Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I believe true homosexuality is an inherited trait.

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This is impossible because "true" homosexuals cannot procreate.

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Actually that is incorrect. Genetic traits can occur via spontaneous mutations with zero familial inheritance. Happens frequently in numerous diseases.

You do bring up an interesting point though. It would be interesting to see what the rate of homosexuality was in kids fathered by gay males. Or borne to a gay mother.

I think if it were as simple as that they'd have cracked it long ago.

Aggrad08 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I believe true homosexuality is an inherited trait.

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This is impossible because "true" homosexuals cannot procreate.

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You've an amazing gift for being bad at biology. Gay folks have had babies many times over. They simply have sex with someone they aren't attracted to.

And ignoring that, there is no reason a set of genes that increased odds of homosexuality couldn't propagate if it provided some other benefits.

Twin studies show that people with identical DNA can be opposite orientation. But those same studies show that if one is gay the odds of the other being gay are higher. So there is a genetic, fetal, or neonatal link.

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Thanks for answering my question.

My many years in medicine including HIV research and running the STD clinics inHouston exposed me to a lot of gay people.

Sorry pastor but a lot are borne that way. Maybe not all and I am not saying environment does not play a part. But when loving Christian parents(even pastors, clergy, etc. have gay kids) I find it hard to believe it was environmentally induced.

Zobel said:

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I think if it were as simple as that they'd have cracked it long ago.

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Respectfully disagree. A lot of inherited behavioral traits do not have identified genetic markers. So it is probably an incredibly complicated thing.

Look at psychiatric diseases. We know that some are "inherited", the person was born to have them. But we can not identify a specific gene for a lot of disorders.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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I think if it were as simple as that they'd have cracked it long ago.

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Respectfully disagree. A lot of inherited behavioral traits do not have identified genetic markers. So it is probably an incredibly complicated thing.

Look at psychiatric diseases. We know that some are "inherited", the person was born to have them. But we can not identify a specific gene for a lot of disorders.

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Doctors still know very little when it comes to genetics. That is what I've learned while dealing with genetic issues with my daughter. She has an unknown genetic condition which is not uncommon.

I think we're saying the same thing. What I was saying was, if it were as simple as homosexual men have offspring who are homosexual, we would have figured that out. It's a lot more complicated, and probably is a combination of factors (genetic, fetal, environmental).

Frok said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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I think if it were as simple as that they'd have cracked it long ago.

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Respectfully disagree. A lot of inherited behavioral traits do not have identified genetic markers. So it is probably an incredibly complicated thing.

Look at psychiatric diseases. We know that some are "inherited", the person was born to have them. But we can not identify a specific gene for a lot of disorders.

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Doctors still know very little when it comes to genetics. That is what I've learned while dealing with genetic issues with my daughter.

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My first daughter was born with CHARGE syndrome which obviously is inherited but there is no specific gene identified with it.

I was teaching at TCH at the time and the head geneticist cried when she told us and said there was a increased chance of any of our future kids getting it. We put our faith in the Lord and did not even find out the sex of our second daughter. She is perfectly healthy.

Zobel said:

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I think we're saying the same thing. What I was saying was, if it were as simple as homosexual men have offspring who are homosexual, we would have figured that out. It's a lot more complicated, and probably is a combination of factors (genetic, fetal, environmental).

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Aggrad08 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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I believe true homosexuality is an inherited trait.

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This is impossible because "true" homosexuals cannot procreate.

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You've an amazing gift for being bad at biology. Gay folks have had babies many times over. They simply have sex with someone they aren't attracted to.

And ignoring that, there is no reason a set of genes that increased odds of homosexuality couldn't propagate if it provided some other benefits.

Twin studies show that people with identical DNA can be opposite orientation. But those same studies show that if one is gay the odds of the other being gay are higher. So there is a genetic, fetal, or neonatal link.

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"Cultural compulsion made them aroused at the time. But they weren't attracted."

That makes no sense. Then they repeated the scientific experiment over and over again before and after marriage...

Have sex with your spouse! It's for the children!

Ok.

I was in rehab once. How come the amphetamine version of AA was overwhelmingly LBGT?

Is meth changing genetics and creating mutations?

No.

Your comment wasn't particularly coherent but yes gay people can and do have sex with straight people. It's been evidence very many times and going back a long way in history.

So you think most gay people are not born that way?

Is it in nature that women can switch back and forth from women to men? Yet, once a man is gay, he appears to have a much more difficult time attracting the opposite gender, may be especially if a woman knows of his supposed bisexuality?.

dermdoc said:

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So you think most gay people are not born that way?

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I believe we are all born with disordered loves and with different sinful inclinations of the soul.

It just depends upon how "common grace" is awarded to each individual...

For instance, we didn't choose our parents or upbringing either. Some of us under "Common Grace" were born wealthy. Some of us were born poor.

St. Augustine taught that people do what they are most inclined to do.

Patriot4301 said:

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I was in rehab once. How come the amphetamine version of AA was overwhelmingly LBGT?

Is meth changing genetics and creating mutations?

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If you want a good example of what's most likely the source of what you saw in rehab, I'd highly recommend the documentary "For They Know Not What They Do". I believe you can rent it on Amazon.

But one of the stories they tell is of a standard conservative evangelical family. Their son came out as gay when he was 12. They got him involved with Exodus International, and other groups who are big on horrific conversion therapy. They obviously loved their son, but they rejected this aspect of who he was. It became unbearable for him, because oh how he tried to repress it. He ended up turning to drugs to dull the pain. They kicked him out because of the drugs. He'd then clean up and move back. But he relapsed again, as he continued to fight who he was. This time it cost him his life.

So many times what you're seeing from LGBTQIA individuals and drug use is due to the pain caused by the rejection of those they love most. Or the pain of trying to repress who they are, and being told they're going to burn in hell for identifying as 'gay'...even if they are celibate.

PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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I was in rehab once. How come the amphetamine version of AA was overwhelmingly LBGT?

Is meth changing genetics and creating mutations?

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Wait. I assumed your "meth makes people gay" comment was a joke. Goodness, no, that's not how any of this works.

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Wasn't around it enough to affect me, I guess.
I noticed that while playing with fire that my sex drive was out of control. Causes a little hallucinations and I wondered what that would lead some people towards if they opened themselves up to the same sex.

Sorry for the grammar. I'm not as smart as Zobel.
I'm just a commoner.

Okay, but the answer is 'no'. Meth use, or any drug use, does not cause genetic mutations that result in people being gay. Now I could imagine a situation where drug use leads to homelessness and prostitution in order to get the next fix, food, shelter, etc. I wouldn't call that person a homosexual though, any more than I'd call a straight man in prison who had sex with another prisoner an actual "homosexual". They aren't sexually attracted to people of the same sex.

Then why are all our gay friends in rehab predominantly meth users? Still doesn't answer the question.

Patriot4301 said:

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Then why are all our gay friends in rehab predominantly meth users? Still doesn't answer the question.

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I would imagine meth is a very popular drug to be in rehab for, so it's not a stretch that people in rehab, gay or straight, may have experience with meth.

There isn't a shred of actual science to support the claim that meth makes you gay. Again, I would imagine what you're seeing are people who have been rejected by their families for being gay, which is a disgusting thing for a family to do, and have lost all support around them, possibly ending up on the streets and using meth to "medicate" the pain.

40% of the 1.6 million young people who experience homelessness identify as LGBTQIA. 40%. These are young people who have presumably been rejected by their families. Young people who are more likely to now drop out of school. Young people who end up on the streets with no support network. You're blaming the meth for them being gay, which is absurd. Drug use is often driven by pain. LGBTQIA youth experience a lot of pain. That there's overlap doesn't mean the drug is making them gay. Goodness.

No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

Patriot4301 said:

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No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

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Again, there's not a single shred of scientific evidence that meth makes people gay. And do you have any support for your claim that most who have used meth are gay? Also, if they are actually gay, they were gay before they ever used meth.

You're making an unsubstantiated claim. You're saying that since there are LGBTQIA people who use meth, then it's the meth causing them to be gay. There's nothing to support that claim.

PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

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Again, there's not a single shred of scientific evidence that meth makes people gay. And do you have any support for your claim that most who have used meth are gay? Also, if they are actually gay, they were gay before they ever used meth.

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I'm basically begging the question.

Who had their first male gay experience, while using meth? Ask around.

Science? Science hasn't even studied the phenomenon yet.

Patriot4301 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

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Again, there's not a single shred of scientific evidence that meth makes people gay. And do you have any support for your claim that most who have used meth are gay? Also, if they are actually gay, they were gay before they ever used meth.

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I'm basically begging the question.

Who had their first male gay experience, while using meth? Ask around.

Science? Science hasn't even studied the phenomenon yet.

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You're throwing out a ridiculous claim that has zero evidence to support it, defending it as if it's a legitimate claim, then hiding behind "begging the question". I've given plenty of counterpoints, but you are simply refusing to listen to anything that doesn't support your unsubstantiated and unscientific claim.

Google gay people and meth. Ask some people in the sober living and rehab business an off the record question about it.

PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

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Again, there's not a single shred of scientific evidence that meth makes people gay. And do you have any support for your claim that most who have used meth are gay? Also, if they are actually gay, they were gay before they ever used meth.

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I'm basically begging the question.

Who had their first male gay experience, while using meth? Ask around.

Science? Science hasn't even studied the phenomenon yet.

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You're throwing out a ridiculous claim that has zero evidence to support it, defending it as if it's a legitimate claim, then hiding behind "begging the question". I've given plenty of counterpoints, but you are simply refusing to listen to anything that doesn't support your unsubstantiated and unscientific claim.

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So is your claim.
I'm not claiming that meth was in all cases what inclined gay male intercourse.
I'm stating that there must be a connection.
I'll concede and state that it needs to be studied.

Just ask gay meth users when they are high and they will tell you everything.

Patriot4301 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

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Again, there's not a single shred of scientific evidence that meth makes people gay. And do you have any support for your claim that most who have used meth are gay? Also, if they are actually gay, they were gay before they ever used meth.

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I'm basically begging the question.

Who had their first male gay experience, while using meth? Ask around.

Science? Science hasn't even studied the phenomenon yet.

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Here, let's use Occam's Razor:

Which is more likely:

• methamphetamines creating genetic mutations in people resulting in them being gay despite no scientific evidence of this occurring, or...
• young LGBTQIA people being rejected by their families, losing any sense of a support network, ending up on the streets, and then turning to drugs (again, 40% of young people experiencing homelessness are LGBTQIA, and the average age of someone's first time to use meth is around 23)

That's what science does. It makes generalities and an hypothesis to be studied.

Actually, I have no idea whether or not meth creates a genetic mutation. I'll concede that point.

Does it open people up to go down a route that changes some people's sexual identity? Maybe so. Maybe not.

Patriot4301 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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Patriot4301 said:

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No sir. People are in rehab for a lot of various preferred drugs of choice. It just so happens that most meth users in rehab and sober living happen to be gay.

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Again, there's not a single shred of scientific evidence that meth makes people gay. And do you have any support for your claim that most who have used meth are gay? Also, if they are actually gay, they were gay before they ever used meth.

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I'm basically begging the question.

Who had their first male gay experience, while using meth? Ask around.

Science? Science hasn't even studied the phenomenon yet.

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You're throwing out a ridiculous claim that has zero evidence to support it, defending it as if it's a legitimate claim, then hiding behind "begging the question". I've given plenty of counterpoints, but you are simply refusing to listen to anything that doesn't support your unsubstantiated and unscientific claim.

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So is your claim.
I'm not claiming that meth was in all cases what inclined gay male intercourse.
I'm stating that there must be a connection.
I'll concede and state that it needs to be studied.

Just ask gay meth users when they are high and they will tell you everything.

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I have actually provided data behind my claims. We know there are about 1.6 million young people living on the streets. We know that approximately 40% of them are LGBTQIA. Logically, young people living on the streets come from bad situations, or "good" situations in which they're rejected by their families. We know that indicators of future drug use are largely circumstance-driven. We know that LGBTQIA people being rejected by their families are more likely to engage in self-harm or drug use.

You claiming there "must be a connection" requires you to provide actual evidence. Correlation does not equal causation, especially when science and logic disagree with you. I know a lot of LGBTQIA people. I have known people who have used meth. Not one of the meth users I've known magically had sexual attraction for the same sex afterwards.

Your claim sounds like those who argued that marijuana made black men rape white women. It's so absurdly silly and not supported by any actual science.

Patriot4301 said:

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Actually, I have no idea whether or not meth creates a genetic mutation. I'll concede that point.

Does it open people up to go down a route that changes some people's sexual identity? Maybe so. Maybe not.

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Does being in prison open people up to go down a route that "changes some people's sexual identity"? No. I already addressed this. Just because you are homeless, addicted to drugs, and are willing to do things you normally wouldn't have done in order to get drugs, doesn't make you gay. You aren't magically attracted to the same sex. You may be willing to do whatever is necessary to get a fix, but that doesn't make you attracted to the same sex. Just like sex in prison between two men doesn't automatically mean they are gay. There are a whole host of reasons why said sex may happen that have absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Now, given the high rate of homelessness within the LGBTQIA community, especially among young people, it's not a leap in logic to assume that within the LGBTQIA homeless population, drug use is common. If drug use is common, it's not a leap in logic to assume drug addiction is common. Homeless people also tend to not have a ton of resources, so it's not a leap in logic to assume that someone who is drug addicted may engage in prostitution to get money for their addiction. Since there are a high percentage of LGBTQIA within the homeless population, it's not a stretch to see that there'd be a lot of overlap on this Venn diagram. That doesn't mean the meth is making them gay. Often, being gay led to circumstances that increased the likelihood of drug use/addiction, then sex work to feed that addiction.

The problem isn't being LGBTQIA. The problem is the lack of support network that drives these young people to the streets and exponentially increases the chances of them engaging in dangerous activities.