Zobel said:

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That Azimov quite dehumanizes?



Its from 1980 so if it precedes laws and violence its got a really long tail effect.

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I can't tell if you're intentionally misinterpreting it or if it actually isn't clicking for you that it's being trotted out to look down on a group of people over an issue which in those case has a heavy political split.

Perhaps lay off the sauce?

That quote is good because it was written 40 years before the current crisis. It has been readily applicable many times before this crisis, it is applicable during this crisis, and will be applicable after this crisis. Because it's a good general observation.

Whether you belong to that cult of ignorance is situation specific, and is up to you.

To be fair that Asimov quote could be applied to any almost any country in the world.

At any time. It reminds me of that quote about how the younger generation is prone to sloth which has been applied to every generation. It seems like it describes how every generation feels, not how the world is.

I don't think we're getting less knowledgeable. The common clay of the new west these days is often arguing about off target spike protein pathology and trying to compare different types of immunity. They're wrong, but they're having semi-reasonable conversations about non-trivial topics.

It's an improved moron compared to the ones burning witches, claiming that cowpox vaccines turn people into cows, or that they're some kind of mark of the beast.

The lower-functioning morons still exist, and we have them on this site, but in general I think their prevalence is decreasing.

“The risk of hospitalization (was) eight times higher” among people with only vaccine-induced immunity, compared to people with natural immunity from having had Covid, with the Delta variant predominate.https://t.co/YdhZIpJGDw

— Eli Klein (@TheEliKlein) August 27, 2021

Seems pretty conclusive then. Some of the numbers in the study have broad confidence intervals since some of the events occurred in low numbers, but the statistical power is there and the effect is really large so it doesn't really matter. It would be nice to see a prospective study.

It seems like an important paper with an important result. I don't think there's any scientific justification for segregating recovered from vaccinated individuals for policy purposes. There are however social justifications.

I do not think it will result in any policy changes, as I think the CDC is concerned about pox parties. I don't know if people are really that stupid. Maybe.

It would be very funny to me if a business fired all their vaccinated employees and kept only the naturally infected employees for safety purposes.

Perfectly plausible assertions and with data to back is fine and a far cry vaccine denial and touting weird medicine as wonder cures.

We always knew that natural immunity works. That's how we got by through most of history. We just don't like culling the heard to get there.

I would compare that paper to this one -
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.18.21262237v1.full.pdf

Quote:

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Private households are randomly selected on a continuous basis from address lists and previous surveys to provide a representative sample across the UK...Individuals were asked about demographics, behaviours, work, and vaccination uptake...At the first visit, participants were asked for (optional) consent for follow-up visits every week for the next month, then monthly for 12 months from enrolment. At each visit, enrolled household members provided a nose and throat self-swab following instructions from the study worker. From a random 10-20% of households, those 16 years or older were invited to provide blood monthly for antibody testing from enrolment. From April 2021, additional participants were invited to provide blood samples monthly to assess vaccine responses, based on a combination of random selection and prioritisation of those in the study for the longest period independent of test results). Throughout, participants with a positive swab test and their household members were also invited to provide blood monthly for follow-up visits after this.

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It has, to me, a superior design vs looking at medical records due to potential bias from healthcare seeking behavior.

On the other hand, hospitalizations are probably rock solid, and the UK study doesn't measure that.

When you put them together, you get these statements

- once you're vaccinated, you have a slightly lower risk of becoming pcr positive at all
- however, if you are infected, you're more likely to belong to the lower Ct group if youre vaccinated vs previously infected
- both provide high protection against serious illness, but maybe previous infection is better

Not sure how confidence I feel about that. Also annoying that the Israeli paper table S1 and S2 are missing / error and no CI is given for the 1 vs 8 in the hospitalization groups.

I'll have to look at that later. Like you said, the design is obviously much better.

I don't think it really matters exactly how immune recovered people are. It seems generally like they have at least comparable levels of immunity. I think there's little to no scientific justification to consider them as distinct from vaccinated individuals for safety purposes. Do you agree?

I'm also not particularly well read on this exact topic.

Yes, agree on all points. It's an academic question with no practical value. Except perhaps if they correlate really tightly, we have people with 6+ months longer "experience" as recovered versus vaccinated, so maybe they can help us guess how long protection from severe illness really lasts.

RAB91 said:

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“The risk of hospitalization (was) eight times higher” among people with only vaccine-induced immunity, compared to people with natural immunity from having had Covid, with the Delta variant predominate.https://t.co/YdhZIpJGDw

— Eli Klein (@TheEliKlein) August 27, 2021

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That doesn't really surprise me but if you haven't had Covid you should get the vaccine, why roll the dice with something that has a much greater chance of given you a serious outcome? If you've had it I could see not getting it but also getting it as those that get both have the greatest antibody response. Probably overkill but could see someone doing it.

That study has nothing to do with the value of the vaccine. It should have no impact on anyone's decision to get vaccinated (other than the previously infected, for whom it should have a small impact).

Yeah that's basically what I said

My company approved my religious exemption a couple of weeks ago. Now will it make me more at risk for future layoffs, maybe. But that's an acceptable risk at this point. And hopefully down the road these mandates will lose their bite.

Orthodox Texan said:

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Irwin M. Fletcher said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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Irwin M. Fletcher said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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schmendeler said:

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perhaps the worst thing to come about from the internet is that people ignorant of things think they know what they are talking about because they have found other ignorant people that are also confidently incorrect so they feel validated.

this covid vaccine refusal is a perfect and recent example.

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Because science right! I'm sure it has nothing to do with control.

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You could argue that all vaccine mandates are a form of control. Childhood vaccines that are required by school districts as an example. They want to control the amount of people that get a disease. Or a private business wants to control its employees from getting sick and being out potentially costing them money. There is a reason behind the control. It's not control just to have control.

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There's always a balance of freedom and control and people accept that all the time. That's nothing new. However what is new is the pace and scope associated with covid. They are essentially trying to account for everything, putting a microscope down at every level of existence possible. A perfect example is Australia. Their lockdowns are now basically martial law. Their interactions with reality are now completely guided through the government and their number of cases weren't even close to ours.

The idea of getting a vaccine and being included in society or not getting and being excluded is a huge issue. This is why I laugh when a few of you just keep on stating the same thing over and over again. Your scope is so small and your view on how society functions is laughable. It has something to do with the materialist view. "Take this" and everything will be fine. Well clearly that's not the case with numerous governments going to extremes. If you don't take it then basically you're out.

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When none of your looney predictions come to pass will you come back to this thread and own them. I mean here in America, when there isn't martial law of people being forced to get a vaccine? I'll be happy to own it if that comes to pass.

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These aren't loony predictions. Martial law would be hard to impose in Texas. For the US my concern is segregation. It just won't work with our society. I do think we should pay heavy attention to other western countries. What's happening in Australia is insane. They have police officers yelling at protesters calling them ******* and pepper spraying them or firing rubber bullets. Huge crowds are breaking through police barricades. This kind of reaction isn't surprising given how bad the lockdown is and how violent the police have been to everyone. The videos are truly disturbing.

I'm not wrong about this. Segregation won't work here and the riots in western countries are getting crazier by the day. My son is in Eanes ISD. A parent there ripped a mask off a teacher the other day. This is hitting at the core of society. The fact that some of you don't care to pay attention to this or dismiss it as conspiracy theories is completely irrelevant. You are the one not living in reality.

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So it has been a year and not one of your looney predictions even came close to happening here in America. They never tried any of your stupid predictions which I knew they would not because, well I can reason. Are you going to double down??