dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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Didn't you say you would pity them?

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That's different than saying I have a problem with that person or their beliefs.

I would pity an atheist that accepts what they are taught without question as well too.

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You are a better man than me. If I was an atheist I would not give a rat's behind.

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I doubt that.

If you are the type that gets joy or satisfaction from doing something good, that doesn't disappear with God. Same goes for the joy you get from building relationships, loving your kids, helping a patient, helping a friend, helping a stranger. And the shame and pain you feel from hurting someone else doesn't go away with God either.

People that say they would become amoral monsters without God are either sociopaths or they don't give themselves enough credit. And I don't think you are a sociopath.

Orthodox Texan said:

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Also on a note about Christ. Yes there are numerous stories of gods or characters going to the underworld and saving someone the belly of the beast, visiting, and even rising from the dead. Christ's story is different. Christ as God goes to hades when he dies and destroys death for everyone. Every aspect of His story reaches the limit of storytelling which is why Christ is and fills the hierarchy of reality. Everything else is incomplete without Christ.

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Like I said. Christianity is unique . . . Just like every religion.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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Also on a note about Christ. Yes there are numerous stories of gods or characters going to the underworld and saving someone the belly of the beast, visiting, and even rising from the dead. Christ's story is different. Christ as God goes to hades when he dies and destroys death for everyone. Every aspect of His story reaches the limit of storytelling which is why Christ is and fills the hierarchy of reality. Everything else is incomplete without Christ.

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Like I said. Christianity is unique . . . Just like every religion.

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That's the conclusion you get from my comments?

Orthodox Texan said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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Also on a note about Christ. Yes there are numerous stories of gods or characters going to the underworld and saving someone the belly of the beast, visiting, and even rising from the dead. Christ's story is different. Christ as God goes to hades when he dies and destroys death for everyone. Every aspect of His story reaches the limit of storytelling which is why Christ is and fills the hierarchy of reality. Everything else is incomplete without Christ.

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Like I said. Christianity is unique . . . Just like every religion.

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That's the conclusion you get from my comments?

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A believer thinks their religion is unique? Yea, that's the conclusion from your comment.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a religion whose adherents don't think it presents the most important, impactful story ever for all mankind. And in each case all those who don't follow that religion just say "OK, that's nice".

I once went down the rabbit hole of watching Scientologists talk about their faith and they so often speak with such conviction and certainty that what the believe is true and how the entire world is defined by that "truth" without most people even realizing it. They're completely unable to view the world outside of the religious framework they've built around themselves.

Seems strangely relevant to this thread somehow.

Most of the greatest minds, doctors, lawyers, judges, generals, etc. have been Christians.

Scientology seems to consist of weird movie stars.

Pretty stark difference between Thomas Aquinas or Newton and John Travolta and Ron Hubbard,

dermdoc said:

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Most of the greatest minds, doctors, lawyers, judges, generals, etc. have been Christians.

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How does this add to or detract from, or really even relate to, what Rocag said?

Look at the fruits of Scientology vs Christianity.

Maybe it is just me but it has been implied that atheists are just as driven as Christians to do "good" and charity and whatever yet almost every major hospital and university has been primarily funded and/or started by Christians.

I have been in medicine since 1977 and hospital visits, prison visits, charitable sacrificial giving always seems to come from churches or Christian organizations.

Natural disasters the same way.

Natural disasters come from Christian organizations?

By that you mean most of the greatest minds, doctors, lawyers, judges, generals, etc. within the predominately Christian culture you are familiar with have been Christians. Go ask someone born and raised in Asia or India if they would agree with that claim. I doubt they do.

And really my point was about people who are incapable of understanding people who don't share their worldview or the assumptions it is based on. You'll know them by how often they try to tell other people "what they really believe..."

Fair enough. But will you admit that the greatest universities and hospitals in the world are not in the places you mentioned? And almost always have Christian origins at the least.

We have the Salvation Army, Red Cross, Catholic chairs ties all of which are Christian origins who help the countries you mentioned. I know of no similar atheist, Scientology, Buddhist, etc. organizations. do you?

Where are the equivalents in Asia? How much charity assistance do Christian countries get from those places?

Where are all the atheistic charities?

The real answer here is that you rarely find atheists doing anything in the name of atheism. There are a couple of atheistic organizations out there that try to create a sense of community among atheists and do beneficial things but for the most part they're pretty unsuccessful. Christians see a reason to be a part of church community, atheists on the other hand don't typically have any reason to seek out and associate with other atheists.

There are plenty of secular charities and foundations that support the public good out there and I think that's where you'll find most atheists putting their efforts. I'd also point out that atheists still make up a small percentage of the population and there is still open distrust towards atheists held by many people as lots of polls have shown. For a long time in America those who don't believe felt it was best to keep that disbelief to themselves or face negative consequences.

Orthodox Texan said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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Also on a note about Christ. Yes there are numerous stories of gods or characters going to the underworld and saving someone the belly of the beast, visiting, and even rising from the dead. Christ's story is different. Christ as God goes to hades when he dies and destroys death for everyone. Every aspect of His story reaches the limit of storytelling which is why Christ is and fills the hierarchy of reality. Everything else is incomplete without Christ.

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Like I said. Christianity is unique . . . Just like every religion.

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That's the conclusion you get from my comments?

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Yes, You look around and see a Christianity shaped hole in the world that only Christianity can complete. The Muslim sees an Islamic shaped hole and the Hindu sees a Hinduism shaped hole.

You talk about Chris fulfilling the hierarchy of reality and going to Hell and destroying death for everyone. These aren't objective facts and they cannot be discussed or debated by people unless they have already pre-decided that there is a hierarchy of reality that can only be fulfilled by Christ, that there is a Hell that Christ can visit, and that death can be destroyed, but only by the Son of God giving his life.

Its like you are saying reality and existence only makes sense if it contains a Christian shaped hole that, fortunately, Christianity can fill.

I respect your position and opinion, but you are discussing with someone (me) that does not look around and see a Christianity shaped hole that can only be made complete through Christianity.

Dilettante said:

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Death of humans? I'm usually not a fan. Mosquitos I prefer dead. Otherwise it depends on the thing that's dying.

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But what if a scientist took human genes and put them in a mosquito ebryo?!?!1??

Rocag said:

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The real answer here is that you rarely find atheists doing anything in the name of atheism. There are a couple of atheistic organizations out there that try to create a sense of community among atheists and do beneficial things but for the most part they're pretty unsuccessful. Christians see a reason to be a part of church community, atheists on the other hand don't typically have any reason to seek out and associate with other atheists.

There are plenty of secular charities and foundations that support the public good out there and I think that's where you'll find most atheists putting their efforts. I'd also point out that atheists still make up a small percentage of the population and there is still open distrust towards atheists held by many people as lots of polls have shown. For a long time in America those who don't believe felt it was best to keep that disbelief to themselves or face negative consequences.

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Fair enough. I am not too familiar with purely secular non Christian based charities. Or with atheists or any other religions who freely go to impoverished areas here and overseas to build schools, hospitals, provide safe drinking water, etc.

I was told in this thread that atheists were just as giving and charitable as Christians. See it occasionally in real life but very far between.

Every free clinic, soup kitchen, etc. I have ever been associated with had Judeo/Christian roots and funding.

I would think the atheists and other religions would want to prove they were even more charitable and giving than Christians.

And where are all the great Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc. charities?

Has anyone ever heard of these groups and doing what Christian missionaries do as far as building schools,hospitals, providing medical care, clean water, etc.

I look at fruits.

History and longevity helps too. Christianity purposefully set up those universities, hospitals, and charities specifically to expand their reach and teachings into the rest of the non Christian world. Yes, they wanted to do good, but they also wanted to convert the locals. It wasn't exactly altruistic motives.

Harvard for example was specifically established to train clergy for the new commonwealth. A lot has changed since then and I don't think many Christians view Harvard that way anymore, or vice versa.

Funny you should mention that. One of the charities I wholeheartedly support is Engineers Without Borders. They specialize in designing and building infrastructure such as roads, water lines, and sanitation to areas that are severely lacking in those things. They are, to my knowledge, not associated with any church or religious group. My background is in civil engineering and so I can easily see how important the work they are doing is.

There are similar secular charities and organizations everywhere if you take even a brief moment to look for them. And yes, they include clinics and food pantries and homeless shelters and drug addiction programs. You phrase your question as if you expect life to be a competition to show which religion is the most charitable. That seems like a very strange point of view to me.

Good point by Quad Dog. Also, this discussion on religious vs secular ignores the fact that many of the larger charitable donations in the past century or so have come from wealthy individuals whose motivations weren't always strictly religious in nature. How do we classify those?

dermdoc said:

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Fair enough. But will you admit that the greatest universities and hospitals in the world are not in the places you mentioned? And almost always have Christian origins at the least.

We have the Salvation Army, Red Cross, Catholic chairs ties all of which are Christian origins who help the countries you mentioned. I know of no similar atheist, Scientology, Buddhist, etc. organizations. do you?

Where are the equivalents in Asia? How much charity assistance do Christian countries get from those places?

Where are all the atheistic charities?

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That the best universities and hospitals are in the most affluent countries of the world should not be a shock. And that the universities and hospitals in an overwhelmingly majority Christian country are started by Christians should not be a shock. 1000 years ago, the best institutions might have been found in Islamic Baghdad. For much of history, it might have been China or Egypt or Mesopotamia.

I could also point out that these great universities and hospitals are all started by white people. Does this mean that white people are better than other races? The question is whether or not Christianity, specifically, is the reason for the success of Western universities and hospitals rather than the relative power and wealth of the West.

And there are also counter examples to your points. . . Republic of Congo is 90% Christian and one of the most violent and poor and corrupt countries in the world. Same goes for Haiti and Kenya. And don't forget that the entire continent of South America is basically Catholic and they are not the home of the greatest universities and hospitals in the world.

The best universities and hospitals will follow affluence. Not long from now, atheist communist China will be the technological center of the world . Not because atheism is special or communism is special or Chinese people are special. It will be the center because, despite their many problems, they have the money and political will to push for advancing technologies.

Rocag said:

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Funny you should mention that. One of the charities I wholeheartedly support is Engineers Without Borders. They specialize in designing and building infrastructure such as roads, water lines, and sanitation to areas that are severely lacking in those things. They are, to my knowledge, not associated with any church or religious group. My background is in civil engineering and so I can easily see how important the work they are doing is.

There are similar secular charities and organizations everywhere if you take even a brief moment to look for them. And yes, they include clinics and food pantries and homeless shelters and drug addiction programs. You phrase your question as if you expect life to be a competition to show which religion is the most charitable. That seems like a very strange point of view to me.

Good point by Quad Dog. Also, this discussion on religious vs secular ignores the fact that many of the larger charitable donations in the past century or so have come from wealthy individuals whose motivations weren't always strictly religious in nature. How do we classify those?

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I am not trying to make it a competition.

Just seems strange that one religion, out of the others has been so much more altruistic and charitable.

Why do you think that is?

I am told on here over and over again about all the other religions are the same.

Why the difference in fruits?

And I wish the other religions did more. And atheists. But the vast majority of charitable giving and actions in the world are done by Christians.

Saudi Arabia and some of the Arab countries are the most affluent in the world. Where are all the charities? Volunteer efforts?

Why the difference in religions?

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough. But will you admit that the greatest universities and hospitals in the world are not in the places you mentioned? And almost always have Christian origins at the least.

We have the Salvation Army, Red Cross, Catholic chairs ties all of which are Christian origins who help the countries you mentioned. I know of no similar atheist, Scientology, Buddhist, etc. organizations. do you?

Where are the equivalents in Asia? How much charity assistance do Christian countries get from those places?

Where are all the atheistic charities?

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That the best universities and hospitals are in the most affluent countries of the world should not be a shock. And that the universities and hospitals in an overwhelmingly majority Christian country are started by Christians should not be a shock. 1000 years ago, the best institutions might have been found in Islamic Baghdad. For much of history, it might have been China or Egypt or Mesopotamia.

I could also point out that these great universities and hospitals are all started by white people. Does this mean that white people are better than other races? The question is whether or not Christianity, specifically, is the reason for the success of Western universities and hospitals rather than the relative power and wealth of the West.

And there are also counter examples to your points. . . Republic of Congo is 90% Christian and one of the most violent and poor and corrupt countries in the world. Same goes for Haiti and Kenya. And don't forget that the entire continent of South America is basically Catholic and they are not the home of the greatest universities and hospitals in the world.

The best universities and hospitals will follow affluence. Not long from now, atheist communist China will be the technological center of the world . Not because atheism is special or communism is special or Chinese people are special. It will be the center because, despite their many problems, they have the money and political will to push for advancing technologies.

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And you really believe atheist Communist China is going to build hospitals and universities like Christians have in the West?

dermdoc said:

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I would think the atheists and other religions would want to prove they were even more charitable and giving than Christians.

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Why? Charitable giving shouldn't be made a weapon to be used in the culture wars.

dermdoc said:

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And where are all the great Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc. charities?

Has anyone ever heard of these groups and doing what Christian missionaries do as far as building schools,hospitals, providing medical care, clean water, etc.

I look at fruits.

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With all due respect, I did about 3 minutes of google searching to compare Christian giving and charity work to Muslims and found that I don't think you know what you are talking about. Even if its true that Christians give more to charity, the fact that you don't know of any Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim charities simply means that you know literally nothing about that topic. Not that I'm an expert. . . . but I'm not making claims about a topic that I am 100% ignorant of.

dermdoc said:

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And you really believe atheist Communist China is going to build hospitals and universities like Christians have in the West?

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They will be different from hospitals and universities in the West, but you are foolish if you think the West is going to hold on to its technological dominance.

dermdoc said:

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Saudi Arabia and some of the Arab countries are the most affluent in the world. Where are all the charities? Volunteer efforts?

Why the difference in religions?

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Read This

Atheists aren't a team. You think the majority of individual atheists are motivated in their charitable giving to beat the Christians? Really? It's not a factor.

Dilettante said:

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Atheists aren't a team.

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Dilettante said:

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Atheists aren't a team. You think the majority of individual atheists are motivated in their charitable giving to beat the Christians? Really? It's not a factor.

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Not what I was told earlier on this thread. I was told atheists gave charitably just like Christians.

Look, comparing atheism or any other religion to Christianity is reasonable.

Not admitting that Christianity produces better fruit is ridiculous.

And why is that?

Well, now you are just repeating the same thing over and over and ignoring the responses. I'm not sure what else to say.

jonb02 said:

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Robin Hood Was A Thief said:

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Two things:

1. What order? The universe is chaotic

2. So much of this thread (and discussions on this board) essentially on some level presuppose that God is the Abraham God. Rejection of God is rejection of him. Well, it's all personal opinion and faith and none of it can be backed up by any objective truth. And because you are embracing the God you were socialized to believe in means you are necessarily rejecting other gods. Is there no fear that you might be wrong and should have believed in Shiva? If you can believe in the Abraham god, you can just as easy believe in Shiva.

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Exactly. How did something as complex as life (order) originate from this chaotic universe? If you want me to believe that order was born out of chaos you would also have me believe that a room full of chimps banging away at a typewriter (chaos) would ever produce a legible sentence let alone a Shakespearean masterpiece. It's much easier to see and understand that a complex design came from a complex designer (God).

I would go so far as to say that complex design requires a complex designer.

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I see this example a lot, and it's a bad one. The probability of a chimp banging on a typewriter producing Shakespeare has a probability strictly greater than zero. Therefore the probability of a group of chimps ever producing Shakespeare depends on your sample size, and if you make the sample size arbitrarily large it will almost surely happen.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Well, now you are just repeating the same thing over and over and ignoring the responses. I'm not sure what else to say.

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Why is Christianity different than every other religion as far as charitable everything?

Simple answer. It's not.

If you want to compare fruit, in most categories the Mormons kick your ass

https://religionnews.com/2016/11/29/utah-and-mormons-are-the-most-generous-and-not-just-on-givingtuesday/

And let's say it was- so what? One religion is going to be the most ___ at any moment in time. Why is this somehow evidence that it's actually true but not the other ____ that some other religion leads?

Aggrad08 said:

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Simple answer. It's not.

If you want to compare fruit, in most categories the Mormons kick your ass

https://religionnews.com/2016/11/29/utah-and-mormons-are-the-most-generous-and-not-just-on-givingtuesday/

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Disagree. Where are all the Mormon hospitals and universities?