Jewish belief and afterlife

5,243 Views | 96 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Sb1540
brownbrick
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
agie95 said:

Please show where exactly righteousness is by belief in Jesus.


Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed fnfrom faith to faith; as it is written, "fnBUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Previously in the same passage he states that the gospel is:

2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3concerning His Son, who was born of a fndescendant of David according to the flesh,
4who was declared the Son of God with power fnby the resurrection from the dead, according to the fnSpirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship fnto bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as fnsaints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

From 2nd Corinthians 5:
17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, fnhe is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and fnHe has fncommitted to us the word of reconciliation.
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Isaiah 53: Messiah will offer himself as a guilt offering to bear the sins of many.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, fnputting Him to grief;
If fnHe would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His fnoffspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the fngood pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the fnanguish of His soul,
He will see fnit and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out fnHimself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

From Isaiah 45:
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."

Even the righteousness of Israel is only found in God.

Romans 5:

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, fnwe have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and fnwe exult in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only this, but fnwe also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; fnthough perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified fnby His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

On mobile, sorry for any ugly copy and paste.
commando2004
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
A nice concise explanation: http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
Quote:

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Paul said destruction, not eternal torment. And the word aionosis(excuse the spelling) has usually been translated as related to an age. Not eternity.
I don't even know what you're trying to prove. I already said I won't be able to find in Scripture whatever is in your head. Only what Scripture says.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Paul said destruction, not eternal torment. And the word aionosis(excuse the spelling) has usually been translated as related to an age. Not eternity.
I don't even know what you're trying to prove. I already said I won't be able to find in Scripture whatever is in your head. Only what Scripture says.
I quoted exact Scripture. Paul said destruction. And said all Israel will be saved. You said that Paul talked about hell a LOT. So where are the examples? And aionosis is in Scripture also. And means age, not eternity.

Why was the exact same word Sheol, in the original Scripture translated as hell half the time and the grave as half the time? And that is Scripture also.

And did you not say people are in "hell" now? That is not what Scripture says. Judgement Day has not happened.

And do you not believe that Scripture is inerrant? How do you explain the Scripture I quoted? And granted, I have a hard time reconciling my Christian universalist beliefs with some Scripture. And actually when you research what words like aionosis really mean, annihilationism probably is the most Scriptural.

But I realize I am not going to change your mind. I do not discount any Scripture you post. Please afford me the same courtesy as a brother in Christ. Thanks.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
A New Hope
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The wonder of Christian Brotherhood Is that one day when we all stand before the Lord, he will answer all these questions and we will see the genius of it all. Stay safe, Amen.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Fedup said:

The wonder of Christian Brotherhood Is that one day when we all stand before the Lord, he will answer all these questions and we will see the genius of it all. Stay safe, Amen.
You too. God bless.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Paul said destruction, not eternal torment. And the word aionosis(excuse the spelling) has usually been translated as related to an age. Not eternity.
I don't even know what you're trying to prove. I already said I won't be able to find in Scripture whatever is in your head. Only what Scripture says.
I quoted exact Scripture. Paul said destruction. And said all Israel will be saved. You said that Paul talked about hell a LOT. So where are the examples? And aionosis is in Scripture also. And means age, not eternity.

Why was the exact same word Sheol, in the original Scripture translated as hell half the time and the grave as half the time? And that is Scripture also.

And I'd you not say people are in "hell" now? That is not what Scripture says. Judgement Day has not happened.

And do you not believe that Scripture is inerrant? How do you explain the Scripture I quoted? And granted, I have a hard time reconciling my Christian universalist beliefs with some Scripture. And actually when you research what words like aionosis really mean, annihilationism probably is the most Scriptural.

But I realize I am not going to change your mind. I do not discount any Scripture you post. Please afford me the same courtesy as a brother in Christ. Thanks.
I know I'm not going to change your mind either, but I have yet to hear what you actually believe. Something about how words can mean different things, but I'm left with stirred up, muddy waters.

Let's start with a simple teaching of Jesus.
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

To me, this means some will suffer eternal punishment while others will enjoy eternal life. Do you agree?
commando2004
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Fedup said:


It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ.
So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
commando2004 said:

Fedup said:


It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ.
So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
There's no sin too large for God to forgive if that's what you're asking.

But Fedup's post is confusing anyway. If being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven' and you also don't get it without committing, how is anyone there?
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Interestingly you picked the one verse upon which the concept of ECT hell is based the most heavily on. The Greek form for "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is "kolasin aionin". Kolasin is a noun in the accusative form, singular voice, feminine gender and means punishment, chastening, correction, or to prune so as to bear more fruit.

Aionion is usually translated as pertaining to an age or an indeterminate period of time. And not as "eternal".

And numerous Bibles like Young's literal translation and the Concordant Literal translation do not contain those words as they are true to the original Greek and Hebrew.

I am not making stuff up. Or trying to muddy the waters. Just posting Scripture and different interpretations.

And you stated Paul and the disciples talked about hell a LOT. I am truly curious where is that in any Bible?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Interestingly you picked the one verse upon which the concept of ECT hell is based the most heavily on. The Greek form for "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is "kolasin aionin". Kolasin is a noun in the accusative form, singular voice, feminine gender and means punishment, chastening, correction, or to prune so as to bear more fruit.

Aionion is usually translated as pertaining to an age or an indeterminate period of time. And not as "eternal".

And numerous Bibles like Young's literal translation and the Concordant Literal translation do not contain those words as they are true to the original Greek and Hebrew.

I am not making stuff up. Or trying to muddy the waters. Just posting Scripture and different interpretations.

And you stated Paul and the disciples talked about hell a LOT. I am truly curious where is that in any Bible?
So I take it you don't agree. What does the verse mean then?
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption. That seems most compatible with the original Greek.
But I could see how you could interpret it differently.

And I understand how people could believe in ECT hell. But I do not think they are going to hell for having different views on non salvific issues. Do you?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption.
Show me a translation that says that. And how long with this corrective punishment last?
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
A useful source is TheHellverses.com.

Let me ask your interpretation of some verses

Colossians 1 19-20
For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell and through Him to reconcile Himself all things, whether on earth or in Heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.

Romans 5:18
Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.

Romans 11:32
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He May be merciful to all.

Luke 2 10-11
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy" for all the people.

John 3:17
For God sent not His Son to condemn the world, but that the world throw Him might be saved.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
And I also want to say that this is not meant to be mean spirited as you are my brother in Christ. I just happen to believe that the concept of ECT hell without any other alternatives has hurt Christianity and has had psychological impacts on kids brought up in hellfire and brimstone environments. Two people committed suicide after hearing Jonathan Edwards famous sermon "Sinner's in the hands of an angry God". I do not think that is what the gospel means.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
A New Hope
How long do you want to ignore this user?
commando2004 said:

Fedup said:


It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ.
So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Yes. I am comfortable with that. I don't decide whether his conversion is sincere or not. God does. God also decides what happens to Jews (Or anyone else) who don't accept Christ. Many men on death row for horrible crimes come to accept Christ. And I believe they are going to Heaven. Many perfectly nice people who never break the law but are atheists won't make it. That's not my call. But John 14:6 is very clear.

Why do you think you get to decide whether Eichmann goes to Heaven? You won't know if he's there until you get there. Are you going to hold a grudge against God simply because he MIGHT be going there? Are you going to turn your back on the Lord simply because it's possibly he MIGHT be there? Are you going to get to Heaven then decide you don't want to be there because Eichmann is there?

Will I decide I don't want to be in Heaven because a bunch of atheists make it?? No. I won't. I'll be in Heaven.

What we're discussing is what WE, as flawed simple humans, think about what the Master of the Universe thinks and believes and has planned. Good luck with that.

This is a discussion of simpletons.



A New Hope
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Martin Q. Blank said:

commando2004 said:

Fedup said:


It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ.
So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
There's no sin too large for God to forgive if that's what you're asking.

But Fedup's post is confusing anyway. If being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven' and you also don't get it without committing, how is anyone there?
Not sure why my post is confusing. Being a good person doesn't mean you are a Christian and believe Christ died for your sins. I know plenty of nice people who are atheist. Plenty.

It's simple imo. Either you accept Christ or you don't. That's the commitment I'm talking about. By the same token, ALL Christians continue to sin after accepting Christ. We all do. That doesn't mean we don't believe in Christ. It doesn't mean we don't believe Christ died to us. The goal for us is to TRY to live a God centered life, TRY.

I'm very comfortable with my beliefs and approach each day. I'm certain all of you are as well.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I really like your last two posts. We may disagree slightly on some things but we are still brothers in Christ. And I am definitely a simpleton. And a sinner. Thanks.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.


Then google is lying. I posted exactly what they said.

Just re googled Young's literal translation says punishment age during instead of eternal punishment and the same for the righteous to life age during.

The actual word for word verse in entirety is And these shall go away to punishment age during, but the righteous to life age during.

As I stated earlier, an age is different than eternal.

Concordant Literal version entire verse

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Are you seeing something different? I quoted it directly, just not the whole thing earlier but the pertinent words.

I am confused. What do you think those translations say?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
And may I ask what you think of the verses I posted? Honestly curious.

And also curious where Paul talked about hell a lot?

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
commando2004
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Fedup said:

Why do you think you get to decide whether Eichmann goes to Heaven?


Did I claim that I did? That would be rather presumptuous.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
David Bentley Hart The New Testament: A Translation
Matthew 25:46
And these will go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.


Then google is lying. I posted exactly what they said.

Just re googled Young's literal translation says punishment age during instead of eternal punishment and the same for the righteous to life age during.

The actual word for word verse in entirety is And these shall go away to punishment age during, but the righteous to life age during.

As I stated earlier, an age is different than eternal.

Concordant Literal version entire verse

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Are you seeing something different? I quoted it directly, just not the whole thing earlier but the pertinent words.

I am confused. What do you think those translations say?
Not what you said:
I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption.

So in your view, life is not eternal? Just an "age", whatever that means?
one MEEN Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Fedup said:

commando2004 said:

Fedup said:


It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ.
So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Yes. I am comfortable with that. I don't decide whether his conversion is sincere or not. God does. God also decides what happens to Jews (Or anyone else) who don't accept Christ. Many men on death row for horrible crimes come to accept Christ. And I believe they are going to Heaven. Many perfectly nice people who never break the law but are atheists won't make it. That's not my call. But John 14:6 is very clear.

Why do you think you get to decide whether Eichmann goes to Heaven? You won't know if he's there until you get there. Are you going to hold a grudge against God simply because he MIGHT be going there? Are you going to turn your back on the Lord simply because it's possibly he MIGHT be there? Are you going to get to Heaven then decide you don't want to be there because Eichmann is there?

Will I decide I don't want to be in Heaven because a bunch of atheists make it?? No. I won't. I'll be in Heaven.

What we're discussing is what WE, as flawed simple humans, think about what the Master of the Universe thinks and believes and has planned. Good luck with that.

This is a discussion of simpletons.




John 14:6 says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Its very clear that Jesus is the gatekeeper here, but Jesus is also the perfect sacrifice for all sinners. That one line can also be interpreted that God the Father gives Jesus exclusive right to decide who enters the Father's court, and Jesus could refuse to deny anyone. That statement, at least in english, tells us more about who Jesus is and His authority moreso than who we are and how we get to Heaven.

Thats the part with relying on one verse, and why I think there is this debate in the first place.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.


Then google is lying. I posted exactly what they said.

Just re googled Young's literal translation says punishment age during instead of eternal punishment and the same for the righteous to life age during.

The actual word for word verse in entirety is And these shall go away to punishment age during, but the righteous to life age during.

As I stated earlier, an age is different than eternal.

Concordant Literal version entire verse

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Are you seeing something different? I quoted it directly, just not the whole thing earlier but the pertinent words.

I am confused. What do you think those translations say?
Not what you said:
I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption.

So in your view, life is not eternal? Just an "age", whatever that means?


Oh I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were questioning the sources. Chastening to me means a corrective measure. Age means a period of time to me.

What do you think those mean?

And there are other translations which say more along what I was saying. Check out the John Mitchell New Testament.

Still curious what your interpretation of the more universalist verses I posted. I gave my interpretation of your verse. Agree that one verse is the most difficult for a non ECT person to explain.

And where does Paul talk about hell? Isn't it strange that if a place of eternal conscious torment existed then shouldn't Paul have emphasized that?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

Quote:

So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Yes. I am comfortable with that.
So let's do a thought experiment. You have two Jewish prisoners in Nazi camps. One has been preached the Gospel and was not convinced. The other has not ever heard the Gospel. Jewish communities can be very insular, so this is not outside the realm of possibility. In your view, what happens to each after their death in the camp?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

Quote:

So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Yes. I am comfortable with that.
So let's do a thought experiment. You have two Jewish prisoners in Nazi camps. One has been preached the Gospel and was not convinced. The other has not ever heard the Gospel. Jewish communities can be very insular, so this is not outside the realm of possibility. In your view, what happens to each after their death in the camp?


I believe it comes down to what you think the character of God is. I look to Jesus as what the character of God is. So I think He will show mercy.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
agie95
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
John 14:6 are 3 ways to say Torah - The Way, The Truth, and the Life. All three are described referencing Torah using those terms many times in Torah. This was set at the beginning of John talking about what Yeshua was....the word. Not literally obviously, but lived his life in a way that he was considered a walking Torah.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.


Then google is lying. I posted exactly what they said.

Just re googled Young's literal translation says punishment age during instead of eternal punishment and the same for the righteous to life age during.

The actual word for word verse in entirety is And these shall go away to punishment age during, but the righteous to life age during.

As I stated earlier, an age is different than eternal.

Concordant Literal version entire verse

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Are you seeing something different? I quoted it directly, just not the whole thing earlier but the pertinent words.

I am confused. What do you think those translations say?
Not what you said:
I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption.

So in your view, life is not eternal? Just an "age", whatever that means?


Oh I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were questioning the sources. Chastening to me means a corrective measure. Age means a period of time to me.

What do you think those mean?

And there are other translations which say more along what I was saying. Check out the John Mitchell New Testament.

Still curious what your interpretation of the more universalist verses I posted. I gave my interpretation of your verse. Agree that one verse is the most difficult for a non ECT person to explain.

And where does Paul talk about hell? Isn't it strange that if a place of eternal conscious torment existed then shouldn't Paul have emphasized that?
The same word is used for punishment and life. Are they both eternal or temporary?
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.


Then google is lying. I posted exactly what they said.

Just re googled Young's literal translation says punishment age during instead of eternal punishment and the same for the righteous to life age during.

The actual word for word verse in entirety is And these shall go away to punishment age during, but the righteous to life age during.

As I stated earlier, an age is different than eternal.

Concordant Literal version entire verse

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Are you seeing something different? I quoted it directly, just not the whole thing earlier but the pertinent words.

I am confused. What do you think those translations say?
Not what you said:
I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption.

So in your view, life is not eternal? Just an "age", whatever that means?


Oh I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were questioning the sources. Chastening to me means a corrective measure. Age means a period of time to me.

What do you think those mean?

And there are other translations which say more along what I was saying. Check out the John Mitchell New Testament.

Still curious what your interpretation of the more universalist verses I posted. I gave my interpretation of your verse. Agree that one verse is the most difficult for a non ECT person to explain.

And where does Paul talk about hell? Isn't it strange that if a place of eternal conscious torment existed then shouldn't Paul have emphasized that?
The same word is used for punishment and life. Are they both eternal or temporary?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
A New Hope
How long do you want to ignore this user?
one MEEN Ag said:

Fedup said:

commando2004 said:

Fedup said:


It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ.
So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Yes. I am comfortable with that. I don't decide whether his conversion is sincere or not. God does. God also decides what happens to Jews (Or anyone else) who don't accept Christ. Many men on death row for horrible crimes come to accept Christ. And I believe they are going to Heaven. Many perfectly nice people who never break the law but are atheists won't make it. That's not my call. But John 14:6 is very clear.

Why do you think you get to decide whether Eichmann goes to Heaven? You won't know if he's there until you get there. Are you going to hold a grudge against God simply because he MIGHT be going there? Are you going to turn your back on the Lord simply because it's possibly he MIGHT be there? Are you going to get to Heaven then decide you don't want to be there because Eichmann is there?

Will I decide I don't want to be in Heaven because a bunch of atheists make it?? No. I won't. I'll be in Heaven.

What we're discussing is what WE, as flawed simple humans, think about what the Master of the Universe thinks and believes and has planned. Good luck with that.

This is a discussion of simpletons.




John 14:6 says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Its very clear that Jesus is the gatekeeper here, but Jesus is also the perfect sacrifice for all sinners. That one line can also be interpreted that God the Father gives Jesus exclusive right to decide who enters the Father's court, and Jesus could refuse to deny anyone. That statement, at least in english, tells us more about who Jesus is and His authority moreso than who we are and how we get to Heaven.

Thats the part with relying on one verse, and why I think there is this debate in the first place.
And I agree with you 100%. Jesus is going to decide who gets to Heaven. Our discussion is all well and good but we don't decide anything. If Christ decides all atheists make it to Heaven or all Jews who don't recognize him as the Messiah or all Nazis or no Nazis, it's still not our decision to make. That's beyond our purview. Personally. I believe you have to accept Christ to get to Heaven with the caveat that some people never hear or heard The Word or are too young to decide for themselves whether to accept Him.

It all makes for great debate. Hopefully we all learn things about The Word and draw closer to the Lord because of our discussion. Amen.
A New Hope
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

Quote:

So, are you comfortable with the thought that, for example, Adolf Eichmann is now in heaven (assuming that his pre-execution confession was sincere), while the Jews he murdered are burning in Hell eternally for not accepting Jesus?
Yes. I am comfortable with that.
So let's do a thought experiment. You have two Jewish prisoners in Nazi camps. One has been preached the Gospel and was not convinced. The other has not ever heard the Gospel. Jewish communities can be very insular, so this is not outside the realm of possibility. In your view, what happens to each after their death in the camp?
Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

dermdoc said:

I gave you two examples. You look them up. Young's says punishment age-during. Concordant says chastening eonian or age.

And there are many more.

Now you tell me where Paul talked about hell a LOT.
None of those translations said what you said.


Then google is lying. I posted exactly what they said.

Just re googled Young's literal translation says punishment age during instead of eternal punishment and the same for the righteous to life age during.

The actual word for word verse in entirety is And these shall go away to punishment age during, but the righteous to life age during.

As I stated earlier, an age is different than eternal.

Concordant Literal version entire verse

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Are you seeing something different? I quoted it directly, just not the whole thing earlier but the pertinent words.

I am confused. What do you think those translations say?
Not what you said:
I take it to mean corrective punishment for a time to bring about redemption.

So in your view, life is not eternal? Just an "age", whatever that means?


Oh I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were questioning the sources. Chastening to me means a corrective measure. Age means a period of time to me.

What do you think those mean?

And there are other translations which say more along what I was saying. Check out the John Mitchell New Testament.

Still curious what your interpretation of the more universalist verses I posted. I gave my interpretation of your verse. Agree that one verse is the most difficult for a non ECT person to explain.

And where does Paul talk about hell? Isn't it strange that if a place of eternal conscious torment existed then shouldn't Paul have emphasized that?
The same word is used for punishment and life. Are they both eternal or temporary?

Did you mean to write something?
Page 2 of 3
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.