Ag4coal said:

---

SirDippinDots said:

---

Ag4coal said:

---

What great sin are the Republicans committing with immigration?

There is no "great sin", and it would take a fairly long post to get it all out from a Catholic Christian perspective. I can do it if you want. Short answer is that overly restricting the flow of people out of their hellholes into a place of refuge is wrong. Again, overly being the key word. I want drugs and cartels and human traffickers to be stopped. I also don't want to have a living wage worth of handouts for everyone who comes here. I don't want us to cater to their culture. We need immigrants to adjust to our way of life. As for the jobs they're taking, it wouldn't matter if we hadn't shipped millions of jobs to China. I'm going to stop because I'll go on for pages.

---

Thanks. You made yourself clear.

Having said that I disagree. The US does have a responsibility IMO to help make the world a better place. It does not have to do that by having a liberal immigration policy. IMO it is already too liberal having developed hell holes in our own country like little somolia in Minneapolis.

So I see no moral fault on the Republicans in this issue.
I would liken it to arguing over a capital gains tax rate of 0 to 20 percent.

---

Good thing is it's not mortal sin, so we can actually agree to disagree and vote accordingly. Unlike abortion. Which is why I will side with Republicans 100% until they cede their moral high ground on this issue, or the Democrats regain their senses. I don't see the latter happening any time soon.

---

I don't see how any Christian can vote democrat. Not all Democrats support the following but many do:

Abortion

Destruction of nuclear family or replacing with whatever the alphabet community is espousing

Defund the police and war on police
No bail
Not prosecuting serious crimes
Encouraging rioting, doxing, intimidation via their BLM and Antifa thugs

Closing down of churches but allowing riots, liqueur stores etc as essential.

sigh

Quote:

---

I don't see how any Christian can vote democrat. Not all Democrats support the following but many do:

Abortion

Destruction of nuclear family or replacing with whatever the alphabet community is espousing

Defund the police and war on police
No bail
Not prosecuting serious crimes
Encouraging rioting, doxing, intimidation via their BLM and Antifa thugs

Closing down of churches but allowing riots, liqueur stores etc as essential.

---

Abortion as a party platform is the only thing, to be honest.

The rest of it is political nonsense.

diehard03 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't see how any Christian can vote democrat. Not all Democrats support the following but many do:

Abortion

Destruction of nuclear family or replacing with whatever the alphabet community is espousing

Defund the police and war on police
No bail
Not prosecuting serious crimes
Encouraging rioting, doxing, intimidation via their BLM and Antifa thugs

Closing down of churches but allowing riots, liqueur stores etc as essential.

---

Abortion as a party platform is the only thing, to be honest.

The rest of it is political nonsense.

---

What he said. I'm not advocating for the Dems at all. All of those are bad things. But I don't even care because I can't get past "go" because of their abortion stance. The rest is just icing on their terrible cake.

diehard03 said:

---

I don't see his and your points as mutually exclusive.

Supporting mothers means supporting them to a level in which those who have leverage over them no longer do.

---

You're approaching abused women as if they have fully developed frontal lobes and mental acuity and maturity. That may be Pablo's case but it's not for our trafficking victim. They have often suffered compound trauma. They view safe people as dangerous and dangerous people as safe. They often run right back into the life even after being rescued. Their brains need to be totally rewired and a government program won't do that in weeks or months. Non-profits dedicated to it struggle to help even a handful out every year while they may come into contact with hundreds or thousands. Abortion aids and abets abusers, familial and otherwise. It should be shut down.

Quote:

---

You're approaching abused women as if they have fully developed frontal lobes and mental acuity and maturity. That may be Pablo's case but it's not for our trafficking victim. They have often suffered compound trauma. They view safe people as dangerous and dangerous people as safe. They often run right back into the life even after being rescued. Their brains need to be totally rewired and a government program won't do that in weeks or months. Non-profits dedicated to it struggle to help even a handful out every year while they may come into contact with hundreds or thousands. Abortion aids and abets abusers, familial and otherwise. It should be shut down.

---

Again, you're right. I just thought that PS was looking and saying "it's illegal...now what?". It's a valid question. it doesn't mean that asking it is somehow asking we don't want abortion to be illegal.

Quote:

---

The rest is just icing on their terrible cake.

---

My point was more that the rest of list are just political talking points and loaded phrases. Both sides have them and they belong in forum 16.

diehard03 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't see how any Christian can vote democrat. Not all Democrats support the following but many do:

Abortion

Destruction of nuclear family or replacing with whatever the alphabet community is espousing

Defund the police and war on police
No bail
Not prosecuting serious crimes
Encouraging rioting, doxing, intimidation via their BLM and Antifa thugs

Closing down of churches but allowing riots, liqueur stores etc as essential.

---

Abortion as a party platform is the only thing, to be honest.

The rest of it is political nonsense.

---

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

So there is one political party that is using violence and lawlessness to burn our cities. There is one party that strongly supports Israel, Gods chosen. So feel free to dismiss it all if you wish.

I just can't. People only see what they want to see, and strangers on the internet aren't going to change anyone's mind.

Have a good one.

Zobel said:

---

Ugh man cmon the nation state of Israel is not the biblical nation of Israel.

---

It is. The Nation state of Israel as you refer to her is Bible prophecy fulfilled.

Religions should be taxed. This is politics.

GeorgiAg said:

---

Religions should be taxed. This is politics.

---

Will the millennial kingdom be politics?

SirDippinDots said:

---

GeorgiAg said:

---

Religions should be taxed. This is politics.

---

Will the millennial kingdom be politics?

---

I don't know, let's consult Gandalf.

GeorgiAg said:

---

SirDippinDots said:

---

GeorgiAg said:

---

Religions should be taxed. This is politics.

---

Will the millennial kingdom be politics?

---

I don't know, let's consult Gandalf.

---

Never take lightly a bearded man with a staff.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

It is. The Nation state of Israel as you refer to her is Bible prophecy fulfilled.

---

Just pointing you to the most amazing resource on the topic of the creation of modern Israel. It's a podcast called MartyrMade by Darryl Cooper. It's a fair, unbiased, and uncensored look at the history and consequences of Zionism in the Holy Land, and it isn't pretty. It's over 20 hours, so don't expect a 20 minute executive summary.

If you can listen to that and tell me modern Israel arose as God fulfilling a prophecy, then you and I might as well worship different gods. The modern nation of Israel came about because a group of Jewish refugees from around Europe escaped to the Holy Land. Then they turned around and violently conquered the land from the Arabs followed by waging a worldwide terror campaign against the British. There are no "good guys" in the Israeli/Arab conflict. Only aggressors and victims, and there are plenty to go around on each side.

It's also somewhat ironic to see staunch conservatives decry the perils unrestricted immigration, and then turn around and praise Israel which is a product of the perils of unrestricted immigration.

---

And to see the apartheid state they've created up close is disturbing, to say the least. What they are doing, especially in the Jordan Valley but really throughout, is nothing less than ethnic cleansing.

Should a Christian vote for a Democrat? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote for a Republican? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote? Probably not.
Should we make declarations about one's faith based on which violent, power-hungry party they vote for? No.

I think John Wesley is right here: ""I have been long convinced, from the whole tenor of ancient history, that this very event, Constantine's calling himself a Christian, and pouring in that flood of wealth and honour on the Christian Church, the Clergy in particular, was productive of more evil to the Church than all the ten persecutions put together. From the time that power, riches, and honour of all kinds were heaped upon the Christians, vice of all kinds came in like a flood, both on the Clergy and laity. From the time that the Church and State, the kingdoms of Christ and of the world were so strangely and unnaturally blended together, Christianity and Heathenism were so thoroughly incorporated with each other, that they will hardly ever be divided till Christ comes to reign upon earth."

And for those who vote in hopes of overturning Roe v Wade, Skye Jethani had a great thread about that:

PacifistAg said:

---

And for those who vote in hopes of overturning Roe v Wade, Skye Jethani had a great thread about that:

---

There is little fact in this thread. It is well known that abortions skyrocketed after Roe v Wade. Any numbers about abortions prior to are all convenient "estimates". Like the "estimates" that thousands of women were dying each year from back alley abortions, which was proven to be false by the very same organization who first propogated the lie.

Thankfully, abortions are dropping each year. I think this has way more to do with the fact we are talking about Roe v Wade. We are showing that it is, in fact, a baby, and it's making people think twice about that choice. I know several families who chose to keep their "unwanted pregnancy". Who knows if they would have in the height of the sexual revolution, when sonograms were a figment of our imagination.

Overturning Roe v Wade would not end abortion overnight. Many states would keep it legal. Not all that different from the abolition of slavery not granting black people equal rights in half of the country. But, like the13th, 14th and 15th amendments, it can be a really good start in steering our country's moral compass in the right direction

SirDippinDots said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Ugh man cmon the nation state of Israel is not the biblical nation of Israel.

---

It is. The Nation state of Israel as you refer to her is Bible prophecy fulfilled.

---

The Israel worship by the far right is only slightly less dumb than the Q stuff.

PacifistAg said:

---

Should a Christian vote for a Democrat? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote for a Republican? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote? Probably not.
Should we make declarations about one's faith based on which violent, power-hungry party they vote for? No.

I think John Wesley is right here: ""I have been long convinced, from the whole tenor of ancient history, that this very event, Constantine's calling himself a Christian, and pouring in that flood of wealth and honour on the Christian Church, the Clergy in particular, was productive of more evil to the Church than all the ten persecutions put together. From the time that power, riches, and honour of all kinds were heaped upon the Christians, vice of all kinds came in like a flood, both on the Clergy and laity. From the time that the Church and State, the kingdoms of Christ and of the world were so strangely and unnaturally blended together, Christianity and Heathenism were so thoroughly incorporated with each other, that they will hardly ever be divided till Christ comes to reign upon earth."

---

I've never understood this. Not one bit. We are called to pray for our leaders. Our leaders are called to lead. In America, WE are the leaders. WE choose the people who represent US to make sure OUR leadership is carried out correctly. By choosing not to vote, you are ceding the leadership that God has ordained we have, either through His active or permissive will. We can not cede the responsibilities God gave us.

I don't blame anyone in current monarchies or banana republics for not trying to be active politically, but it is quite clear that we are the government, and therefore the leaders of our country. It's our duty.

GeorgiAg said:

---

Religions should be taxed. This is politics.

---

That country didn't have a right to tax ANYONE prior to 1913. The federal government made this up. Then they said "oh, we'll exempt those churches...as long as they behave". So we'll create a new law and exempt you from something you should never have been included in to begin with. How nice of them.

Congress has no right to interfere with religion at all. Taxing them simply because they speak out on politics is interfering with that religion. Congress MADE UP THAT RULE! I honestly think it would get thrown out if any church had the balls to take it to court.

I get that "religion" could easily be abused, but we know what "religions" were talked about in our constitution and it isn't the rando cult down the street using "religion" as a tax cover.

Ag4coal said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

And for those who vote in hopes of overturning Roe v Wade, Skye Jethani had a great thread about that:

---

There is little fact in this thread. It is well known that abortions skyrocketed after Roe v Wade. Any numbers about abortions prior to are all convenient "estimates". Like the "estimates" that thousands of women were dying each year from back alley abortions, which was proven to be false by the very same organization who first propogated the lie.

Thankfully, abortions are dropping each year. I think this has way more to do with the fact we are talking about Roe v Wade. We are showing that it is, in fact, a baby, and it's making people think twice about that choice. I know several families who chose to keep their "unwanted pregnancy". Who knows if they would have in the height of the sexual revolution, when sonograms were a figment of our imagination.

Overturning Roe v Wade would not end abortion overnight. Many states would keep it legal. Not all that different from the abolition of slavery not granting black people equal rights in half of the country. But, like the13th, 14th and 15th amendments, it can be a really good start in steering our country's moral compass in the right direction

---

Abortion numbers aren't dropping because we're talking about it. They've been dropping pretty consistently since the early 80's, regardless of the party in control. We did see a slight uptick around the same time Bush was pushing abstinence-only sex education. There are many likely reasons the numbers have been consistently decreasing for decades. More comprehensive sex education and greater access to birth control are probably the two biggest reasons.

But the party in power has had no discernable impact on those rates. Heck, I believe both parties prefer the status quo, including Republicans, because it is far too valuable as a political football to scare voters with. Since Roe v Wade, there have been 15 new SC justices placed on the bench. 11 of them by Republican presidents. They're no closer to overturning Roe today than they were then. And even if that pipe dream were realized, it only reverts it back to a state issue, and the overwhelming majority of states will maintain its legality. There are far more effective ways of combating abortion than compromising our witness by supporting vile men in the hopes they'll nominate the right people to overturn a court case.

Ag4coal said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

Should a Christian vote for a Democrat? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote for a Republican? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote? Probably not.
Should we make declarations about one's faith based on which violent, power-hungry party they vote for? No.

I think John Wesley is right here: ""I have been long convinced, from the whole tenor of ancient history, that this very event, Constantine's calling himself a Christian, and pouring in that flood of wealth and honour on the Christian Church, the Clergy in particular, was productive of more evil to the Church than all the ten persecutions put together. From the time that power, riches, and honour of all kinds were heaped upon the Christians, vice of all kinds came in like a flood, both on the Clergy and laity. From the time that the Church and State, the kingdoms of Christ and of the world were so strangely and unnaturally blended together, Christianity and Heathenism were so thoroughly incorporated with each other, that they will hardly ever be divided till Christ comes to reign upon earth."

---

I've never understood this. Not one bit. We are called to pray for our leaders. Our leaders are called to lead. In America, WE are the leaders. WE choose the people who represent US to make sure OUR leadership is carried out correctly. By choosing not to vote, you are ceding the leadership that God has ordained we have, either through His active or permissive will. We can not cede the responsibilities God gave us.

I don't blame anyone in current monarchies or banana republics for not trying to be active politically, but it is quite clear that we are the government, and therefore the leaders of our country. It's our duty.

---

If you think "we are the leaders", I don't know what to tell you. Yes, we pray for the leaders, just as the early Christians undoubtedly prayed for Caesar. If you truly believe you are a leader, I'll pray for you then. But we aren't the leaders in this country. Just because we get to go through the charade of voting doesn't make it so. I mean, if we were the "leaders", do you honestly believe moral degenerates like Trump or Biden would be the choices we have? No, it's not my "duty" to participate in this charade where people are given the illusion of power.

My responsibility is to serve others, not rule over them.

Btw, my decision to not vote isn't because I believe this is all a charade, which I do. My decision to not vote is based on my belief that as a follower of Christ, I'm called to a life of nonviolence. Since the state is inherently violent, and voting is an act to give others the legal right to use the state's violence against my neighbor, then I refuse to participate in such an act. If my neighbor wants Joe Biden to rule over him, that's his choice alone to make. I don't believe I have a valid moral right to tell my neighbor that "no, you must be ruled by Donald Trump because I say so". But if one embraces an ethic of Christian nonviolence, and they believe the state is inherently violent, then it's only logical that they reject participation in the machinery of the state, including the futile act of voting.

I won't commit an act of violence against my neighbor. I won't empower someone else to commit an act of violence against my neighbor, even through the ballot box.

You may want to be more specific. I googled "Third Position" and what I found was the fusion of the worst parts of fascism (hypernationalism, racism, and state control of morality) mixed with the worst parts of communism (complete state control all economic activity). If there's some specific meaning to that term in regards to the Arab/Israeli conflict I'd like to read about it.

PacifistAg said:

---

Ag4coal said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

And for those who vote in hopes of overturning Roe v Wade, Skye Jethani had a great thread about that:

---

There is little fact in this thread. It is well known that abortions skyrocketed after Roe v Wade. Any numbers about abortions prior to are all convenient "estimates". Like the "estimates" that thousands of women were dying each year from back alley abortions, which was proven to be false by the very same organization who first propogated the lie.

Thankfully, abortions are dropping each year. I think this has way more to do with the fact we are talking about Roe v Wade. We are showing that it is, in fact, a baby, and it's making people think twice about that choice. I know several families who chose to keep their "unwanted pregnancy". Who knows if they would have in the height of the sexual revolution, when sonograms were a figment of our imagination.

Overturning Roe v Wade would not end abortion overnight. Many states would keep it legal. Not all that different from the abolition of slavery not granting black people equal rights in half of the country. But, like the13th, 14th and 15th amendments, it can be a really good start in steering our country's moral compass in the right direction

---

Abortion numbers aren't dropping because we're talking about it. They've been dropping pretty consistently since the early 80's, regardless of the party in control. We did see a slight uptick around the same time Bush was pushing abstinence-only sex education. There are many likely reasons the numbers have been consistently decreasing for decades. More comprehensive sex education and greater access to birth control are probably the two biggest reasons.

But the party in power has had no discernable impact on those rates. Heck, I believe both parties prefer the status quo, including Republicans, because it is far too valuable as a political football to scare voters with. Since Roe v Wade, there have been 15 new SC justices placed on the bench. 11 of them by Republican presidents. They're no closer to overturning Roe today than they were then. And even if that pipe dream were realized, it only reverts it back to a state issue, and the overwhelming majority of states will maintain its legality. There are far more effective ways of combating abortion than compromising our witness by supporting vile men in the hopes they'll nominate the right people to overturn a court case.

---

We can agree to disagree as to WHY it is dropping, but fact is that the ratio of people that consider themselves "pro-life" has drastically increased and those that consider themselves "pro-choice" has significantly decreased as well. That's not because of brith control or sex-ed. It's because pro-life groups have attacked Roe v Wade with science. Science shows us when the heart beat arrives. Science shows us a baby feels pain pretty dang early. Science shows us what that 12 week old baby looks like, and it isn't a "clump of cells". The science has pushed people away from pro-choice, and it's fairly easy to see. No we're working on the philosophy of personhood. That is the next great gap to close. The other reason why it's dropping is because fertility rates as a whole have dropped, and I have pages to write on why I think that is. It's not healthy, to say the least.

You're right that the party in power hasn't done anything. But that doesn't stop us from trying. Trump, as much of a blowhard as he is, proves that people are TRYING to do something about it. Otherwise, I guess we can just roll over and take it.

PacifistAg said:

---

Ag4coal said:

---

PacifistAg said:

---

Should a Christian vote for a Democrat? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote for a Republican? Probably not.
Should a Christian vote? Probably not.
Should we make declarations about one's faith based on which violent, power-hungry party they vote for? No.

I think John Wesley is right here: ""I have been long convinced, from the whole tenor of ancient history, that this very event, Constantine's calling himself a Christian, and pouring in that flood of wealth and honour on the Christian Church, the Clergy in particular, was productive of more evil to the Church than all the ten persecutions put together. From the time that power, riches, and honour of all kinds were heaped upon the Christians, vice of all kinds came in like a flood, both on the Clergy and laity. From the time that the Church and State, the kingdoms of Christ and of the world were so strangely and unnaturally blended together, Christianity and Heathenism were so thoroughly incorporated with each other, that they will hardly ever be divided till Christ comes to reign upon earth."

---

I've never understood this. Not one bit. We are called to pray for our leaders. Our leaders are called to lead. In America, WE are the leaders. WE choose the people who represent US to make sure OUR leadership is carried out correctly. By choosing not to vote, you are ceding the leadership that God has ordained we have, either through His active or permissive will. We can not cede the responsibilities God gave us.

I don't blame anyone in current monarchies or banana republics for not trying to be active politically, but it is quite clear that we are the government, and therefore the leaders of our country. It's our duty.

---

If you think "we are the leaders", I don't know what to tell you. Yes, we pray for the leaders, just as the early Christians undoubtedly prayed for Caesar. If you truly believe you are a leader, I'll pray for you then. But we aren't the leaders in this country. Just because we get to go through the charade of voting doesn't make it so. I mean, if we were the "leaders", do you honestly believe moral degenerates like Trump or Biden would be the choices we have? No, it's not my "duty" to participate in this charade where people are given the illusion of power.

My responsibility is to serve others, not rule over them.

---

Just because we've done a poor job of leading (see Biden v Trump, Clinton v Trump, etc) doesn't mean we aren't the leaders. We, as a country, are just doing a piss poor job of it. It is nihilism to suggest otherwise. Nihilism says it's all (insert expletive) so I won't participate. In my opinion, since we, by the constitution, are given the right to govern ourselves, choosing to sit that out is choosing to let bad things happen to our country and our fellow man. I agree that my responsibility is to serve and love my fellow citizens. And I can not love or serve them by ceding my duty. Let's do it better and make it a holier process, not avoid it because it currently sucks.

PacifistAg said:

---

Btw, my decision to not vote isn't because I believe this is all a charade, which I do. My decision to not vote is based on my belief that as a follower of Christ, I'm called to a life of nonviolence. Since the state is inherently violent, and voting is an act to give others the legal right to use the state's violence against my neighbor, then I refuse to participate in such an act. If my neighbor wants Joe Biden to rule over him, that's his choice alone to make. I don't believe I have a valid moral right to tell my neighbor that "no, you must be ruled by Donald Trump because I say so". But if one embraces an ethic of Christian nonviolence, and they believe the state is inherently violent, then it's only logical that they reject participation in the machinery of the state, including the futile act of voting.

I won't commit an act of violence against my neighbor. I won't empower someone else to commit an act of violence against my neighbor, even through the ballot box.

---

I understand and respect your desire to live a life of non-violence, but you do live in a country where you have been given the power to help govern, both with your vote, or your potential calling to a life in public service. God ordains all leaders. We get to/have to choose our leaders. So we can actively participate in the responsibility God gave us in co-ordaining our representatives, or we can eschew our responsibility.

This is a very new experiment. The Church backed monarchies for centuries for a reason. Now that the power has been given to the masses, we have to do our best to use that power wisely. We are not in the time of the old monarchs where there is nothing we can do.

You seem to really have your heart in the right place so I don't want to seem like I'm trying to antagonize. I just think you've been disempowered of what rights and responsibilities God has given you with your time here on this earth. It may be a losing battle, much like the battle for many of the souls we meet, but it's still a battle worth fighting.