Anyone have any ideas about how we can get a Latin Mass in College Station? Driving to Houston every Sunday for the FSSP mass at Regina Caeli is very difficult with three kids. Seems like Aggie Catholics love tradition and would be receptive to having one here. I'm sure it's all about finding the $$$ to have one in town. Would be beautiful. Any ideas?
We need a Latin Mass in College Station
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Last: 7 mo ago by DeProfundis
Do you have a number of people that desire the old Mass? This is necessary. It will help to convince a local priest to learn the TLM.yoderb980 said:
Anyone have any ideas about how we can get a Latin Mass in College Station? Driving to Houston every Sunday for the FSSP mass at Regina Caeli is very difficult with three kids. Seems like Aggie Catholics love tradition and would be receptive to having one here. I'm sure it's all about finding the $$$ to have one in town. Would be beautiful. Any ideas?
Do you have a priest that is willing to learn the old Mass?
Regarding training, 100 miles up HWY 6 in Waco is Mike Foley. He's a professor at Baylor and is instrumental to having the Latin Mass in Waco. He has trained a number of priests in the Diocese of Austin to offer the TLM. The training is not free, but he's a great guy and is always happy to assist the spread of traditional worship. Another resource is Alex Begin from Extraordinary Faith. He assisted my pastor and parish in establishing the Traditional Mass here in my area.
Another option for travel is to drive to Waco (Saint Peter's... Baylor campus ministry), Mike's parish. Fr. Augustine is there now and has learned. You will need to check their website as Fr. Augustine is still learning the old Mass.
Here in Florida, FSSP priests from Sarasota travel to Ocala to offer the TLM each Sunday. That might be another option (thinking Regina Caeli priests). Inter-diocesan paperwork will be needed. Plus, you'll need to find a place to host Holy Mass.
Fr. Albert at St. Thomas Aquinas is able to preform the Tridentine Mass. He preforms one about once a quarter and it is usually a traditional feast day but not a Sunday. I had petitioned him to preform a TLM mass on Sundays and unfortunately the parish council voted against it. There are plenty of people in the BCS area that would attend the TLM, if it were offered, but the problem is not all attend the same parish and it has been hard to consolidate everyone as a group. It is my understanding that Bishop Vasquez has not approved of any FSSP or other groups in the diocese. I think some times since we border the Diocese of Tyler and Houston-Galveston it would be easier to get Archbishop DiNardo or Bishop Strickland to open one in either Navasota or Madisonville. However St. Mary's in Brenham has a 4PM low mass on Sundays, that may be a easier option for you. I will support any effort to have the TLM said in or around Aggieland. But Regina Caeli is awesome I try to go there at least a couple of times a month.
The TLM at my parish pulls people from around the area, from multiple parishes. I am disappointed with respect to the parish council decision. But, the pastor has ultimate authority in the parish, AND we all know that a TLM will pull people from Saint Mary's, Saint Joseph's, and Saint Anthony's. Moreover, depending on pastoral "staffing," Fr. might be limited by how many Masses he may be able to say any given Sunday (Saint Peter's in Waco would do Saturday evening frequently). Replacing a Mass (most parishioners will view as a takeaway) will be met with resistance.
747Ag - No, I don't have a specific number.
Thanks for the information, though.
jrico2727 - I thought I had heard that Fr. Albert does a Latin Mass every now and then. Thanks. I was not aware that Bishop Vasquez will not approve FSSP in the diocese. Guess I could email his office and ask. My family and I have been to the Brenham Latin Mass, but our experience was terrible. There is no community there. Our oldest child made a noise during mass so the priest stopped in the middle of the mass, stared us down, and would not continue on until we left. So, We got up and left. I don't care if you're a priest or not, you don't treat people like that. Like you, I love Regina Caeli as well. Would just like to see more FSSP developments in Texas...primarily Aggieland.. I know, I'm biased lol
Maybe I should just petition St. Thomas Aquinas again for TLM. All they can say is "No".
Thanks for the information, though.
jrico2727 - I thought I had heard that Fr. Albert does a Latin Mass every now and then. Thanks. I was not aware that Bishop Vasquez will not approve FSSP in the diocese. Guess I could email his office and ask. My family and I have been to the Brenham Latin Mass, but our experience was terrible. There is no community there. Our oldest child made a noise during mass so the priest stopped in the middle of the mass, stared us down, and would not continue on until we left. So, We got up and left. I don't care if you're a priest or not, you don't treat people like that. Like you, I love Regina Caeli as well. Would just like to see more FSSP developments in Texas...primarily Aggieland.. I know, I'm biased lol
Maybe I should just petition St. Thomas Aquinas again for TLM. All they can say is "No".
That's an awful story about St Mary's in Brenham, and runs contrary to all my TLM experiences (both first and second hand). I'd have been tempted to ask the priest if "stare at noisy child silently" was in the red part of the rubrics of his missal!
Our parish in Katy has started doing monthly Latin masses on various feast days. Unfortunately as a diocesan parish they're "forbidden but not actually forbidden because I can't forbid you but don't you dare" by the bishop from distributing communion on the tongue, so the congregation doesn't get to receive at those masses.
And the finances have a lot to do with it I imagine I upped my tithe with an amount specifically earmarked to the Latin Mass collection because I'd love to see it continue/expand. The desire is there. I'm pretty sure all of the masses have hit "capacity" (25% because COVID) and have turned people away, when only the 9am Sunday is hitting those numbers while the obligation is still suspended.
Our parish in Katy has started doing monthly Latin masses on various feast days. Unfortunately as a diocesan parish they're "forbidden but not actually forbidden because I can't forbid you but don't you dare" by the bishop from distributing communion on the tongue, so the congregation doesn't get to receive at those masses.
And the finances have a lot to do with it I imagine I upped my tithe with an amount specifically earmarked to the Latin Mass collection because I'd love to see it continue/expand. The desire is there. I'm pretty sure all of the masses have hit "capacity" (25% because COVID) and have turned people away, when only the 9am Sunday is hitting those numbers while the obligation is still suspended.
There's a lot that goes into planning these Latin Masses (Schola learning music, servers learning to serve TLMs in general and also particular feasts like Candlemas and All Souls), liturgical furniture rearrangements, a separate homily, the priest reviewing the rubrics specific for that day, and many other items people have to think about. To add this on top of an existing Mass schedule is hard.
You also have to look at the actual interest in this niche type of Mass. Do the numbers justify the demands on the liturgical volunteers? If you have 300 people, it may justify replacing a Mass, but if it's 50-75 people (as is the case at St Thomas), it is harder to divert precious resources to so small a group.
Further more, is this creating a community within a community? Are the people who would go to this Mass actually integrate into the St Thomas parish life? Would they volunteer for Sunday school, Knights of Columbus, Aquinasfest, etc, or would they simply be their own group that does not interact with the parish as a whole?
Finally, even if the prior concerns were met, what would happen if Fr. Albert got sick, went on vacation, or was eventually given to another parish assignment? Would this effort simply go on pause? How would it be guaranteed continuity when so few priests know how to offer this Mass?
Hard questions that need answers before moving on this, especially now that Fr. Ron is gone on medical leave and COVID has likely strained the parish budget.
You also have to look at the actual interest in this niche type of Mass. Do the numbers justify the demands on the liturgical volunteers? If you have 300 people, it may justify replacing a Mass, but if it's 50-75 people (as is the case at St Thomas), it is harder to divert precious resources to so small a group.
Further more, is this creating a community within a community? Are the people who would go to this Mass actually integrate into the St Thomas parish life? Would they volunteer for Sunday school, Knights of Columbus, Aquinasfest, etc, or would they simply be their own group that does not interact with the parish as a whole?
Finally, even if the prior concerns were met, what would happen if Fr. Albert got sick, went on vacation, or was eventually given to another parish assignment? Would this effort simply go on pause? How would it be guaranteed continuity when so few priests know how to offer this Mass?
Hard questions that need answers before moving on this, especially now that Fr. Ron is gone on medical leave and COVID has likely strained the parish budget.
windmill97 said:
These were great points made that are very well informed and very specific to this case. I do think there is a bit speculation that because there isn't a Latin Mass community, where one hasn't been cultivated, that it cannot be formed. One has to plant a seed and let the tree grow before they can expect to harvest any fruit. Regina Caeli the FSSP parish in Houston, has a web genius sign up that is sent out weekly for 5 masses that hold up to 200 people per mass that fill up in a matter of minutes of being sent out, especially the High Mass. Many of those people come from the St. Thomas Aquinas parish and surrounding areas. If one were to have regular TLM and possibly a one Sunday a month schedule it would be a nice experiment to see how much it would grow within in a 6-12 month period.
There's a lot that goes into planning these Latin Masses (Schola learning music, servers learning to serve TLMs in general and also particular feasts like Candlemas and All Souls), liturgical furniture rearrangements, a separate homily, the priest reviewing the rubrics specific for that day, and many other items people have to think about. To add this on top of an existing Mass schedule is hard.
I agree and I think this is difficult epically when just starting out. Obviously a there were not enough people to give a firm commitment when this was asked. Although, I think sending out a email late on a Thursday evening and ending a survey the following Tuesday, that didn't get to all STA parishioners and certainly didn't get to the attendees of the Latin Mass, that was actually held the day after the survey ended gaged the actual interest in cultivating the culture that is needed.
You also have to look at the actual interest in this niche type of Mass. Do the numbers justify the demands on the liturgical volunteers? If you have 300 people, it may justify replacing a Mass, but if it's 50-75 people (as is the case at St Thomas), it is harder to divert precious resources to so small a group.
I think calling the Traditional Mass, and to be quite frank the most reverent mass in the Latin Rite, a niche mass is a little condescending. However it is no more of a niche than having guitars and bongo drums at mass and ultimately people should be able to choose the how they wish to participate in the Lord's Supper.
Further more, is this creating a community within a community? Are the people who would go to this Mass actually integrate into the St Thomas parish life? Would they volunteer for Sunday school, Knights of Columbus, Aquinasfest, etc, or would they simply be their own group that does not interact with the parish as a whole?
I think this is the most valid concern. I think there can be a divide with people who attended the Novus Ordo and the TLM. I also, think that some times there can be cliques formed within a parish with groups like ACTS and other ministries that seem to attract all the same people. Although I don't have specific figures on hand, since I have seen Regina Caeli grow in one year from a one building campus to a construction zone with multiple projects, a robust Knights of Columbus Chapter, a very beautiful Schola, and several prayer groups and youth ministries. I do believe that people who may join a parish because of TLM would be very active within that parish. Especially since the most parishes have a active 10% of the parish community that actively participate in the activities mentioned, I think TLM attendees would at the very least meet this mark and likely exceed it.
Finally, even if the prior concerns were met, what would happen if Fr. Albert got sick, went on vacation, or was eventually given to another parish assignment? Would this effort simply go on pause? How would it be guaranteed continuity when so few priests know how to offer this Mass?
Hard questions that need answers before moving on this, especially now that Fr. Ron is gone on medical leave and COVID has likely strained the parish budget.
These are again very valid concerns. I do know there are some priests within the diocese learning the TLM and even saying it. The unfortunate and unexpected departure of Fr. Ron certainly cannot be understated, he will be greatly missed. I do believe if groups like the FSSP or the Institute of Christ the King were invited into the diocese they would be happy to assist and would contribute greatly to the ever present need for good and holy priests.
This to me is an interesting aspect of TLM.windmill97 said:
Further more, is this creating a community within a community? Are the people who would go to this Mass actually integrate into the St Thomas parish life? Would they volunteer for Sunday school, Knights of Columbus, Aquinasfest, etc, or would they simply be their own group that does not interact with the parish as a whole?
I have attended TLM when Fr. Albert was at the Cathedral of Saint Mary (Austin TX). It was a beautiful liturgy of course, but felt "strange" to us - and we ended up attending the Sunday evening mass more often.
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The bigger picture is that this "community within a community" is something that happens at most parishes that have mass in different languages. I speak Spanish fluently and on a rare occasion will go to the 1pm Spanish mass if we are running late. Wife and I understand just fine, however, my kids really complain and say - "Why!!"
The truth is that we have to form a community by becoming active in the parish and pass that example on to our kids. Without that example, we are just going through the motions so to speak. Every parish is different. At Saint Mary's (downtown Austin) people come from all over the city and county. The cathedral's architecture itself, the liturgy, combined with an excellent choir, set the tone for a very special experience. Combine that with Latin and you get the feeling it was almost a timeless one as well.
I get all that. God knows we need the "smells and bells" as they say. At some point though - you have to engage your world in this time and in this place. If we go to mass and lose sight of the mission, then we are failing our baptismal calling as "Priest, prophet, and king."
I think calling the Traditional Mass, and to be quite frank the most reverent mass in the Latin Rite, a niche mass is a little condescending.
As one of the two MC's for the St Thomas TLM and founding member of the Schola I can honestly say I don't adopt a condescending attitude towards this form of Holy Mass. I've devoted years to making this possible. It would take a book to tell all the blood, sweat, tears, and prayers that have gone into this very gradual process. Learning this stuff takes a lot of time and patience, but it also takes a certain awareness of the sensibilities of the average parishioner. You don't make these things happen by force. You wait for the right time and opportunity. We've been slowly taking these opportunities since 2003.
The pastor, the parish council (of which I'm a member), the Schola leader, and many others in leadership roles all agreed the parish is not quite ready for a weekly TLM. Now that we are down to one priest and COVID limits attendance and revenues, I would bet the sentiment is doubly against this move.
It is a niche because only a small percentage of our parish has shown an interest in this Form of Holy Mass. If we were to see dramatic increases in attendance at the monthly/quarterly TLMs, it might be different, but the fact remains that most attendees are TAMU students, and very few permanent parishioners show up. It's GREAT that we can provide this experience for the attendees, but it's not in high demand.
If we saw other scholas offering to learn to sing and take on the burden of planning music for more Masses, if we saw more servers showing an interest in learning the arduous rubrics and roles of servers and MCs, then maybe we could talk about a weekly TLM. But realistically that's not going to happen right now. It's just getting off the ground. We need boatloads more of attendees at the monthly TLMs before anything else is to happen.
As a parishioner of St. Thomas since the 80's, I can say we have made GREAT strides in slowly leading people towards the goal of reverent liturgical worship. Fr. Albert has done a brilliant job with liturgical furnishings, vestments, postures, male altar server corps, and hiring an imminently-qualified liturgist to plan and execute the behind-the-scenes efforts of all our events - including the TLM. Fr. has braved much criticism just for these efforts. Much has been accomplished by gently dangling a beautiful carrot in front of the congregation, not pushing them into it from behind with a cattle prod. And the people have slowly come alongside these efforts and embraced them. My concern is that thrusting a TLM into the 4-Mass weekend schedule would be too much too soon, and it would destroy much of what we in the Schola, the server corps, and the parish have built up over two decades to achieve.
It may take some more time, but I believe we will ultimately get a weekly TLM. We may have a new priest by then. What it is going to take is TLM Mass-goers being more evangelical about this style of worship instead of making it a private devotion for themselves. If they want parish support, they have to bring more folks to these Masses. They need to be willing to do leg work to make these happen. Join the Schola so a larger group can divide up the duties. Learn to serve. Offer to usher. Help clean up afterwards. Get involved at the parish and be a force for good. All of these efforts will slowly build support, and ultimately this won't be a niche Mass that caters to a niche group of parishioners. Instead it will be one more part of what makes this parish strong and unified.
As one of the two MC's for the St Thomas TLM and founding member of the Schola I can honestly say I don't adopt a condescending attitude towards this form of Holy Mass. I've devoted years to making this possible. It would take a book to tell all the blood, sweat, tears, and prayers that have gone into this very gradual process. Learning this stuff takes a lot of time and patience, but it also takes a certain awareness of the sensibilities of the average parishioner. You don't make these things happen by force. You wait for the right time and opportunity. We've been slowly taking these opportunities since 2003.
The pastor, the parish council (of which I'm a member), the Schola leader, and many others in leadership roles all agreed the parish is not quite ready for a weekly TLM. Now that we are down to one priest and COVID limits attendance and revenues, I would bet the sentiment is doubly against this move.
It is a niche because only a small percentage of our parish has shown an interest in this Form of Holy Mass. If we were to see dramatic increases in attendance at the monthly/quarterly TLMs, it might be different, but the fact remains that most attendees are TAMU students, and very few permanent parishioners show up. It's GREAT that we can provide this experience for the attendees, but it's not in high demand.
If we saw other scholas offering to learn to sing and take on the burden of planning music for more Masses, if we saw more servers showing an interest in learning the arduous rubrics and roles of servers and MCs, then maybe we could talk about a weekly TLM. But realistically that's not going to happen right now. It's just getting off the ground. We need boatloads more of attendees at the monthly TLMs before anything else is to happen.
As a parishioner of St. Thomas since the 80's, I can say we have made GREAT strides in slowly leading people towards the goal of reverent liturgical worship. Fr. Albert has done a brilliant job with liturgical furnishings, vestments, postures, male altar server corps, and hiring an imminently-qualified liturgist to plan and execute the behind-the-scenes efforts of all our events - including the TLM. Fr. has braved much criticism just for these efforts. Much has been accomplished by gently dangling a beautiful carrot in front of the congregation, not pushing them into it from behind with a cattle prod. And the people have slowly come alongside these efforts and embraced them. My concern is that thrusting a TLM into the 4-Mass weekend schedule would be too much too soon, and it would destroy much of what we in the Schola, the server corps, and the parish have built up over two decades to achieve.
It may take some more time, but I believe we will ultimately get a weekly TLM. We may have a new priest by then. What it is going to take is TLM Mass-goers being more evangelical about this style of worship instead of making it a private devotion for themselves. If they want parish support, they have to bring more folks to these Masses. They need to be willing to do leg work to make these happen. Join the Schola so a larger group can divide up the duties. Learn to serve. Offer to usher. Help clean up afterwards. Get involved at the parish and be a force for good. All of these efforts will slowly build support, and ultimately this won't be a niche Mass that caters to a niche group of parishioners. Instead it will be one more part of what makes this parish strong and unified.
And I think referring to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass as "the most reverent mass in the Latin Rite" is highly judgmental. You have no idea what is in the hearts and minds of the parishioners and clergy at an Ordinary Form Mass.jrico2727 said:
I think calling the Traditional Mass, and to be quite frank the most reverent mass in the Latin Rite, a niche mass is a little condescending.
The Extraordinary Form is a niche Mass. The definition of niche:
Quote:
niche - /niCH,nSH/a specialized segment of the market for a particular kind of product or service.
It is called the "Extraordinary Form" - extraordinary in that is is not the norm - not the regular - form. It is outside the normal course of events. It is literally exactly the definition of "niche".
Extraordinary =/= niche.
See Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, a practice that no one would consider niche.
There are novus ordo masses that express the same reverence towards the Eucharist as the TLM. Those are few and far between. The issue is less with the novus ordo as originally conceived, and instead the myriad changes that were improvised along with it (the abandonment of Latin, folk hymns with borderline heretical lyrics, overuse of EMoHCs). The less rigid structure provides many more opportunities for liturgical abuse.
See Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, a practice that no one would consider niche.
There are novus ordo masses that express the same reverence towards the Eucharist as the TLM. Those are few and far between. The issue is less with the novus ordo as originally conceived, and instead the myriad changes that were improvised along with it (the abandonment of Latin, folk hymns with borderline heretical lyrics, overuse of EMoHCs). The less rigid structure provides many more opportunities for liturgical abuse.
The Extraordinary Ministers are exactly that as well - out of the ordinary. That's what the words means. The ordinary way of receiving the Eucharist is from an ordained minister. Just because the use of Extraordinary Ministers is common does not make it any less out of what is dictated to be the ordinary way of doing things.aggietony2010 said:
Extraordinary =/= niche.
See Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, a practice that no one would consider niche.
There are novus ordo masses that express the same reverence towards the Eucharist as the TLM. Those are few and far between. The issue is less with the novus ordo as originally conceived, and instead the myriad changes that were improvised along with it (the abandonment of Latin, folk hymns with borderline heretical lyrics, overuse of EMoHCs). The less rigid structure provides many more opportunities for liturgical abuse.
And once again, do not judge whether those in attendance at an Ordinary Form of the Mass are less reverent than those in attendance at an Extraordinary Form. You really have no idea what is in the hearts and minds of people at Mass, other than yourself. Apparently, you have been looking around and losing focus on your own Mass experience in order to form these judgments. My suggestion would be to focus more thoroughly on the miracle of the Eucharist at Mass, regardless of what form of Mass you're attending.
I am indifferent to the Extraordinary form of the Mass being celebrated in any parish I belong to. It is the very definition of a niche Mass in that a very small number of people are interested in experiencing it on a regular basis. And I say this as one who is old enough to have grown up attending the Tridentine Mass of the 1962 missal. Every time I've attended the Extraordinary Form Mass, I walk away thinking "Man what an awesome tremendous Mass that I'd love to experience again in about 5 years".
I too agree with the disdain for poor music that not just borders on heretical. But that doesn't have anything to do with the Ordinary Mass. A good pastor will assure that not one note of Marty Haugen, David Haas or Dan Schutte is played. In fact, the GIRM says:
Quote:
41. All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.[url=http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html#_ftn50][50][/url]
I also make sure I sit wherever Father or a deacon is going to distribute the Eucharist so I can receive Christ in the Ordinary fashion.
I guess at 52, I'm the young one here who really likes every artist you listed, lol!
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One of my early memories as a kid growing up in Corpus Christi was my mom taking my sister and I to weekly prayer meetings where the music was very much along the charismatic (folk) line. Naturally this was the 70s and we were greatly influenced by this wonderful and uplifting music.
Lately, with my kids, we listen to a lot of contemporary Christian music and my kids were really glad to see the Teen Mass incorporate this into the liturgy.
So, I do think that God in his wonderful way is offering a variety of liturgical environments to the faithful.
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One of my early memories as a kid growing up in Corpus Christi was my mom taking my sister and I to weekly prayer meetings where the music was very much along the charismatic (folk) line. Naturally this was the 70s and we were greatly influenced by this wonderful and uplifting music.
Lately, with my kids, we listen to a lot of contemporary Christian music and my kids were really glad to see the Teen Mass incorporate this into the liturgy.
So, I do think that God in his wonderful way is offering a variety of liturgical environments to the faithful.
Would that the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite be as ordinary as the use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion...
That which was originally stated as to the most reverent Mass refers to the structure of the liturgy and not the interior disposition of those assisting (or attending) at Holy Mass.wbt5845 said:And I think referring to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass as "the most reverent mass in the Latin Rite" is highly judgmental. You have no idea what is in the hearts and minds of the parishioners and clergy at an Ordinary Form Mass.jrico2727 said:
I think calling the Traditional Mass, and to be quite frank the most reverent mass in the Latin Rite, a niche mass is a little condescending.
The EF has a certain timelessness about it since you are hearing the same words that countless generations of our ancestors have heard...literally the same words. The Latin, the unmetered Gregorian chant, the priest facing ad orientem and saying many of the prayers in sotto voce (silently), and the countless bows and signs of the cross all add an air of mystery to an EF Mass. This scratches an itch in certain temperaments that a vernacular OF Mass with English hymns just can't. However, other temperaments find the transcendence of the EF off-putting because it makes God seem too distant. I say, to each his own. There's a lot of room in God's house.
That having been said, a parish has to consider the needs of the whole community and decide how best to utilize its limited resources and time to meet the majority of people's needs. Sometimes the small minority's needs cannot be met.
That having been said, a parish has to consider the needs of the whole community and decide how best to utilize its limited resources and time to meet the majority of people's needs. Sometimes the small minority's needs cannot be met.
Sidebar discussion: Why did the ancient liturgies of the Eastern Catholic churches remain virtually untouched in the wake of the reforms done in the name of Vatican II? Perhaps it is because Sacrosanctum Concilium barely acknowledges the East, which begs the question of why?
My parish is making it work. Diocesan parish in a "far flung" area from the local ordinary. Perhaps you could say we are on the peripheries. Regardless, we a poor parish. 'Ronatide has made this even more evident as we have gone through two reductions in labor (compare that to local beachside parishes). Nevertheless, we have one priest and he makes it work here. TLMs occur on first and third Sundays. Should our pastor be unavailable, we have a backup in a neighboring diocese to assist. The majority of families at the TLM split time between the Vetus and Novus Ordo worlds. We do also pull TLM attendees from other local parishes. Also to our benefit is that our liturgy director is fully on board... a nice schola such that we can have High Mass rather than Low Mass.windmill97 said:
The EF has a certain timelessness about it since you are hearing the same words that countless generations of our ancestors have heard...literally the same words. The Latin, the unmetered Gregorian chant, the priest facing ad orientem and saying many of the prayers in sotto voce (silently), and the countless bows and signs of the cross all add an air of mystery to an EF Mass. This scratches an itch in certain temperaments that a vernacular OF Mass with English hymns just can't. However, other temperaments find the transcendence of the EF off-putting because it makes God seem too distant. I say, to each his own. There's a lot of room in God's house.
That having been said, a parish has to consider the needs of the whole community and decide how best to utilize its limited resources and time to meet the majority of people's needs. Sometimes the small minority's needs cannot be met.
The TLM has influenced how our pastor offers Holy Mass. It has informed his preaching. It has directed his attention to the rubrics. It has sparked a demographic shift (accelerated by 'ronatide) in our parish as well. (When we arrived nearly 5 years ago, it was a boomer retirement parish.) Families have started flocking to our parish due to the reverence found at Holy Mass, both forms.
It's been nearly 20 years since I lived in the BCS area, so I really don't know the dynamics of the local community. However, we took a calculated risk and things are improving.
EDIT: This hymn will be sung on Ash Wednesday (ordinary form) as well as on Quadragesima Sunday (1st Sunday of Lent). Our liturgical director is based, but not a true bass. Tenors have the melody in this hymn.
That was some beautiful music! Really special to see this, thanks for posting.
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"The TLM has influenced how our pastor offers Holy Mass. It has informed his preaching. It has directed his attention to the rubrics."
I am curious as to why this is the case with your Pastor? In reading about St. John of the Cross and the "Dark night of the soul" - it would seem that the closer we come into the presence of God - the less we will "feel" the warm fuzzies - as they say. Mother Theresa of Calcutta went years without this level of spiritual consolation. The question then would seem, why is this so?
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"The TLM has influenced how our pastor offers Holy Mass. It has informed his preaching. It has directed his attention to the rubrics."
I am curious as to why this is the case with your Pastor? In reading about St. John of the Cross and the "Dark night of the soul" - it would seem that the closer we come into the presence of God - the less we will "feel" the warm fuzzies - as they say. Mother Theresa of Calcutta went years without this level of spiritual consolation. The question then would seem, why is this so?
Demonic attacks.
Why not Koine Greek or Aramaic if closer connection to the NT church is desired?
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
UTExan said:
Why not Koine Greek or Aramaic if closer connection to the NT church is desired?
Latin was the most universal of languages, to go along with the universal Church. If you speak Latin, you can go to a Latin Mass in Mexico City, Sharjah, Beirut or Vietnam and participate.
FalconAg06 said:UTExan said:
Why not Koine Greek or Aramaic if closer connection to the NT church is desired?
Latin was the most universal of languages, to go along with the universal Church. If you speak Latin, you can go to a Latin Mass in Mexico City, Sharjah, Beirut or Vietnam and participate.
Do those areas have large Latin speaking populations?
Does college station?
bmks270 said:FalconAg06 said:UTExan said:
Why not Koine Greek or Aramaic if closer connection to the NT church is desired?
Latin was the most universal of languages, to go along with the universal Church. If you speak Latin, you can go to a Latin Mass in Mexico City, Sharjah, Beirut or Vietnam and participate.
Do those areas have large Latin speaking populations?
Does college station?
I'm going to answer your actual question, in hopes you will make your point and it will be germane.
"No"
I have asked this question as well. The Greeks and Byzantines still use Greek to some extent and we all, use Greek in the Kyrie Eleison. The Maronite Rite uses Aramaic if I recall correctly. I would say that the order of the Mass and the Liturgy is what would keep us connected to the Early Church and the Heavenly Liturgy shown in the Apocalypse of John.UTExan said:
Why not Koine Greek or Aramaic if closer connection to the NT church is desired?
There is a school of thought that the universal Church should have a universal Language, and she did for almost 2,000 years. I personally am not offended by use of the vernacular in the Mass, but the changes to the Mass and Liturgy that came along with the change to the vernacular have robbed the faithful of their heritage.
I know some people who believe that 3 languages were eternalized when they were nailed to the cross, Hebrew, Latin and Greek.
I think that this article about Bishop Strickland learning the TLM, may help explain.PabloSerna said:
That was some beautiful music! Really special to see this, thanks for posting.
+++
"The TLM has influenced how our pastor offers Holy Mass. It has informed his preaching. It has directed his attention to the rubrics."
I am curious as to why this is the case with your Pastor? In reading about St. John of the Cross and the "Dark night of the soul" - it would seem that the closer we come into the presence of God - the less we will "feel" the warm fuzzies - as they say. Mother Theresa of Calcutta went years without this level of spiritual consolation. The question then would seem, why is this so?
"It's not so easy, probably, to describe. It continued to grow throughout the entire process, this sense of wonder and awe. I had, of course, heard many of the terms in Latin before, but I really didn't know how they fit as deeply as they do in the extraordinary form. It's almost like there were a few pieces in a puzzle that were missing, and I only realized they were when I finally said the Mass. The realization you get as a priest, of the deep meaning of these prayers, these words, I can understand now in a profound way. Like I said, this liturgy is all about him, about worshipping God. It's about the Son of God coming down from heaven, descending to the altar to take the form of bread and wine it's all about God. You can see in it where the "melody line" of the Novus Ordo has been taken from, but you are caught up in the splendor, here, of the full "orchestra." There's nothing but awe. Just the beauty of the corporal and how the Host and the chalice are treated and I have to say [long pause, filled with emotion] I could hardly say the words of consecration because I became so filled with emotion, so deeply struck by those words. Thank God we only must whisper them in this rite, because I am not sure I would have been able to speak above that whisper, so struck I was at the profundity. It was the first time in my life that I had ever said those words in Latin, and I could hardly get them out. It's indescribable, really."
Bishop Strickland is in a class of his own, and I mean that in the most complimentary way. The Catholics of the Diocese of Tyler are indeed blessed.
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
Mark Fairchild said:
Bishop Strickland is in a class of his own, and I mean that in the most complimentary way. The Catholics of the Diocese of Tyler are indeed blessed.
Yes I refer to him as "the other good us bishop" along with Bishop David Konderla of course
I know you're not advocating for it, but that trilingual thing can be taken too far.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilingual_heresy
I believe everyone should hear the service in a language they can understand. Part of the liturgy is the participation of the faithful.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilingual_heresy
I believe everyone should hear the service in a language they can understand. Part of the liturgy is the participation of the faithful.
Jrico2727
He describes a gift from God to enter more deeply into the mass - that is wonderful and I can relate (although my experience was not in Latin, but in English).
What I am really asking is why someone like Saint John of the Cross or Mother Theresa of Calcutta, both of whom we can safely say were living saints that experienced this "dark night" of the soul farther along in their spiritual journey, why do you think God allows for these "prolonged series of profound aridities"?
+++
I'm thinking it has less to do with whether the mass is in Latin or pig-Latin and more to do with our relationship with God. My mother, who prays daily devotionals, novenas, rosaries, holy hours, and until recently attended mass daily - now tunes in online - was so glad when the mass switched from Latin to Spanish. As she describes it - they were poor, lived in a small house with dirt floors (Lardeo TX) and were devout Catholics.
"Misa en la manana, menudo despues!"
Mass was spent praying a rosary because they didn't understand Latin. There were no hymnals that had both languages, and for many, they could not read or write in Spanish, much less Latin. Everybody in their church community spoke Spanish natively, even the Priest. Except for mass, our highest prayer, the church where she grew up communicated primarily in Spanish.
Enter Vatican II. Her faith journey took another turn and deepened. Not just with a more clear understanding of the rubrics and the liturgy, but also with the music! She had a similar awakening and when my sister and I came along, she shared that with us even to this day. Those were her "warm fuzzies" to be certain.
The link to the article from the Carmelites is a great resource for understanding this reality. I know my time is coming and I hope my ego will stand down so that my relationship with God will stand up!
He describes a gift from God to enter more deeply into the mass - that is wonderful and I can relate (although my experience was not in Latin, but in English).
What I am really asking is why someone like Saint John of the Cross or Mother Theresa of Calcutta, both of whom we can safely say were living saints that experienced this "dark night" of the soul farther along in their spiritual journey, why do you think God allows for these "prolonged series of profound aridities"?
+++
I'm thinking it has less to do with whether the mass is in Latin or pig-Latin and more to do with our relationship with God. My mother, who prays daily devotionals, novenas, rosaries, holy hours, and until recently attended mass daily - now tunes in online - was so glad when the mass switched from Latin to Spanish. As she describes it - they were poor, lived in a small house with dirt floors (Lardeo TX) and were devout Catholics.
"Misa en la manana, menudo despues!"
Mass was spent praying a rosary because they didn't understand Latin. There were no hymnals that had both languages, and for many, they could not read or write in Spanish, much less Latin. Everybody in their church community spoke Spanish natively, even the Priest. Except for mass, our highest prayer, the church where she grew up communicated primarily in Spanish.
Enter Vatican II. Her faith journey took another turn and deepened. Not just with a more clear understanding of the rubrics and the liturgy, but also with the music! She had a similar awakening and when my sister and I came along, she shared that with us even to this day. Those were her "warm fuzzies" to be certain.
The link to the article from the Carmelites is a great resource for understanding this reality. I know my time is coming and I hope my ego will stand down so that my relationship with God will stand up!
So here's the real answer, OP. Think of why SEC schools don't want an in-state rival joining the SEC.
Most of the vocations for the Austin diocese come from Texas A&M. If you establish a Latin Mass within reasonable distance of BCS, those guys at that formative time of their life, even if it's a diocesan-run Mass, will all gravitate to the traditional orders and seek formation in their seminaries rather than wherever the Austin guys go (Houston?). Once a seminarian or discerning guy experiences a traditional order's formation, a great many are not going to want to be surrounded by the gay subculture (that's not really sub) of the seminary and priesthood of the mainstream Church. Even straight guys are (1) guilty by association or (2) abused into some degree of silence or participation, especially if they have any ambition. Who would sign up for that???
The bishop will never cut off his supply of vocations by inviting a rival for seminarians into his most fruitful recruiting base.
Most of the vocations for the Austin diocese come from Texas A&M. If you establish a Latin Mass within reasonable distance of BCS, those guys at that formative time of their life, even if it's a diocesan-run Mass, will all gravitate to the traditional orders and seek formation in their seminaries rather than wherever the Austin guys go (Houston?). Once a seminarian or discerning guy experiences a traditional order's formation, a great many are not going to want to be surrounded by the gay subculture (that's not really sub) of the seminary and priesthood of the mainstream Church. Even straight guys are (1) guilty by association or (2) abused into some degree of silence or participation, especially if they have any ambition. Who would sign up for that???
The bishop will never cut off his supply of vocations by inviting a rival for seminarians into his most fruitful recruiting base.
???
Let me see if I understand your assertion correctly?
Are you saying that the TLM can be used to recruit 5 star seminarians??
- or -
Traditional orders are full of gay men?
- or -
Both?
Let me see if I understand your assertion correctly?
Are you saying that the TLM can be used to recruit 5 star seminarians??
- or -
Traditional orders are full of gay men?
- or -
Both?
Not sure if serious. The traditional orders screen their seminarians very well. The dioceses these days will ordain any warm body.
Serious. I just reread your sentence and you are actually claiming that the diocesan seminaries have a gay subculture, is that right?
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