schmendeler said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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Robin Hood Was A Thief said:

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Two things:

1. What order? The universe is chaotic

2. So much of this thread (and discussions on this board) essentially on some level presuppose that God is the Abraham God. Rejection of God is rejection of him. Well, it's all personal opinion and faith and none of it can be backed up by any objective truth. And because you are embracing the God you were socialized to believe in means you are necessarily rejecting other gods. Is there no fear that you might be wrong and should have believed in Shiva? If you can believe in the Abraham god, you can just as easy believe in Shiva.

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The only reason you think the universe has no order is because Copernicus said the math is better with the sun at the center. There is truth in that but it completely removed meaning in humans which contains greater truths. He said to pay more attention to math and not your experience. The idea was so powerful that it collapsed the previous worldview. People started doubting their senses because of the mathematical truth that the earth is no longer at the center. So humans no longer fit in the universe, as was the case in the Aristotelean worldview that everything had a telos.

Then comes Galileo who doubled down on Copernicus by stating math is the language of the universe. Since this is Galileos reality, he divided the world into primary and secondary properties. Primary is math and secondary is love, meaning, beauty, etc. So everything you experience is an afterthought since it's your isolated will that imposes these things on the universe. Essentially you are at drift it in a meaningless chaotic universe because these guys made claims of meaning that they can't prove. It's a horrible story full of assumptions and it's why we still search for meaning.

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It's been a while since geocentrism got repped on here. Excellent.

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Haha I actually rep the worldview in Genesis before the fall which you could call "dentrocentism". It incorporated heaven unlike the geocentric worldview. The Copernican revolution is interpreted as a reiteration of the narrative of the fall which is about the gain of knowledge at the expense of spiritual insight. It all comes down to the removal of the spiritual world and loss of meaning. It's fairly easy to trace when looking down the evolution of philosophy and science. Ancient cosmology is very interesting and necessary to understand if you are looking into meaning. Good article posted below.

https://thesymbolicworld.com/articles/how-the-scientific-revolution-changed-our-worldview/

This description skips a few steps, but pretty much, yeah.

Primordial soup -> Me

Wow. Googling "dentrocentism" returns 0 results. That's pretty impressive.

Quad Dog said:

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Wow. Googling "dentrocentism" returns 0 results. That's pretty impressive.

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It's just a term coined by a symbolic author looking at ancient worldviews, particularly the narrative of the fall in Genesis. He's in the article linked which is a very good one if you can follow it. Obviously the worldview of Adam and Eve in the garden was different from everything else.

I think the term might actually be "dentrocentrism"

Ya thats it. The link shows an image for three worldviews dentro-geo-helio. dentrocentrism can be understood as a spiritual worldview before the fall. This is going to look a lot different than splitting spiritual and material worldviews as we see today.

Both geo and heliocentrism are silly. There is no debate between the two, because they're both nonsense.

Dilettante said:

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Both geo and heliocentrism are silly. There is no debate between the two, because they're both nonsense.

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There was plenty of debate between the two and it had far greater consequences and importance than anything discussed today. The point is that these figures in history make determinations on what they think is spiritual reality just based on what they observe and record in the material.

That's the only reason we have the secular mind and why the everyday person will make claims that appear to be neutral or people who think they can strip away things in the world to their essence based off material knowledge. The only reason things exist is because of pattern that we can understand which reveals itself from the seemingly infinite amount of other things around you. This is the same pattern found throughout the Bible. It's the union of heaven and earth which is the joining of spiritual and corporeal realities (knowledge). Spiritual reality informs corporeal reality with meaning and purpose. Matter expresses spirit by making it visible and tangible.

There was debate between geocentrism and heliocentrism, but there no longer is because they're both clearly wrong for reasons that weren't obvious hundreds of years ago.

Any profundity in your second paragraph is lost on me, since I have no clue what you mean. The flowery language typically associated with spiritual mumbo-jumbo is not something I have the ability to interpret. It could be nonsense or it could be that you've succinctly summarized the meaning of life. I have no idea how to tell.

Dilettante said:

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There was debate between geocentrism and heliocentrism, but there no longer is because they're both clearly wrong for reasons that weren't obvious hundreds of years ago.

Any profundity in your second paragraph is lost on me, since I have no clue what you mean. The flowery language typically associated with spiritual mumbo-jumbo is not something I have the ability to interpret. It could be nonsense or it could be that you've succinctly summarized the meaning of life. I have no idea how to tell.

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Yes the point is that the consequences are still here from those debates. There were huge assumptions on meaning just because they made some scientific advancements. I tend to think the biblical stories get it right so ya the idea that humans create order out of chaos which gives shape to existence should be right. Just knowing that doesn't give you meaning though. Participation in that union will. In summary go to a liturgical church.

How is this different than most other major religions?

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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This video seems like it might offer some useful knowledge on the effects of rejecting God.

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Thank you for this. Have not watched all of it but reinforces, to me at least, the hopelessness of life without God.

Almost like they create their own hell.

And I used to think the Christian life was restrictive and boring. Now I understand it is abundant and full of joy and peace.

I used to think the atheist life was hopeless and meaningless. Now I understand it is abundant and full of joy and peace.

Most variation in contentment is between individuals, not between religions.

Dilettante said:

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I used to think the atheist life was hopeless and meaningless. Now I understand it is abundant and full of joy and peace.

Most variation in contentment is between individuals, not between religions.

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Fair enough my friend. Just going by personal anecdotal stuff which is meaningless in the big picture.

dermdoc said:

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Dilettante said:

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I used to think the atheist life was hopeless and meaningless. Now I understand it is abundant and full of joy and peace.

Most variation in contentment is between individuals, not between religions.

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Fair enough my friend. Just going by personal anecdotal stuff which is meaningless in the big picture.

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I don't think that either of your statements were a problem. I just think that we all find meaning and fulfillment in different things and different ways.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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Dilettante said:

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I used to think the atheist life was hopeless and meaningless. Now I understand it is abundant and full of joy and peace.

Most variation in contentment is between individuals, not between religions.

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Fair enough my friend. Just going by personal anecdotal stuff which is meaningless in the big picture.

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I don't think that either of your statements were a problem. I just think that we all find meaning and fulfillment in different things and different ways.

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I'm sorry but the west can't escape the Christian frame. There is no clean room for you to start. The atheist is always a dragging around the dead body of the god he doesn't believe in. Which is the exact reason why Christian thinkers tend to view the secular world or atheism as a myth. A negation can't exist.

Even when the atheist uses "religion" in a sentence they are firmly grounded in the Christian frame. The idea that there are other religions is purely based on Christian assumptions wherever European languages are spoken and often beyond that now. If you really want to truly understand what you believe in as a modern secular person in the west then you have to look at Christian foundations and no this is not going to a mega church or looking at Baptist history. The evolution of consciousness must be looked out from the earliest Christian events and thinkers through the split with Rome and the fragmentation of the Protestant reformation/emerging scientific field. All I see are a bunch of people piggy back riding on Christianity, all the while living in complete ignorance of the culture that has been passed down to them or worse rejection and pride in thinking you have something better.

It's the second thing, rejection and pride that we think we have something better. Christianity has some good parts, which I'd like to keep. I'm appropriating your culture.

I don't "have to" think about all that nonsense you listed. It's totally optional, and I don't see any benefit in it.

And what was the Christian frame built on?

Was it built on a foundation on prophecies and experiences handed down from God directly and on the life and words of Jesus? Or was it built on the backs of ancient religions, cultures, and morals, and possibly on the words of a charismatic teacher 2000 years ago? When one believes the former, it is apparent that Christianity is unique and that its inspirations come straight from God.

Virgin births predate Christianity. As do Creation myths, floods, miracles, prophecies, martyrdom, rising from the dead, healing the sick, and on and on. The Golden rule predates Christianity. As do laws against theft, murder, rape, etc. I'm not saying that all of Christianity is directly derivative from other religions. Christians love to point out that Christianity is the only religion that [fill in the blank]. Uniqueness doesn't make anything true. Christianity is unique. . . just like every other religion. So, to the non-believer, the Christian is dragging around the dead bodies of many other gods they don't believe in.

Moral philosophy is an ever evolving thing and each era builds upon the previous. Yes, being raised in the West, my own moral philosophy is greatly influenced by Christianity. But that isn't the sole influence.

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All I see are a bunch of people piggy back riding on Christianity, all the while living in complete ignorance of the culture that has been passed down to them or worse rejection and pride in thinking you have something better.

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And I see a bunch of people holding onto a culture and set of beliefs passed down to them and thinking that those beliefs are special solely on account of them being passed down to them. I pity the person who accepts what they are handed down without question and without the boldness to consider what might be better.

Dilettante said:

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It's the second thing, rejection and pride that we think we have something better. Christianity has some good parts, which I'd like to keep. I'm appropriating your culture.

I don't "have to" think about all that nonsense you listed. It's totally optional, and I don't see any benefit in it.

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Eternal life is not a benefit?

kurt vonnegut said:

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And what was the Christian frame built on?

Was it built on a foundation on prophecies and experiences handed down from God directly and on the life and words of Jesus? Or was it built on the backs of ancient religions, cultures, and morals, and possibly on the words of a charismatic teacher 2000 years ago? When one believes the former, it is apparent that Christianity is unique and that its inspirations come straight from God.

Virgin births predate Christianity. As do Creation myths, floods, miracles, prophecies, martyrdom, rising from the dead, healing the sick, and on and on. The Golden rule predates Christianity. As do laws against theft, murder, rape, etc. I'm not saying that all of Christianity is directly derivative from other religions. Christians love to point out that Christianity is the only religion that [fill in the blank]. Uniqueness doesn't make anything true. Christianity is unique. . . just like every other religion. So, to the non-believer, the Christian is dragging around the dead bodies of many other gods they don't believe in.

Moral philosophy is an ever evolving thing and each era builds upon the previous. Yes, being raised in the West, my own moral philosophy is greatly influenced by Christianity. But that isn't the sole influence.

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All I see are a bunch of people piggy back riding on Christianity, all the while living in complete ignorance of the culture that has been passed down to them or worse rejection and pride in thinking you have something better.

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And I see a bunch of people holding onto a culture and set of beliefs passed down to them and thinking that those beliefs are special solely on account of them being passed down to them. I pity the person who accepts what they are handed down without question and without the boldness to consider what might be better.

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Interesting comment.

So if you are an atheist and someone is joyful and happy with their parents "hand me down" beliefs then what is the problem?

Dilettante said:

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It's the second thing, rejection and pride that we think we have something better. Christianity has some good parts, which I'd like to keep. I'm appropriating your culture.

I don't "have to" think about all that nonsense you listed. It's totally optional, and I don't see any benefit in it.

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So what do you see as a benefit in your life? Many atheists and secular in general coming off the talking points of Pinker, Harris, and others that speak of progress. What are you progressing towards?

dermdoc said:

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So if you are an atheist and someone is joyful and happy with their parents "hand me down" beliefs then what is the problem?

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There is no problem - which is what I said a few posts ago. A lot of people get joy and comfort and fulfillment from religion and for many of those people it is a very positive influence on their lives. For others, religion is not a source of joy and comfort and those things are found elsewhere.

Didn't you say you would pity them?

kurt vonnegut said:

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And what was the Christian frame built on?

Was it built on a foundation on prophecies and experiences handed down from God directly and on the life and words of Jesus? Or was it built on the backs of ancient religions, cultures, and morals, and possibly on the words of a charismatic teacher 2000 years ago? When one believes the former, it is apparent that Christianity is unique and that its inspirations come straight from God.

Virgin births predate Christianity. As do Creation myths, floods, miracles, prophecies, martyrdom, rising from the dead, healing the sick, and on and on. The Golden rule predates Christianity. As do laws against theft, murder, rape, etc. I'm not saying that all of Christianity is directly derivative from other religions. Christians love to point out that Christianity is the only religion that [fill in the blank]. Uniqueness doesn't make anything true. Christianity is unique. . . just like every other religion. So, to the non-believer, the Christian is dragging around the dead bodies of many other gods they don't believe in.

Moral philosophy is an ever evolving thing and each era builds upon the previous. Yes, being raised in the West, my own moral philosophy is greatly influenced by Christianity. But that isn't the sole influence.

Quote:

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All I see are a bunch of people piggy back riding on Christianity, all the while living in complete ignorance of the culture that has been passed down to them or worse rejection and pride in thinking you have something better.

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And I see a bunch of people holding onto a culture and set of beliefs passed down to them and thinking that those beliefs are special solely on account of them being passed down to them. I pity the person who accepts what they are handed down without question and without the boldness to consider what might be better.

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Cool we are getting somewhere. There are universal themes located throughout history in every culture. What is unique in Christianity is the ability to integrate pagan ideas and rituals into a master narrative that works. Now that will sound odd to some Christians but it's true. One of the reasons why it's true is the fundamental language of creation we find in the Old Testament stories and the stories located throughout the world. Some of the most interesting are as your mentioned the flood and even more crazy giants and demons.

Christianity is universal in the sense of the proper fitting of stories into something complete. Almost like an equation. There are pagan stories that would blow your mind when it comes to their intuition and prophesy aimed directly at what Christianity inevitably full filled. It's also why churches in the east sometimes even have icons of Plato. The Greeks were able to get many pieces right but the story was and is still playing out. There isn't another frame that can do that. Some people try like universal churches and stuff like that but they aren't fitted properly. What they have is actually death. Diversification without proper unification means death.

Christ is and fills the grand narrative by bringing all people together. That doesn't mean they will accept it but the choice is there regardless if you are a modern westerner or you lived on a remote island and never heard of any other religion.

Atheists are more like a branch that will cut off from the tree. They were given more of the story and therefore knowledge of what death will look like. It's no surprise when you look at the world wars.

dermdoc said:

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Didn't you say you would pity them?

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That's different than saying I have a problem with that person or their beliefs.

I would pity an atheist that accepts what they are taught without question as well too.

dermdoc said:

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Dilettante said:

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It's the second thing, rejection and pride that we think we have something better. Christianity has some good parts, which I'd like to keep. I'm appropriating your culture.

I don't "have to" think about all that nonsense you listed. It's totally optional, and I don't see any benefit in it.

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Eternal life is not a benefit?

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It benefits me in the same way pots of gold at the end of rainbows benefit me. If I believed in it and chose to seek it, and it exists and I could find it, then it would provide a substantial benefit.

However, I don't think I communicated what I meant to. I wasn't saying that there's no benefit to holding a Christian worldview. I was trying to say that because I don't, it doesn't feel necessary to consider the findings of the council of Elrond or some old theologian when I consider the framework of my beliefs.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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Didn't you say you would pity them?

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That's different than saying I have a problem with that person or their beliefs.

I would pity an atheist that accepts what they are taught without question as well too.

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You are a better man than me. If I was an atheist I would not give a rat's behind.

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What are you progressing towards?

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Death, for sure. Probably not getting social security.

I have sort of generic goals for my personal life too, but nothing incredibly unique. They feel unique to me of course since it's my first time pursuing them, but I can recognize that most people share goals like helping others, contributing something to the world, and experiencing the joys that come from figuring life out.

If I'm picking up atheist talking points, they're coming from this website as far as I can tell. I didn't renew my newsletter subscription, so I no longer get them in print.

You were an atheist right? Did you give a rats behind?

Dilettante said:

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Quote:

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What are you progressing towards?

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Death, for sure. Probably not getting social security.

I have sort of generic goals for my personal life too, but nothing incredibly unique. They feel unique to me of course since it's my first time pursuing them, but I can recognize that most people share goals like helping others, contributing something to the world, and experiencing the joys that come from figuring life out.

If I'm picking up atheist talking points, they're coming from this website as far as I can tell. I didn't renew my newsletter subscription, so I no longer get them in print.

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It's not about figuring life out. It's what you worship and everyone worships something. What is your view on death?

Never made it to atheism. And that is a long time ago to remember.

Also on a note about Christ. Yes there are numerous stories of gods or characters going to the underworld and saving someone the belly of the beast, visiting, and even rising from the dead. Christ's story is different. Christ as God goes to hades when he dies and destroys death for everyone. Every aspect of His story reaches the limit of storytelling which is why Christ is and fills the hierarchy of reality. Everything else is incomplete without Christ.

Death of humans? I'm usually not a fan. Mosquitos I prefer dead. Otherwise it depends on the thing that's dying.