https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/03/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html?__twitter_impression=true

One dead. My wife just told me that the suspect was involved in a car chase the night before, and hid overnight in the church.

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This may be out of line of me but I don't get why a pastor has a gun on him at church.

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I don't know. I don't think that's the problem necessarily. Every gun owner knows the risk of carrying and understands that their own gun might be used against them. It's a cost-benefit choice every person makes on the issue.

He obviously had some sort of scenario where pulling the gun was in his best interest. Maybe the amount of money in the bag was life and death for the livelihood of the church. Maybe, he was just careless.

And may I thank you for being here?

After a lot of soul searching, I have discovered that my personal experiences with Calvinists have soured me a lot more than the actual theology. Still not ready for dp or limited atonement but very much into predestination and the complete Sovereignty of God.

Thanks for being you.

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And may I thank you for being here?

After a lot of soul searching, I have discovered that my personal experiences with Calvinists have soured me a lot more than the actual theology. Still not ready for dp or limited atonement but very much into predestination and the complete Sovereignty of God.

Thanks for being you.

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Thanks for the kind words.

For me it amounts to "giving God his greatest authority" and trying to steer away from any argument that's basically "a good God wouldn't do that". I see Christs statement as "only God is good" as foundational in this regard.

But I am with you that Christians who act unloving because they feel like they are in the elect are missing the point. (I had a floor mate at A&M who like this)

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And I agree with your point - the entire purpose of a handgun is to use it on person. I think someone needs spend a lot of time with the Lord before considering owning one. I think if we are completely calloused on taking someone's life, even if we are 100% in the right and it's used for protecting someone's family...those feelings should be explored and reconciled.

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My views on this are obvious, but I did want to touch upon this excellent point here. It kind of touches upon what I've read of the Orthodox view of "justified" violence. Even if it's a situation of "no other option", we should recognize that taking human life inflicts a moral injury on a person that should never be celebrated. It should be always be mourned. We really see this callousness growing lately though, and it's worrisome. But this handgun distinction is also why my wife and I left a church several years ago. They had a youth mission trip auction and auctioned off a shotgun. Okay, I can live with that. But they also auctioned off a handgun. That was a deal breaker for us because, as you said, its entire purpose is to take a human life.

But this callousness is very troubling lately, because it reflects the fact that we're not seeing God's divine image in others. That's a problem.

Zobel said:

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A handgun's entire purpose isn't to take a human life any more than a Rolex submariner's entire purpose is to help someone when diving. You could make the same argument for a rifle or a knife.

They're tools. This kind of hard connection between tool and use is a bit overly-Platonic for me.

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To be fair, everything is overly-Platonic for you. /s--sorta

UTExan said:

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One was a situation I have never publicly share before but may do so at a future date which I have come to believe was an angelic intervention.

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Would you love to hear your story (stories, really) if you feel comfortable sharing.

AstroAg17 said:

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I had a dog run up aggressively on me a month or two ago. It backed off but that was a wake up call. You better believe I wished I had a gun.

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Here's another scary example that was posted on Reddit a few months ago where a gun would have been really usefu:

Actually I'm pretty pro-Plato in general... in this case what I meant was the idea that a tool is connected its designed or best function in a firm / real / unchangeable way. Which, to be faiiiiah, seems to go beyond Plato.

Thanks for the "well ackshually" guys.

Necessity is still the mother of invention...and adaption of tools beyond in their initial conception. While rifles were originally designed for war, there's been a clear deviation in "evolution" between riles used in war...and used in hunting/sport today.

As everyone who has ever owned any tool knows, every tool you own is a hammer. This doesn't mean that tools don't have a purpose or that you can't "task failed successfully" your way into using a tool for another purpose.

That said, a handgun doesn't have a high amount of utility beyond causing death or giving the illusion of causing death. It has evolved to really excel at it's primary function...so much so that it's basically it's only function. I don't think the use cases described (dogs and mountain lions) rises to a meaningful utility level.

Man, yall must really have slow work days if we are trying to stretch this theory out.

diehard03 said:

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Man, yall must really have slow work days if we are trying to stretch this theory out.

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Don't really get this comment. We're on a discussion board having a discussion about guns. We're sharing our thoughts and experiences? It feels relevant to me. I respect you, so if you want me to not, I can stop.

kurt vonnegut said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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I disagree. It's entirely anecdotal but in my life and the lives of people I know I can think of many cases where a gun was necessary to deal with an animal in an unexpected situation, and exactly 0 cases where it was necessary to deal with a person.

I'd make the opposite claim; that it's more useful for animals. The situations where it's justified to shoot a person are exceedingly rare.

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The problem with guns isn't the guns themselves or their limited utility beyond killing humans, its some of the culture associated with guns. I have known way too many people that treat guns like an extension of their manhood, or as a toy, or as a political statement.

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Don't really get this comment. We're on a discussion board having a discussion about guns. We're sharing our thoughts and experiences? It feels relevant to me. I respect you, so if you want me to not, I can stop.

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I don't have a problem having a discussion on the topic, it's just a strange argument to me and it just feels like we are hunting for something.

it's ok that a handguns primarily "reason to exist" is to kill humans and that what's it designed to do efficiently, while maintaining it's primary use case in close combat/easy of concealability and brandishing. that's it's strategic advantage over other weapons.

That doesn't mean that there aren't a handful of cases, which rarity aren't so dissimilar to home invasion, that one might want to have one. It also doesn't mean that there aren't areas or parts of the country where the risk reward shifts. Inside of this, however, still remains the primary desire to be able to kill humans, if we have to.

I have handguns. I pretty much only use them to sport shoot at ranges with my friends. I'll also take one if I'm camping or hiking in the middle of nowhere. Otherwise they stay locked up. I don't carry around people, because I really don't want to shoot anyone.

This metastudy attempts to quantify the risk of having a firearm in the home. Haven't read much of it yet, but thought I'd share.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M13-1301

Something something turn the other cheek.

Something something give your tunic also