A straw man argument is when a person presents a distorted and easily-refuted version of their opponent's argument, and then proceeds to defeat it.

Your argument here is that violence is strength. You are calling other Christians weak. I am questioning when that became acceptable for a Christian pastor to teach. I find this kind of thing distasteful. You didn't address what I said, but answered with an incorrectly used throwaway.

If you want to engage in a discussion, you should be prepared for people to disagree with what you say. Disagreeing with what you say or pointing out that you have used a term incorrectly is not attacking your intelligence.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

Zobel said:

---

I'm not sure you understand what that phrase means.

---

You're starting to get nasty. To win you have to attack my intelligence?

---

Ok, I'll rephrase. How is what Zobel said a Straw man. I don't see it at all, it seems to characterize your statement exactly.

Quote:

---

God is fine with people serving in the military/law enforcement, and even appointed some to serve in that capacity.

---

You should read what some of the early church fathers had to say about that.

dargscisyhp said:

---

I frankly think someone like Pacifist, if she can truly stick to her conviction and avoid violence at all costs, is perhaps strongest of all.

---

Thank you for that. Fortunately, I've only had a few instances since embracing nonviolence where most would claim a violent defense was justified. Thankfully I was able to resist my sinful urges to answer violence with violence. None were imminently life-threatening, but responding with violence would have certainly been justified.

You very clearly implied that refusal to engage in violence was weakness. Do you not agree that this statement affirms violence as strength? What is the opposite of weakness?

Zobel said:

---

You very clearly implied that refusal to engage in violence was weakness. Do you not agree that this statement affirms violence as strength? What is the opposite of weakness?

---

No that's the straw man. I never said that you assumed it. You're just wrong, or being dishonest. Personally I think you got a little over zealous and assumed the worst about me. I don't take you as the dishonest type.

I think you might should choose your words a little bit more carefully, then. Someone might misunderstand you.

Quote:

---

"Hitherto I have served you as a soldier; allow me now to become a soldier to God. Let the man who is to serve you receive your donative. I am a soldier of Christ; it is not permissible for me to fight."

~ Martin of Tours (315AD 397AD)

---

Quote:

---

"Christians, instead of arming themselves with swords, extend their hands in prayer."

~ Athanasius of Alexandria (293AD 373AD)

---

Quote:

---

The Christian poor are "an army without weapons, without war, without bloodshed, without anger, without defilement."

~ Clement of Alexandria (150AD 214AD)

---

Quote:

---

"I do not wish to be a ruler. I do not strive for wealth. I refuse offices connected with military command."

~ Tatian of Assyria (died around 185AD)

---

Quote:

---

"The Christian does not hurt even his enemy."

~ Tertullian (160AD 220AD)

---

Quote:

---

"Only without the sword can the Christian wage war: the Lord has abolished the sword."

~ Tertullian (160AD 220AD)

---

Quote:

---

"You cannot demand military service of Christians any more than you can of priests. We do not go forth as soldiers with the Emperor even if he demands this."

~ Origen (185AD 254AD)

---

This one is probably my favorite on the subject:

Quote:

---

"The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established brothel, sculptors of idols, charioteer, athlete, gladiatorgive it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword shall give it up or be rejected. Anyone taking or already baptized who wants to become a soldier shall be sent away, for he has despised God."

~ Hippolytus (170AD 236AD)

---

Quote:

---

"I serve Jesus Christ the eternal King. I will no longer serve your emperorsIt is not right for a Christian to serve the armies of this world."

~ Mercellus the Centurion, spoken as he left the army of Emperor Diocletian in 298AD.

---

Quote:

---

"But now inquiry is being made concerning these issues. First, can any believer enlist in the military? Second, can any soldier, even those of the rank and file or lesser grades who neither engage in pagan sacrifices nor capital punishment, be admitted into the church? No on both counts."

~ Tertullian (160AD 220AD)

---

Quote:

---

"Shall it be held lawful to make an occupation of the sword, when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword shall perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?"

~ Tertullian (160AD 220AD)

---

Quote:

---

"Learn about the incorruptible King, and know his heroes who never inflict slaughter on the peoples."

~ Tertullian (160AD 220AD)

---

Quote:

---

"I recognize no empire of this present age."

~ Speratus (martyred 180AD)

---

Quote:

---

"Shall we carry a flag? It is a rival to Christ."

~ Tertullian (160AD 220AD)

---

Quote:

---

"I am a Christian. He who answers thus has declared everything at oncehis country, profession, family; the believer belongs to no city on earth but to the heavenly Jerusalem."

~ St. John Chrysostom (347AD 407AD)

---

I know there are differing views on this, but to imply that those who reject violence in all situations are "weak" is to call much of the early church "weak". Perhaps we are, but in our weakness, He is strong.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

dargscisyhp said:

---

I frankly think someone like Pacifist, if she can truly stick to her conviction and avoid violence at all costs, is perhaps strongest of all.

---

I think if you have the strength to stop a mass murder and do nothing that is weakness. Not every needs to be able to do so, but for those who do, and lack the moral conviction to do so you are bordering on cowardice.

Harmlessness is not a virtue. Even God has wrath. There is a time a place for violence. I'm not a violent person, but I can be, if and only when I need to. Some are protectors, and God made them to be. God is fine with people serving in the military/law enforcement, and even appointed some to serve in that capacity.

---

I don't really care what God thinks. The ability to stand by your own convictions in the face of overwhelming odds is an admirable quality. Violence feels quite natural. It feels instinctive. In certain situations, it even feels necessary. If someone is able to face that instinct and beat it back because that is what they truly believe in, I think that's a quality of a strong person.

Quote:

---

I carry everywhere I go. If someone shoots at me, my family, or my church family we are heavily armed, and will shoot back! Security meeting coming up soon for our security team. Not everyone is a sheepdog, but someone must protect the flock.

I'm a properly licensed LTC holder. Licensed by the state to legally dispense justice by stopping an active shooter.

God was fine with Abraham rounding up a militia to rescue Lot, the women, and children. When did Christian's become so weak?

---

It was hardly a rush to anything.

Zobel said:

---

Quote:

---

I carry everywhere I go. If someone shoots at me, my family, or my church family we are heavily armed, and will shoot back! Security meeting coming up soon for our security team. Not everyone is a sheepdog, but someone must protect the flock.

I'm a properly licensed LTC holder. Licensed by the state to legally dispense justice by stopping an active shooter.

God was fine with Abraham rounding up a militia to rescue Lot, the women, and children. When did Christian's become so weak?

---

It was hardly a rush to anything.

---

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

The fact that you would automatically assume this says more about you than me. I pray I never have to use it, but in today's world unfortunately it's necessary. It would be wrong for me to not protect the innocent.

God was fine with Abraham rounding up a militia to rescue Lot, the women, and children. When did Christian's become so weak?

---

What do you mean by that last sentence, if you don't mean to say that Christians who are unwilling to participate in violence are weak? What are you referring to when you say Christians have become weak? What makes them weak?

TxAgPreacher said:

---

dargscisyhp said:

---

TxAgPreacher said:

---

dargscisyhp said:

---

I frankly think someone like Pacifist, if she can truly stick to her conviction and avoid violence at all costs, is perhaps strongest of all.

---

I think if you have the strength to stop a mass murder and do nothing that is weakness. Not every needs to be able to do so, but for those who do, and lack the moral conviction to do so you are bordering on cowardice.

Harmlessness is not a virtue. Even God has wrath. There is a time a place for violence. I'm not a violent person, but I can be, if and only when I need to. Some are protectors, and God made them to be. God is fine with people serving in the military/law enforcement, and even appointed some to serve in that capacity.

---

I don't really care what God thinks. The ability to stand by your own convictions in the face of overwhelming odds is an admirable quality. Violence feels quite natural. It feels instinctive. In certain situations, it even feels necessary. If someone is able to face that instinct and beat it back because that is what they truly believe in, I think that's a quality of a strong person.

---

Ok...

---

I mean, I'm an atheist, so that's kind of part of the requirement.

Quote:

---

I think if you have the strength to stop a mass murder and do nothing that is weakness.

---

What do you mean by this? To be more specific, what do you mean "have the strength to stop a mass murderer"? If I reject the use of violence to do so, am I weak? What if I nonviolently lay my life down to save the lives of others, even if it may not be successful in stopping the murderer, am I weak?

TxAgPreacher said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

Quote:

---

I think if you have the strength to stop a mass murder and do nothing that is weakness.

---

What do you mean by this? To be more specific, what do you mean "have the strength to stop a mass murderer"? If I reject the use of violence to do so, am I weak? What if I nonviolently lay my life down to save the lives of others, even if it may not be successful in stopping the murderer, am I weak?

---

I'm not calling you a coward. You have your demons and I respect that. I don't expect everyone to be capable, but those who are have a God given duty to protect. I don't think laying down your life for others is cowardly. The opposite really. I think a failure for a mature Christian man to take his protective responsibility is a cowardly punt at a certain point.

I get righteous indignation when people call good evil and evil good. When "Christians" called the man who stopped at mass shooting in Ft. Worth every name in the book, except a hero I get mad. It's clearly not wrong to stop a mass shooting. Calling the police, who are just going to shoot him anyways, becomes cowardly for someone like me, when you have the ability to stop it then and there.

---

Demons? What demons are you referring to? I'm more than capable of using violence. I was trained to do so. I reject that way now. Not because of "demons", but because I believe it's the way of Christ that He modeled for us. I will do everything I can to protect my family, but that will not involve killing others. Why? Because that person trying to take their life bears God's divine image and is clearly in need of redemption. So, knowing where my faith lay, I choose to surrender myself to safeguard my family AND my attacker.

And there's no need to put scare quotes around Christian. In doing so, you come across as if you are judging their faith because they disagree with you. Stop that.

Quote:

---

And there's no need to put scare quotes around Christian. In doing so, you come across as if you are judging their faith because they disagree with you. Stop that.

---

Yeah, it's really odd that he falls back to the "don't judge me!" position on the slightly pushback from Zobel, but is quick to toss people right out of the elect on 1 take...

diehard03 said:

---

Quote:

---

And there's no need to put scare quotes around Christian. In doing so, you come across as if you are judging their faith because they disagree with you. Stop that.

---

Yeah, it's really odd that he falls back to the "don't judge me!" position on the slightly pushback from Zobel, but is quick to toss people right out of the elect on 1 take...

---

I'm fine for being judged for things I've actually said.

I use discernment to decide if people are clearly not following Christ, in this case, I use "" when I'm not sure.

Quote:

---

I read your story, and understand that you might have had problems overcoming your violent nature. I don't expect everyone to have the mentality needed to be a protector the way I am. For me it would be a sin not to. Saving my family 2 seconds for a follow up shot doesnt cut it for me personally. Even when I was a child I would imagine what would I do if a shooter came into the building. I decided then and there I would go for the tackle. It's a natural God given instinct to protect for me. I will not be judged for doing what is right.

Christ was there in the beginning when he created the earth, and by extension, being God, killed every person during the flood, at sodom, and even in the NT when he struck down Anninias and Saphira.

---

LOL dude, I am a medically retired combat infantry sergeant. Please don't imply that I don't "have the mentality". Goodness. I've seen real violence up close. And it may not "cut it for you personally", but what would and would not "cut it for you" doesn't define what is or is not a sin. And if you were having these violent images going through your mind as a child, that's probably something deeper you may need to address.

Again, though, you seem to conflate violence and protection. It's in my nature to protect. I just choose to protect my family and my attacker. I would follow the example of Christ and lay my life down to protect others, even those attacking me. He's the One we're called to imitate. As for the other examples of your perception of a violent God, we interpret those radically differently.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

I'm fine for being judged for things I've actually said.

---

Quote:

---

The fact that you would automatically assume this says more about you than me. I pray I never have to use it, but in today's world unfortunately it's necessary. It would be wrong for me to not protect the innocent.

God was fine with Abraham rounding up a militia to rescue Lot, the women, and children. When did Christian's become so weak?

---

What do you mean by that last sentence, if you don't mean to say that Christians who are unwilling to participate in violence are weak? What are you referring to when you say Christians have become weak? What makes them weak?

TxAgPreacher said:

---

diehard03 said:

---

Quote:

---

And there's no need to put scare quotes around Christian. In doing so, you come across as if you are judging their faith because they disagree with you. Stop that.

---

Yeah, it's really odd that he falls back to the "don't judge me!" position on the slightly pushback from Zobel, but is quick to toss people right out of the elect on 1 take...

---

I'm fine for being judged for things I've actually said.

I use discernment to decide if people are clearly not following Christ, in this case, I use "" when I'm not sure.

---

You are referring to strangers when you used those scare quotes. You are making judgements about their faith, not on their fruit, but on whether they agree with your take of one specific incident. You are wrong. It would be like if I said "TxAgPreacher seems to be a "Christian" who loves guns". I'm not going to judge your faith based on this one issue.

Quote:

---

I use discernment to decide if people are clearly not following Christ, in this case, I use "" when I'm not sure.

---

I have no idea what possible discernment you could be using to determine someone's election status based purely on this topic.

PacifistAg said:

---

Quote:

---

I read your story, and understand that you might have had problems overcoming your violent nature. I don't expect everyone to have the mentality needed to be a protector the way I am. For me it would be a sin not to. Saving my family 2 seconds for a follow up shot doesnt cut it for me personally. Even when I was a child I would imagine what would I do if a shooter came into the building. I decided then and there I would go for the tackle. It's a natural God given instinct to protect for me. I will not be judged for doing what is right.

Christ was there in the beginning when he created the earth, and by extension, being God, killed every person during the flood, at sodom, and even in the NT when he struck down Anninias and Saphira.

---

LOL dude, I am a medically retired combat infantry sergeant. Please don't imply that I don't "have the mentality". Goodness. I've seen real violence up close. And it may not "cut it for you personally", but what would and would not "cut it for you" doesn't define what is or is not a sin. And if you were having these violent images going through your mind as a child, that's probably something deeper you may need to address.

Again, though, you seem to conflate violence and protection. It's in my nature to protect. I just choose to protect my family and my attacker. I would follow the example of Christ and lay my life down to protect others, even those attacking me. He's the One we're called to imitate. As for the other examples of your perception of a violent God, we interpret those radically differently.

---

You seem to be taking it personally, I'm trying to give you grace for a different opinion.

Christ laid down his life because they attacked him personally, he wasn't setting an example that you have to allow a mass murder to continue.

Quote:

---

You seem to be taking it personally, I'm trying to give you grace for a different opinion.

---

I'm not taking it personally. I'm simply reading your words. You need to be more careful in how you word things. And giving grace doesn't look like scare quotes that question the faith of others or by implying they're weak simply because they disagree.

Quote:

---

Christ laid down his life because they attacked him personally, he wasn't setting an example that you have to allow a mass murder to continue.

---

Again, nobody is arguing to let a mass murder continue. Christ laid His life down, while we were yet His enemies. The Creator of the universe, my Savior, would rather give up His life so that even His murderers may live. That's the example I follow. And when one of His closest disciples used violence to defend the innocent Messiah, He immediately rebuked him for it and condemned our participation in the cycle of violence.

PacifistAg said:

---

Quote:

---

You seem to be taking it personally, I'm trying to give you grace for a different opinion.

---

I'm not taking it personally. I'm simply reading your words. You need to be more careful in how you word things.

That's your opinion.

Quote:

---

Christ laid down his life because they attacked him personally, he wasn't setting an example that you have to allow a mass murder to continue.

---

Again, nobody is arguing to let a mass murder continue. Christ laid His life down, while we were yet His enemies. The Creator of the universe, my Savior, would rather give up His life so that even His murderers may live. That's the example I follow.

My point from the beginning is if they shoot first I will shoot back. I will gladly lay down mine trying to protect the innocent. I won't listen to anyone who tells me I'm wrong for doing so. Countless examples in the scriptures show God is fine with violence in the right circumstances. He uses it Himself.

---

TxAgPreacher said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

I'm not taking it personally. I'm simply reading your words. You need to be more careful in how you word things.

That's your opinion.

---

---

Everyone here read your first post on this thread today as insinuating that Christians who are unwilling to use violence are weak. You called this a straw man, yet you've made absolutely no effort to clarify this despite repeated probings from multiple people.

I would say it's more than an opinion if your goal is to have others understand what you are trying to say.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

Quote:

---

You seem to be taking it personally, I'm trying to give you grace for a different opinion.

---

I'm not taking it personally. I'm simply reading your words. You need to be more careful in how you word things.

That's your opinion.

Quote:

---

Christ laid down his life because they attacked him personally, he wasn't setting an example that you have to allow a mass murder to continue.

---

Again, nobody is arguing to let a mass murder continue. Christ laid His life down, while we were yet His enemies. The Creator of the universe, my Savior, would rather give up His life so that even His murderers may live. That's the example I follow.

My point from the beginning is if they shoot first I will shoot back. I will gladly lay down mine trying to protect the innocent. I won't listen to anyone who tells me I'm wrong for doing so. Countless examples in the scriptures show God is fine with violence in the right circumstances. He uses it Himself.

---

---

Yes, it's my opinion and of others who have addressed the same thing. Perhaps instead of digging in your heels with, at best, sloppy wording, you can reflect on the fact that perhaps others have pointed out these issues for a reason.

And if you aren't going to listen to anyone who tells you that you may be wrong, then discussion boards may not be the best place for you.

PacifistAg said:

---

TxAgPreacher said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

Quote:

---

You seem to be taking it personally, I'm trying to give you grace for a different opinion.

---

I'm not taking it personally. I'm simply reading your words. You need to be more careful in how you word things.

That's your opinion.

Quote:

---

Christ laid down his life because they attacked him personally, he wasn't setting an example that you have to allow a mass murder to continue.

---

Again, nobody is arguing to let a mass murder continue. Christ laid His life down, while we were yet His enemies. The Creator of the universe, my Savior, would rather give up His life so that even His murderers may live. That's the example I follow.

My point from the beginning is if they shoot first I will shoot back. I will gladly lay down mine trying to protect the innocent. I won't listen to anyone who tells me I'm wrong for doing so. Countless examples in the scriptures show God is fine with violence in the right circumstances. He uses it Himself.

---

---

Yes, it's my opinion and of others who have addressed the same thing. Perhaps instead of digging in your heels with, at best, sloppy wording, you can reflect on the fact that perhaps others have pointed out these issues for a reason.

And if you aren't going to listen to anyone who tells you that you may be wrong, then discussion boards may not be the best place for you.

---

Forgive me the horrible sin of not stating every single belief I have perfectly clearly.

I said nothing wrong. Y'all took it the wrong way. I assume(dangerous I know) its because I disagree.

I came here to state my opinion because I believe it's the right thing to do. I don't want to endlessly debate something I know is right.

TxAgPreacher said:

---

I said nothing wrong. Y'all took it the wrong way. I assume(dangerous I know) its because I disagree.

I came here to state my opinion because I believe it's the right thing to do. I don't want to endlessly debate something I know is right.

---

You're not endlessly debating something, you're avoiding the debate altogether by refusing to clarify your point. You have yet to clarify what you meant by calling other Christians weak. What did you mean if you didn't mean to say that Christians who are unwilling to participate in violence are weak? What are you referring to when you say Christians have become weak? What makes them weak? Until you can answer those simple questions, your charge of Straw Man falls totally flat on its face, and it does indeed appear as though you simply used that incorrectly. Is that what happened?

*something you BELIEVE is right

And look at you, assuming the worst about us and why we understood your words the way we did. Didn't you accuse others of doing that very thing to you?