Should Christians read the Book of Jasher?

11,951 Views | 117 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by PacifistAg
ramblin_ag02
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codker92 said:

If you are so knowledgeable about in Christian things then what is your definition of post modernism?
That's sort of the whole point isn't it? It isn't "my definition" of post-modernism. The very idea that we each have our own definitions is very post-modern in itself.

I can try to give a good account of the accepted definition, but it gets tricky across different disciplines. Post-modern in politics means something different than in art, philosophy, history, religion, etc. All are characterized as being something later and different than the "modern age". The modern age consists of the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, the automobile, steam and then fossil fuel power, the rise of liberal Republics, Communism, and Fascism, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and radical empiricism.

Post-modernism is defined by a lot of different things. First is the rejection of absolute truth. Truth becomes relative based on individuals, groups, or time periods. This is in contrast to radical empiricism, where truth is universal and can be demonstrated repeatedly. It is defined by a belief that one thing is not inherently better than another. Democracy is not inherently better than monarchy or communism or fascism. All have advantages and disadvantages and your position and perspective determines whether you think it is better or not. The subjective experience of individuals and groups becomes more important than any measurable facts when it comes to determining truth.

We see a lot of post-modern thought in the current racial movements. Even if defined metric show decreased arrests, improved standard of living, and improved wealth among minorities compared to 30 years ago, the subjective feeling of persecution is more important when determining the truth of racial disadvantage. I had an English friend that joked they would always vote in the Liberal party when social services were doing badly, and they would vote in the Tories when the economy was doing badly. That is a very post-modern way of thinking. Each ideology having known advantages and known disadvantages but neither being inherently superior and no one zealous for either one.

Post-modernism can also be accurately applied to the Internet Age, the environmental movement, the Cold War and really any conflict after nuclear weapons were developed. These things are all beyond the scope of modernity and distinctly different.

As far as Christians are concern, Protestants are mostly modern. But you could say some very liberal Christian groups are post-modern. Those that have female clergy, marry same sex couples and teach the Bible as a self-help book. They rely on subjective experience over any objective standard such as Scripture or church authority. Catholics are chronologically post-modern following Vatican 2, but it's really a misnomer since it doesn't include any of the emphasis on subjectivity that we see with other post-modern thought. The Eastern Orthodox aren't even modern. They are at the latest medieval in thought, though they would probably argue for having solely ancient thought. My theology has some post-modern elements, like open theism and a change for redemption for those who haven't heard the Gospel.

Sorry for the long post. This is still only scratching the surface. It's a huge topic that applies to just about every field.
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codker92
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I am only talking about post modern Christianity though. Believe it or not. There is a post modern sector of every single denomination. In reality the post moderns worship themselves. They say that as long as enough people say 2+2=4 then it is true. They say that God exists because they believe He exists. They don't believe because they believe God, but because they want to take the credit.
PacifistAg
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codker92 said:

I think it is funny how you base your entire world view on labels and not on actual principles or facts and data. As long as someone is X they are ok. But it does not matter what they actually think or do.


What on earth are you blathering about now? None of this makes sense...at all.
codker92
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You just used the word Orthodox as if it was impossible for an Orthodox Christian to be a postmodern. Here is an article by an Orthodox leader attempting to exploit the post-modern mindset. It specifically says that Orthodox leaders should exploit Protestant questioning of the modern world and logic.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2012/10/03/orthodoxy-ancient-orthodoxy-and-the-postmodern-world/

Nothing makes me happier than to see you angry haha
Zobel
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Did you read that article? Because for one, it says basically the opposite of what you said, and for two, it doesn't say anything about exploiting Protestant questioning.
PacifistAg
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codker92 said:

You just used the word Orthodox as if it was impossible for an Orthodox Christian to be a postmodern. Here is an article by an Orthodox leader attempting to exploit the post-modern mindset. It specifically says that Orthodox leaders should exploit Protestant questioning of the modern world and logic.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2012/10/03/orthodoxy-ancient-orthodoxy-and-the-postmodern-world/

Nothing makes me happier than to see you angry haha

Zobel addressed the article sufficiently. But a couple points about your last sentence: 1) not sure why you think I'm angry. I think your posts are ridiculously absurd. They don't make me angry. 2) why would any Christian derive happiness from making others angry? That's not only not consistent with how Christians should be, but also it's just sad.
codker92
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I disagree 100%.

Quote discussing the post modernization of Christians:
Orthodoxy has a peculiar place within all of this. For unlike other forms of Christian thought, Orthodoxy belongs to the Via Antiqua. It was never modernized. Orthodox thought assumes that true knowledge of God will be consistent with what has been known within the life of the Church through the ages. Innovation is not a virtue.

They are claiming that authority comes from the church, which is Israel. They neglect that the church includes the Kingdom of Judah. They say truth is whatever they say it is. Their truth is only true if it is true.

I don't consider Orthdoox Christianity. I consider it paganism.
codker92
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I disagree 100%.

Quote discussing the post modernization of Christians:
Orthodoxy has a peculiar place within all of this. For unlike other forms of Christian thought, Orthodoxy belongs to the Via Antiqua. It was never modernized. Orthodox thought assumes that true knowledge of God will be consistent with what has been known within the life of the Church through the ages. Innovation is not a virtue.

They are claiming that authority comes from the church, which is Israel. They neglect that the church includes the Kingdom of Judah. They say truth is whatever they say it is. Their truth is only true if it is true.

I don't consider orthodox Christian. I consider it paganism.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

I don't consider orthodox Christian. I consider it paganism.

While you espouse things that would make Ayn Rand proud. Go figure.
codker92
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I get it, ever since we discovered all the scripture that the Catholics and Orthodox destroyed at Qumran your entire tradition is a falsehood. It's ok. You are just a young Christian. You need milk.

Who is Ayn Rand?
PacifistAg
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I'm not Orthodox or Catholic. And I've been in the church my whole life, fully dedicated for 10+ years. Condescension and arrogance, especially when unearned, are very unbecoming.
codker92
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Where did I say you were Catholic or Orthodox? I just said they burned scriptures and people they didn't agree with.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

Catholics and Orthodox destroyed at Qumran your entire tradition is a falsehood

Oh and you said nothing about burning people.
Zobel
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That doesn't say authority comes from the church. It says that knowledge of God is consistent through time, and has been known within the Church. They never say truth is whatever they say it is.

You're so post-modern it's painful.
codker92
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You are so dishonest it's shameful. Here is another quote from your leader after discussing how the Orthodox Church is pre modern:

Orthodoxy has a peculiar place within all of this. For unlike other forms of Christian thought, Orthodoxy belongs to the Via Antiqua. It was never modernized...

...This pre-modern perspective is inherently similar to many aspects of a post-modern perspective.

codker92
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They did that also.
Zobel
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I love it. Tell it again.
Ordhound04
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codker92 said:

I get it, ever since we discovered all the scripture that the Catholics and Orthodox destroyed at Qumran your entire tradition is a falsehood. It's ok. You are just a young Christian. You need milk.

Who is Ayn Rand?


You realize the Dead Sea scrolls were Jewish texts right? I think you may be confusing the Dead Sea Scrolls with Nag Hammadi. It's a common mistake. But given that the Gnostics and Essenes were radically different groups, it's also a very dangerous mistake to make.
PacifistAg
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codker92 said:

They did that also.

That may be true. I simply pointed out that you didn't say it because you claimed you did, while denying that you said I was either Catholic or Orthodox. Both statements by you that were easily proven to be incorrect.
codker92
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Haha so the facts are true but I misspoke? Haha You people are incredible. Ok I made one misstep. But guess what? Just because I make one misstep does not mean that everything I do is a misstep. That is the fundamental problem that you pre and post moderns have, you think that just because someone makes one mistake that they can't do anything.
codker92
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You are so dishonest it's shameful. Here is another quote from your leader after discussing how the Orthodox Church is pre modern:

Orthodoxy has a peculiar place within all of this. For unlike other forms of Christian thought, Orthodoxy belongs to the Via Antiqua. It was never modernized...

...This pre-modern perspective is inherently similar to many aspects of a post-modern perspective.

He is talking about how similar the pre modern orthodox church is to post modern mindsets. I.E. how the Orthodox church is in many ways post-modern.

I feel like I will have to teach you all the ABC's next. Either that or start writing in bigger letters. I don't think a font exists that is big enough for the letters required for you to understand anything. You poor postmoderns. Just replace postmodernism with paganism and we have the result.


747Ag
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codker92 said:

I feel like I will have to teach you all the ABC's next. Either that or start writing in bigger letters. I don't think a font exists that is big enough for the letters required for you to understand anything. You poor postmoderns. Just replace postmodernism with paganism and we have the result.

It's as if you are speaking a different language. Perhaps a gnostic language even.
codker92
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Classic roman move. Accuse them of "heresy" and then ostracize or burn at the stake etc.
747Ag
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codker92 said:

Classic roman move. Accuse them of "heresy" and then ostracize or burn at the stake etc.


PacifistAg
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codker92 said:

Haha so the facts are true but I misspoke? Haha You people are incredible. Ok I made one misstep. But guess what? Just because I make one misstep does not mean that everything I do is a misstep. That is the fundamental problem that you pre and post moderns have, you think that just because someone makes one mistake that they can't do anything.


No, that's not what I said. You denied saying I was either Catholic or Orthodox, and claimed to have said something else that you did not, in fact, say. Both were easily proven wrong.

You clearly do not understand what either pre or post modern mean, or you do and are simply redefining the terms to suit you But you shouldn't be dismissed because you were caught in a lie. You should be dismissed because what you say is absurd.
PacifistAg
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747Ag said:

codker92 said:

I feel like I will have to teach you all the ABC's next. Either that or start writing in bigger letters. I don't think a font exists that is big enough for the letters required for you to understand anything. You poor postmoderns. Just replace postmodernism with paganism and we have the result.

It's as if you are speaking a different language. Perhaps a gnostic language even.

Well, he's somehow come to the point that race-based apartheid and violent colonization is compatible with the Christian faith, and denies the entire concept of faith, so this is no surprise.
Zobel
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You need only read the following sentence to see why both the pre-modern and post-modern perspectives are similar: they both "offer a critique of modernism for the very reason that modernism was itself a rejection of Orthodoxy."

Critiquing modernity does not make you a postmodernist.

In no way is the Orthodox Church postmodern. The idea itself is flatly idiotic.

Your consistent approach to relativize terms and invent definitions for words to suit your argument is incredibly postmodern.
codker92
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I quoted your leader. You are fighting him.
Zobel
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He's not my leader.

I don't disagree with him. I disagree with you.
Ordhound04
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codker92 said:

I quoted your leader. You are fighting him.


Yeah, but the fact that you have a tendency to conflate the dead sea scrolls with Nag Hammadi, your radical re-interpretation of what postmodernism means, and your overall tone implies that you were taking this quote out of context, possibly deliberately so.
Zobel
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What is interesting about this discussion is codker's continual use of "facts and data," his contempt for postmodernism and his fluid use of terms as he sees fit. He's a postmodern person living in a postmodern world that doesn't like it, so he's attempting to re-engage with modernism (via rationalism) but is doing so in an fundamentally postmodern way. Note well that while he enshrines logic and reason, and takes for granted that scriptures can be authoritative to find something that is actually true (assuredly not postmodern), he rejects the claims of institutions and authority structures and subjects truth to a criterion rooted in his own understanding (incredibly postmodern).

And of course he doesn't like Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy is the natural enemy of both modernism and postmodernism.

To modernism the faith says - while your rationality can examine the faith, it can't explain it or justify it. Your attempts to subject the experience of grace to a systematic set of claims which can be evaluated based on a mutually-agreed system of human laws is a fool's errand. The Truth transcends dogma and doctrine and is ineffable - ultimately apophatic theology is truer than cataphatic, but neither are True, because He is unconstrained by created and subordinate truths. Instead, taste and see that the Lord is good.

To postmodernism the faith says - your rejection of absolutes is foolishness. There is a fundamental principle in which all claims can be rooted, but isn't a human construction but a Divine Reality. Truth is not contingent on personal experience or context - Truth is a Person. Instead, come to know Him.

codker92
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The Nag Hammadi did not exist until well after the dead sea scrolls. Where do you think I conflate the two?
codker92
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That's not what the orthodox priest said. He said the Orthodox and post modernism have a lot of similarities.
Zobel
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Go ahead and quote it. I'll wait.
PacifistAg
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