jews had no concept of hell. And it is not an OT belief.

PacifistAg said:

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PA24 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

---

God is love...but He conveniently hates the same people I do.

---

..then u of all people will like this I heard from John MacAuthur in one of his sermons.

coming back from a Bible conference, Johnwas sitting next to Robert H. Schuller . First words out of Robert's mouth was "God loves you and I am trying"

---

Ooh, yeah. You lost me at "John MacArthur".

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https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqnas-library/QA0278/did-god-reject-esaus-repentance

PA24 said:

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dermdoc said:

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PA24 said:

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Zobel said:

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None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.

---

"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:1-3a)



Take it up with Malachi.

---

With all due respect you are picking Scripture out of context.

Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

---

Esau descendants were not blessed, those are not my words. You guys are picking and choosing what you want to read. Direct quote.

I don't understand the wrath of God other than it is real and to be feared. I cant even comprehend heaven and the mind of God other than this life in the flesh is temporal, and God hates sin. Thank him every morning for the grace of Christ as my sins are great.

---

There is no need to fear God's wrath as Jesus has taken it away. It is finished.

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Gross.

Dermdoc, I have a friend who wants to come to your Bible study. When and what McDonald's is it held at? Thanks.

Fridays at 6:30 am. McDonalds at Rock Prairie and Longmire.

Oh that's right near where I live.

Come join us

Can't tonight. Heading to Houston for a gun-disabling event. But definitely will sometime.

Tough thing, Doc. I trust that God is sovereign. He knows all things and in Him all things hold together.

If this is Doc C, you're one of the greats. Thanks for representing Aggies well in the Beaumont community.

Thanks for the kind words.

God is sovereign. But I believe we have free will and He gives every person a choice to accept or reject Him.

If He does not, then He does not really love us and we can not really love Him.

Double predestination is not a term Calvin used but a term created to critique the limits of atonement.
I like Luther's perspective better, we were not invited into that room, we were given citizenship in the kingdom not the court room, he agreed to his predestination but rejected what you call double predestination because it conflicts with Gods mercy and the scripture that God desires that none should perish. and it is not our role to define the destiny or predestiny of the lost.

. Paul's says in Romans what if it
God made some vessels of wrath and I stress if, who are you to question God?
In other words the problem is the question itself.

Those who want amazing grace yet want to be jurors and editorialist in Gods courtroom miss the joy of their salvation.

, I am not going to bring my rules of what is fair, or question Gods mercy or justice, but trust in his blood.

Rationalism has limits in the Kingdom.
The early reformers trusted in Gods grace and the sacraments as a means of grace, the question strips the mystery of your individual faith.

Vessels of wrath and mercy is talking about nations.

Zobel said:

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Vessels of wrath and mercy is talking about nations.

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Agree.

PaulTony said:

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Double predestination is not a term Calvin used but a term created to critique the limits of atonement.
I like Luther's perspective better, we were not invited into that room, we were given citizenship in the kingdom not the court room, he agreed to his predestination but rejected what you call double predestination because it conflicts with Gods mercy and the scripture that God desires that none should perish. and it is not our role to define the destiny or predestiny of the lost.

. Paul's says in Romans what if it
God made some vessels of wrath and I stress if, who are you to question God?
In other words the problem is the question itself.

Those who want amazing grace yet want to be jurors and editorialist in Gods courtroom miss the joy of their salvation.

, I am not going to bring my rules of what is fair, or question Gods mercy or justice, but trust in his blood.

Rationalism has limits in the Kingdom.
The early reformers trusted in Gods grace and the sacraments as a means of grace, the question strips the mystery of your individual faith.

---

https://postbarthian.com/2014/05/31/john-calvin-confessed-double-predestination-horrible-dreadful-decree/

I don't agree with dermdoc on, well, anything. But he is right here.

The god of the Calvinist is most evil take on the christian god in particular and of all contemporary gods in general.

Creating beings intentionally for them to go to hell is flat out evil. There is no way around it.

Pro Sandy said:

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dermdoc said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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dermdoc said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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To me, when you say we can't have children because they might be damned to hell, there is no need to engage in conversation. Not starting from the absurd.

Read about covenant children.

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I believe in covenant children. And I never said we can't have children.

But if you believe in what I posted from the Westminster confession, do you not believe that God could foreordain your child to be damned?

How is that absurd if that is your belief?

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it is absurd because if anyone believes that not all are saved, then having children has the potential to have a child who isn't saved in the end. Complete free will may result in a child you have not being saved. Single predestination may result in a child you have not being saved. Doesn't seem unique to double predestination.

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The difference is that in double predestination your child has no choice.

They are preordained to death and hell.

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I think you are making a point without distinction. In all scenarios, except for universalism or no afterlife, a child may be born who will go to hell. Whether it was solely the will of God or their own will is seemingly without distinction.

Did I choose to be saved or did God choose to save me? Regardless I am resting solely in the death and resurrection of Christ. Knowing that God chose me gives me the reassurance I need when I screw up on a daily basis.

Why does God save some and not others? That is a tought question and sometimes the best we can understand is like we see in Job, God is God and we are not.

In arminianism, we could make arguments that if our children aren't saved, it's our fault for not raising them right. Or maybe we can still blame God that he is powerful enough to save but makes salvation dependent on us. But neither those arguments nor saying that it is hard for calvanists to have babies because God might predestined the child for hell really help us understand either perspective.

Just drive by any local OPC or PCA and compare the number of sprinter vans in the barking lot compared to a mainline church. Presbyterians have no issue having large families!

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I am in a CREC church, we are presby also, and I can attest that my wife and I only having 3 children puts us in the minority. Most have 5 or more in our church unless they are younger couples.

I used to be SBC before becoming Reformed.

Duncan Idaho said:

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I don't agree with dermdoc on, well, anything. But he is right here.

The god of the Calvinist is most evil take on the christian god in particular and of all contemporary gods in general.

Creating beings intentionally for them to go to hell is flat out evil. There is no way around it.

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Then you have no appropriate understanding of the absolute and perfect sovereignty of God.

dermdoc said:

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PA24 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

PA24 said:

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Zobel said:

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None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.

---

"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:1-3a)



Take it up with Malachi.

---

With all due respect you are picking Scripture out of context.

Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

---

Esau descendants were not blessed, those are not my words. You guys are picking and choosing what you want to read. Direct quote.

I don't understand the wrath of God other than it is real and to be feared. I cant even comprehend heaven and the mind of God other than this life in the flesh is temporal, and God hates sin. Thank him every morning for the grace of Christ as my sins are great.

---

There is no need to fear God's wrath as Jesus has taken it away. It is finished.

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

---

So let us sin more so that grace abounds more ...... right? .................. of course not!

The real Christian, while no longer condemned, is LESS prone to sin because the Christian evaluates the cost on Calvary paid for by Christ.

dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the kind words.

God is sovereign. But I believe we have free will and He gives every person a choice to accept or reject Him.

If He does not, then He does not really love us and we can not really love Him.

---

Let's just throw the whole book of Ephesians out.

To arrive at your conclusion we have to..... along with others.

"The real Christian"

Tsk.

TheEternalPessimist said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the kind words.

God is sovereign. But I believe we have free will and He gives every person a choice to accept or reject Him.

If He does not, then He does not really love us and we can not really love Him.

---

Let's just throw the whole book of Ephesians out.

To arrive at your conclusion we have to..... along with others.

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Have you ever thought that very smart, regenerate, dedicated Christians do not interpret Ephesians the same way you do? Or Calvin did?

And are not we supposed to get along with others? Did not Paul say that fairly often? To not be contentious? To lead quiet lives?

Zobel said:

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"The real Christian"

Tsk.

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This really bugs me. And makes me thankful for the gracious Calvinist posters on here.

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/exegeting-ephesians-28-10.html

TheEternalPessimist said:

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dermdoc said:

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PA24 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

PA24 said:

---

Zobel said:

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None of that says God hated Esau, or hated the Edomites because of Esau.

---

"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?"
Says the LORD.
"Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated" (Malachi 1:1-3a)



Take it up with Malachi.

---

With all due respect you are picking Scripture out of context.

Do you believe God "hates" creatures He created?

---

Esau descendants were not blessed, those are not my words. You guys are picking and choosing what you want to read. Direct quote.

I don't understand the wrath of God other than it is real and to be feared. I cant even comprehend heaven and the mind of God other than this life in the flesh is temporal, and God hates sin. Thank him every morning for the grace of Christ as my sins are great.

---

There is no need to fear God's wrath as Jesus has taken it away. It is finished.

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

---

So let us sin more so that grace abounds more ...... right? .................. of course not!

The real Christian, while no longer condemned, is LESS prone to sin because the Christian evaluates the cost on Calvary paid for by Christ.

---

Where did I say we should sin more?

Please do not put words in my mouth.

God bless you my brother in Christ.

TheEternalPessimist said:

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The real Christian, while no longer condemned, is LESS prone to sin because the Christian evaluates the cost on Calvary paid for by Christ.

---

I do think that as I continue on my Christian walk, I should sin less as I grow in sanctification, but man, many days I sure don't feel like it.

That positive growth I heard about in Methodist churches (Arminian). Two of the questions asked at ordination are "Are you going on to perfection?" and "Do you expect to be made perfect in love in this life?" I love the Holiness Movement and the good that has come out of it, but like David in Psalm 51, I often feel that my sin is ever before me.

So that model, of growing towards perfection, is good some days, but it crushes me when I do sin. A model I hear in multiple Presbyterian churches (Calvinist) is that as I grow in my Christian walk, the more I see my sinful nature and the more my dependency on Christ increases. My walk isn't defined by perfection in my actions, but in my growing need and love for Christ. So my faith isn't defined in my daily doings of less sinning, but when I sin of falling at the cross and thanking Christ for His mercy and grace even more.