Zobel said:

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Homosexuality, adultery, pornography were all relatively common in prechristian western history.

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I never said they weren't. However, they were on the periphery. The United States government has never sanctioned immoral behavior until the last 30 years or so. Abortion not withstanding. If you can't see things getting worse, I don't know what to tell you.

Pierow said:

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Zobel said:

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Homosexuality, adultery, pornography were all relatively common in prechristian western history.

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I never said they weren't. However, they were on the periphery. The United States government has never sanctioned immoral behavior until the last 30 years or so. Abortion not withstanding. If you can't see things getting worse, I don't know what to tell you.

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You are coming from a perspective and country that has enjoyed Christian dominance since its inception. But "history" has seen far worse. Once Christianity is no longer the "norm", you should expect to see all sorts of debauchery.

schmendeler said:

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Pierow said:

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Zobel said:

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Homosexuality, adultery, pornography were all relatively common in prechristian western history.

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I never said they weren't. However, they were on the periphery. The United States government has never sanctioned immoral behavior until the last 30 years or so. Abortion not withstanding. If you can't see things getting worse, I don't know what to tell you.

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Slavery was not immoral? You might need to take a breather, you're out of it. That's ONE example.

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You did get me on that one. That was definitely the major immorality sanctioned by the US government.

And genocide.

Zobel said:

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But they weren't on the periphery. Homosexuality was normative in Ancient Greece. Pederasty was normative in Rome. Incredibly casual sex was normal, extramarital sex was normal, rape was normal, slavery was normal, et cetera ad nauseam. To describe better or worse implies a reference or trajectory. But if you say "in history" that must include time before say the past two hundred years.

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Again, it was never government sanctioned anywhere in history. I'm not saying it wasn't tolerated, or that it wasn't practiced. But God demonstrated how he feels about sexual immorality. The church used to uphold values, and morals, and preached against it to society as a whole. We don't preach Christ crucified to the populace the way we used to.

https://www.cfr.org/article/changing-landscape-global-lgbtq-rights

Are you saying equal rights for LGBTQIA people is a problem? And what do you mean by "government sanction"?

Zobel said:

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Pederasty was absolutely "government sanctioned" in history. As was transgenderism (look up the initiation rites of the priests of Cybele). And orgies. And homosexuality. And ritual sex. And slavery. And many many other things we post-Christians abhor.

Again, you need to widen your lens of what is "history".

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Do you argue with everyone just for the sake of argument? you seem to do this on every thread. Show me this proof of government sanctioned pederasty. Was everything you mentioned prior to Christ's first earthly visit? If so, it was prior to the Holy Spirit's influence a monks the world population, was it not?

PacifistAg said:

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Are you saying equal rights for LGBTQIA people is a problem? And what do you mean by "government sanction"?

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Yes, I am. It's a horrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It is an evil thing.

He's simply pointing out that you're wrong. That's not arguing.

Equal rights are evil?

Macarthur said:

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He's simply pointing out that you're wrong. That's not arguing.

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Proof, that's all I ask.

Macarthur said:

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Equal rights are evil?

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Why not equal rights for rapists? Murderers? Pedophiles? What's the harm? Sorry, if God Almighty says it's a sin, that it's evil, then I agree with that. Just saying equal rights for any little thing you want to, doesn't make it a moral, righteous thing.

Pierow said:

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Macarthur said:

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Equal rights are evil?

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Why not equal rights for rapists? Murderers? Pedophiles? What's the harm? Sorry, if God Almighty says it's a sin, that it's evil, then I agree with that. Just saying equal rights for any little thing you want to, doesn't make it a moral, righteous thing.

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As was pointed out, consent. But nobody is saying rights = morality. Lust isn't moral, but you have the legal right to lust. You're conflating the law and morality.

Pierow said:

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Zobel said:

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Pederasty was absolutely "government sanctioned" in history. As was transgenderism (look up the initiation rites of the priests of Cybele). And orgies. And homosexuality. And ritual sex. And slavery. And many many other things we post-Christians abhor.

Again, you need to widen your lens of what is "history".

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Do you argue with everyone just for the sake of argument? you seem to do this on every thread. Show me this proof of government sanctioned pederasty. Was everything you mentioned prior to Christ's first earthly visit? If so, it was prior to the Holy Spirit's influence a monks the world population, was it not?

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You made a false statement. He's pointed that out and corrected you. Humility is important for learning and growing. Don't dig your heels in. Listen. Learn.

Does it take two to argue? I suggested your view of history is narrow. You should either qualify your reference for "worse" or go learn that things were a LOT worse in the categories you mentioned in the ancient world.

As for government sanctioned. Many places this was not only held up as the ideal or pinnacle of human love and relationship but was a fundamental part of military life. So beyond government allowed or incredibly common social practice this goes into government-required. You could look up the erastes-eromenos practices of Sparta for a concrete example.

Bryanisbest said:

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Acts 1:12. The distance from Jerusalem, location of first Church, is 2000 cubits, a "Sabbath Day's Journey; 2000 cubits distance from Jerusalem back to Mt Olivet. I believe this 2000 cubits is symbolic for the length of the grace age, 2000 years. Jesus was born in the year 0 and was 33 1/2 years old at His death. 2000 years (cubits) after 33 1/2 AD will be 2033, the year Christ will touch down as predicted in Acts 1:12 on Mt Olivet, 2000 years after the first church was planted in Jerusalem.

Notice also in Joshua 3, the people were told to stay 2000 cubits (years) behind the Ark. This would signify the Ark, a type of Christ, crossing Jordan (symbolic of death) 2000 years before the people (the church) signifying the rapture at the end of the tribulation.

Get ready folks. Jesus coming back in 2033, give or take 6 years due to uncertainty of the year of his birth.

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Is this satire? I can't tell if you actually believe this crap.

Zobel said:

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Does it take two to argue? I suggested your view of history is narrow. You should either qualify your reference for "worse" or go learn that things were a LOT worse in the categories you mentioned in the ancient world.

As for government sanctioned. Many places this was not only held up as the ideal or pinnacle of human love and relationship but was a fundamental part of military life. So beyond government allowed or incredibly common social practice this goes into government-required. You could look up the erastes-eromenos practices of Sparta for a concrete example.

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The majority of the progress over the centuries since Christ's visit has been brought about by Christian work ethic, Christian principal, and Christians just living out their lives. Yes, the world has gotten better over time. However, the advantages we had and spreading the gospel without being persecuted are eroding. It's going to get harder, and harder to profess our faith. It's been predicted, prophesied, and inevitable. History was replete with sexual immorality. How did God handle rampant immorality? He flooded the world, and sent down fire and brimstone. He has been extremely patient. But the marginalization of Christianity, and biblical morality, albeit predicted, is becoming clear. Whether you recognize it or not, is irrelevant. Do you expect ungodly, unchurched people (those who do not know God, are children of the devil, and if they die in their sins end up in hell), not to codify humanistic morality and eventually prosecute Christians given this climate? If you believe this world is getting better, why bother speaking biblical truths at all?

Quote:

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How did God handle rampant immorality? He flooded the world, and sent down fire and brimstone.

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Pre-flood = world was corrupt and full of violence
Sodom = arrogance, plenty of food, and carefree ease, but she did not help the poor and needy

Neither of these were attributed to LGBTQIA people, although those descriptions do sound like America.

None of that answers my questions. You say equal rights are evil. What rights should I be stripped of as a trans woman? My faith in Him is secure, so start there.

And I believe the Bible is God-breathed through flawed humans. It's why we see genocide and infanticide attributed to God. Plus, the Bible doesn't actually address trans people.

PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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How did God handle rampant immorality? He flooded the world, and sent down fire and brimstone.

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Pre-flood = world was corrupt and full of violence
Sodom = arrogance, plenty of food, and carefree ease, but she did not help the poor and needy

Neither of these were attribute to LGBTQIA people.

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"Those who hold that the sons of God were ancient rulers argue that the kings of the earth had corrupted themselves to the point that they was claiming to be half-god and half man. These so-called offspring of the gods were worshipped by their people. The entire earth became corrupt to the place where God had to destroy it with a Flood. In the New Testament Noah is called a righteous man in contrast to the rest of humanity.

Scripture makes a tremendous emphasis on sin as the cause of the Flood. Humankind was multiplying and people were making decisions on marrying based upon fleshly choice rather than the will of God.

Furthermore, the Bible clearly says wickedness increased to the degree that God had no choice but to wipe out all of humanity and start over. The Scripture stresses that humankind's wickedness had come to the place where judgment was necessary. They were not only evil, they were evil continually. There was no shame whatsoever and no desire for godliness. Compare the statements of Genesis 6:5 with 1:31. Also compare Genesis 6:5 with 1:4 where God, at first, saw all things good, and then saw all things bad."

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, you couldn't be more wrong. Go back and read the account of Lot, the angelic guests, the local populace, and his daughters. How do you think sodomy got its name?

Dude, I literally just wrote what the Bible says about them in Genesis and Ezekiel. I thought you believe every word.

PacifistAg said:

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Dude, I literally just wrote what the Bible says about them in Genesis and Ezekiel. I thought you believe every word.

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I don't see where you quoted chapter and verse.

PacifistAg said:

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Dude, I literally just wrote what the Bible says about them in Genesis and Ezekiel. I thought you believe every word.

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You're right, I do believe every word.

"Genesis chapter 19 records the two angels, disguised as human men, visiting Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed. The Bible then informs us, "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom both young and old surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them'" (Genesis 19:45). The angels then proceed to blind all the men of Sodom and Gomorrah and urge Lot and his family to flee from the cities to escape the wrath that God was about to deliver. Lot and his family flee the city, and then "the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities..." (Genesis 19:24).

In light of the passage, the most common response to the question "What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?" is that it was homosexuality. That is how the term "sodomy" came to be used to refer to anal sex between two men, whether consensual or forced. Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual gang rape on the two angels (who were disguised as men). At the same time, it is not biblical to say that homosexuality was the exclusive reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..." The Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in Leviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination." Similarly, Jude 7 declares, "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin in which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah indulged, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of the cities.

Those who attempt to explain away the biblical condemnations of homosexuality claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were certainly being inhospitable. There is probably nothing more inhospitable than homosexual gang rape. But to say God completely destroyed two cities and all their inhabitants for being inhospitable clearly misses the point. While Sodom and Gomorrah were guilty of many other horrendous sins, homosexuality was the principle reason God poured fiery sulfur on the cities, completely destroying them and all of their inhabitants. To this day, the area where Sodom and Gomorrah were located remains a desolate wasteland. Sodom and Gomorrah serve as a powerful example of how God feels about sin in general, and homosexuality specifically."

Sorry, I didn't realize you were unaware of these passages.

Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:11

Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.
Ezekiel 16:49

Now, please answer my question. What rights should I have stripped from me because I'm a trans woman? You said equal rights are evil. Just answer the question.

Btw, if you're going to cut and paste, at least include the link to where you're cutting and pasting from.

We're clearly not going to agree on how we're interpreting those texts. That's a side issue. My issue is with your claim that equal rights are evil. What rights should be stripped from me? Should my children be taken from me? Please elaborate.