Can someone explain to me how Jews get to 'Heaven'? It's my understanding that Jewish people have to obey the 'rules' in order to satisfy their religion, if that's the case, then how can conservative and reformed synagogues exist at all? Seems like Orthodox Jews would be the only 'real Jews'.

Thanks for any clarification.

The term Jew does not map over to Christian or Muslim. It is primarily a tribal/ethnic designation, not a belief system. So plenty of Jews are atheist. An Orthodox Jew might argue that they hold the wrong beliefs but they're still Jews.

Full disclosure: I'm not Jewish.

But I've known and spoken with more than a few. In general, the Jewish faith is not focused on the afterlife. It's focused on this life. Basically, just be the best person you can be and live the best life you can. God is good and just, and whatever happens after death is under His control.

The Reform, Conservative, Orthodox distinction has more to do with modernism versus tradition. Orthodox sticks pretty close the Mishnah and Talmud. Reform tries to adapt those teachings to modern times and attitudes. Conservative is in between. They all have the same goal of using Torah as a guide to the best life, but they disagree on the details.

To remark on the above, you become a Jew by birth or by belief. As far as I know, the only way to stop being a Jew is to convert to another religion. Since atheism isn't a religion it doesn't qualify

Looking back to the ancient Jews, their worldview was that good and evil both go to the grave-shoel. The afterlife was for God to sort out. Gods promises in the Old Testament are centered around blessing them in their lifetime.

The promised land was/is God's promise to Jews while on this Earth. They were meant to be a priests among nations and live a holy life in this world.

Appreciate the replies. If Jews are focused on this life and not the next, then why bother following the rules? They have tons of rules to follow. What gets you to "heaven" in their world? Also, it was always my understanding that the only Real way to be Jewish Is to have a Jewish mother.

Fedup said:

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Appreciate the replies. If Jews are focused on this life and not the next, then why bother following the rules? They have tons of rules to follow. What gets you to "heaven" in their world? Also, it was always my understanding that the only Real way to be Jewish Is to have a Jewish mother.

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You bother with the rules because glorifying and pleasing God brings about the most joyful and abundant life. Jesus was the atonement to make up for what the Law could not do. To make us whole. So essentially, He became the Law. And His atonement was for every person, thus the words "It is finished". And yet men have tried to "add things" for two centuries. The Gospel, or good news, was never meant to condemn.

And when a Christ instructed His disciples after His return, He did not tell them to go and save people from Hell.
He told Peter to "feed my sheep". And instructed His disciples to proclaim the Gospel, good news.

I understand the Christian view, I'm simply trying to gain some clarity on the Jewish view. I had a discussion with a friend (also non Jewish) re Jewish beliefs and how conservative reformed and orthodox sects of Judaism can exist at all. How the reformed and orthodox justify their belief since their (All jews) only way to Make it to heaven seems to be by following the rules and reformed and conservative sects don't follow the same rules as orthodox which I assume was the original view. Jews obviously don't believe in Jesus other than he was a man they had executed. They're still waiting for their Messiah. When the fact is He's already Risen.

Romans 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved, the Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness away from Jacob.

God always keeps His covenants.

With regard to first century Jews, most were Sadducees, who were the dominant group, Pharisees and Essenes were a minority but more closely reflect the beliefs of the early Christians and of post temple Judaism. The Sadducees rejected belief in an afterlife all together and also didn't accept many of the books of the OT that the Pharisees did as being authoritative law. But the Sadducees ran the temple and when it fell their beliefs were too closely linked and they dissolved. So the writing we have about them is from unfriendly sources.

Fedup said:

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Appreciate the replies. If Jews are focused on this life and not the next, then why bother following the rules? They have tons of rules to follow. What gets you to "heaven" in their world? Also, it was always my understanding that the only Real way to be Jewish Is to have a Jewish mother.

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Congrats on finding the first stumbling block of the ancient jews and also one of the first major controversies surrounding false teaching in the new testament.

God's covenant with the ancient israelites were to bless them in their lifetime. Think all the way back to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God created man to share in His blessings, and share in His dominion over all things. The promised land was supposed to be their peace on earth, a reward for their struggles, and also a holy land where other nations could see that God is working and blessing people in this land.

Once established in the promised land, you see the israelites running off in every direction to satisfy their own desires. Just like you said- 'why not as we all die the same'? The same things that were the downfall of men back then are the same you see today. Sex, money, power, hatred, envy, etc. It was always a heart issue. They never could see through that the commandments were there to create blessings. Sin gives rise to its own negative consequences.

Jesus comes along and says He is the fulfillment of the law- you're free! You're no longer a slave to sin, be forgiven and sin no more He says. Then you've got the first round of bad theology rearing its head. If our sinning is forgiven, why not just keep at it? And that misses the whole point.

We are supposed to bring the good news to everyone, sharing love and goodness. This is how we live more abundantly on this earth.

You and I have very similar theologies.

Fedup said:

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I understand the Christian view, I'm simply trying to gain some clarity on the Jewish view. I had a discussion with a friend (also non Jewish) re Jewish beliefs and how conservative reformed and orthodox sects of Judaism can exist at all. How the reformed and orthodox justify their belief since their (All jews) only way to Make it to heaven seems to be by following the rules and reformed and conservative sects don't follow the same rules as orthodox which I assume was the original view. Jews obviously don't believe in Jesus other than he was a man they had executed. They're still waiting for their Messiah. When the fact is He's already Risen.

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I think part of your problem in understanding this is the western logical thinking that demands all things be determined with accuracy. When questioned about afterlife, heaven, correct doctrine, etc, it's much more acceptable of a Jew to say they don't really know and have multiple views on it than it is for us. Jewish culture is more tolerant of opposing viewpoints, which is why there's hardly a dozen Jewish "denominations" compared to 10,000 in Christianity. Jews view going to synagogue as more of a way to stay connected, make friends, be encouraged, etc than a desire for religious doctrinal determination, compared to westerners. So, if you want to know what a Jew believes about how you get to heaven, the response they give might be something along the lines of "We don't know, but that's okay. Any other questions?"

dermdoc said:

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Romans 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved, the Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness away from Jacob.

God always keeps His covenants.

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So, it's your personal belief that Jews don't need to accept Christ to be saved because of a covenant that the Lord made with them before Christ came to die for us?

Imo, as a Christian, Jews need to repent and accept Christ in order to be saved. Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone just convert to Judaism and be done with it? Guaranteed salvation and entrance to Heaven.

It seems to me that most Modern Jews Don't follow their own religions original tenets. Setting up conservative and reformed sects was their way of making their path an easier one but I don't think it's one that the Lord approves of. Anymore than the Lord approves of offshoot Christian denominations that don't adhere to Biblical beliefs.

My 0.02. Appreciate all the opinions and counter arguments.

I just posted the Scripture which seems pretty self evident to me. I am pretty much a Christian universalist and do not believe in an eternal conscious torment hell. So you and I probably disagree on that.

Numerous verses to support my views but you are probably aware of those. Gospel means good news. The angels at Christ's birth proclaimed good news for all men. Even the parable of the sheep and goats, they are divided on being good or evil, not on saying the sinner's prayer. In fact, the sinner's prayer is nowhere in the Bible.

Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Farher except by me. So He determines it imho. The question is how inclusive is Jesus? From my readings especially with things like the adulteress, the "sinful" woman who anointed Christ's feet, parables like the prodigal son, and the lost sheep and lamb.

In fact, the only people Jesus condemned were the religious leaders

Win At Life said:

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Fedup said:

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I understand the Christian view, I'm simply trying to gain some clarity on the Jewish view. I had a discussion with a friend (also non Jewish) re Jewish beliefs and how conservative reformed and orthodox sects of Judaism can exist at all. How the reformed and orthodox justify their belief since their (All jews) only way to Make it to heaven seems to be by following the rules and reformed and conservative sects don't follow the same rules as orthodox which I assume was the original view. Jews obviously don't believe in Jesus other than he was a man they had executed. They're still waiting for their Messiah. When the fact is He's already Risen.

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I think part of your problem in understanding this is the western logical thinking that demands all things be determined with accuracy. When questioned about afterlife, heaven, correct doctrine, etc, it's much more acceptable of a Jew to say they don't really know and have multiple views on it than it is for us. Jewish culture is more tolerant of opposing viewpoints, which is why there's hardly a dozen Jewish "denominations" compared to 10,000 in Christianity. Jews view going to synagogue as more of a way to stay connected, make friends, be encouraged, etc than a desire for religious doctrinal determination, compared to westerners. So, if you want to know what a Jew believes about how you get to heaven, the response they give might be something along the lines of "We don't know, but that's okay. Any other questions?"

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I think this nails it.

There are Jews who are yoga instructors, practicing Buddhists, atheists, etc. etc. I think you're exactly right on the typical Jewish response.

Note: My SIL is Jewish and I hang out with her family a bit, so that is my primary point of reference here. For them it is important to keep the Jewish holy days and feasts etc. but they are less rigid on enforcing belief on everyone. You can believe what you want but you're still part of the family.

I think American Christianity tends to be the opposite: almost no formal rituals, rules or requirements, only stated belief. Believe something slightly different and you are out of the family (denomination).

So trying to enforce an American Christian perspective on Jews is bound to fail. But that's just my opinion.

If you want an interesting discussion from a reformed Jewish point of view listen to this:

Interesting discussion.

One of my best friends is Jewish though never really religious. He turns and marries a girl from Israel who would attend orthodox temple if he'd agree.

I don't believe that she thinks we're all part of the family. I think she believes that either you're born Jewish or your not Jewish. She doesn't believe in people like Kate capshaw concerting to Judaism or such.

It's my belief that Christ died for us all but you've still got to accept him to receive the gift of eternal salvation. You don't just get it without committing. Being a good person doesn't get you to 'Christian heaven'. Having said that, I don't believe jews get to heaven without accepting Christ. I don't think that once Christ came for everyone the old covenant of simply being born to a Jewish mother applies any longer. Otherwise why would so many Jews covert to Christianity and follow Christ when he walked this earth and immediately after his crucifixion?

I was taught that in Sunday School also but can not find scriptural evidence for that theology. Do you know of a Scripture that specifically says that Jews are not going to Heaven? Paul says they will be saved per the Scripture I gave.

And you worship a God who is going to send your Jewish friend and his wife to eternal punishment worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews?

And that brings up a theological question, who is going to "hell"? The supposedly Christian Nazis(Many were Lutheran so they would have been born again by Protestant standards)? Or the Jews they tortured and killed?

Fedup said:

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I don't believe that she thinks we're all part of the family. I think she believes that either you're born Jewish or your not Jewish. She doesn't believe in people like Kate capshaw concerting to Judaism or such.

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Yeah, sorry if I was unclear...the family I was referring to was Jews, not all of humanity. So you are either Jewish or you're not. If you are a Jew you can't become non-Jewish by believing something "wrong" and if you're not a Jew you can't become Jewish just by believing something "right". Although not everyone agrees with that, but I believe that's generally how it's worked for Jews for a while.

So I don't think you can ask "how can you not believe X and consider yourself a Jew?"

Whereas you can ask "How can you not believe in the Trinity and consider yourself a Christian?"

dermdoc said:

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I was taught that in Sunday School also but can not find scriptural evidence for that theology. Do you know of a Scripture that specifically says that Jews are not going to Heaven? Paul says they will be saved per the Scripture I gave.

And you worship a God who is going to send your Jewish friend and his wife to eternal punishment worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews?

And that brings up a theological question, who is going to "hell"? The supposedly Christian Nazis(Many were Lutheran so they would have been born again by Protestant standards)? Or the Jews they tortured and killed?

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Sorry to be that person but yes, I do believe that if my Jewish friend and wife don't accept Christ as their savior, they're going to be lost. Same with my atheist friend that died a few years ago. He didn't believe in Christ, he was a good man but we all know that works don't get you to heaven. Accept the gift of salvation and make Jesus Christ your savior or burn. It is that simple. Otherwise, I guess all the tribes that the Jews slaughtered eons back are all going to heaven too? I think that's nonsense. I don't know how God handles the situation of people who died before Christ or those who never heard the Word. That's way way way beyond my purview. And I'm glad for it.

If you believe that the Lord is so all loving that even those who don't believe in him and his Son will be saved, then I have to ask what denomination you are. There's no doctrine that states that.

John 14:6 - I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me.

Yes, there will be a lot of horrible people on this Earth who will make it to heaven because they've repented or will. Paul was as horrible a Christian persecutor as there ever was and he became one of the greatest witnesses of Jesus' love. Redemption is available to all. But you must believe and accept Christ.

I go to a non denominational church but was raised Southern Baptist. Been Deacon chair twice, head of every committe, and taught Sunday School for years.

I do not think the God I know and love through the saving grace provided by Christ's blood would torture anyone for eternity simply because they did not say the sinner's prayer. Or "accept Jesus into their heart"(which also is not Biblical or in any Scriptures).

I do not think the billions of people who have lived on this Earth who never heard of Jesus are in eternal conscious hell. I do not believe I baptized infants, like St. Augustine did, go to hell.

The God I worship loves us all. And Jesus died for us all.

TLDR version: I don't answer OP question about Jewish belief, so skip this post if you are looking for input there.

Dermdoc,

I think there are plenty of scripture that support the idea that faith is required.

Hebrews 11 gives examples of faith leading to righteousness in the old testament.

Jesus - referring to the brazen serpent - said, "So must the Son of Man be lifted up." In the old testament story, those with enough faith to look to the serpent and believe they would be healed were healed. So also, Jesus says, you must have enough faith to look to the cross and believe your sins will be forgiven.

I don't think the OP was asking for a hypothetical game of let's judge people against the Nazis. Even some who profess Jesus will later say, "I never knew you." So Jesus will sort all that out. And even for those who did believe there will still be the judgement seat of Christ. Churches that teach be saved and don't change aren't giving their congregation the full gospel. There will still be consequences for sin for the believer, even in the afterlife - it just won't be eternal separation.

"Your faith has made you well, go and sin no more."

As for the lake of fire references, in Revelation when the dragon is getting thrown in the lake after the 1000 year reign of Jesus what is said about the beast and false prophet who were thrown in 1000 years earlier? "Throw him in the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet ARE." They didn't leave, it's present tense. They weren't consumed, they are still there.

Personally I think many of the references to Gehenna are parts of the judgments for Christians who persist in sin. This is different from the lake of fire which means your name has been blotted out of the book of life.

dermdoc said:

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I go to a non denominational church but was raised Southern Baptist. Been Deacon chair twice, head of every committe, and taught Sunday School for years.

I do not think the God I know and love through the saving grace provided by Christ's blood would torture anyone for eternity simply because they did not say the sinner's prayer. Or "accept Jesus into their heart"(which also is not Biblical or in any Scriptures.

I do not think the billions of people who have lived on this Earth who never heard of Jesus are in eternal conscious hell. I'd o not believe I baptized infants, like St. Augustine did, go to hell.

The God I worship loves us all. And Jesus died for us all.

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What lies ahead for those who don't go to heaven is a separate topic but fwiw, I've been seventh day Adventist for two decades (though considering switching to Non denomination bible church)and we don't believe in eternal damnation and burning eternally. We believe that you'll be consumed quickly and be done with. Satan however will burn forever.

For those persons or children who never heard the Word or reached an age of "consent"...I don't know what's going to happen to them but I think they've got an easier path than those who walked on this Earth and simply refused to Accept Christ. There will be people lost. There will be people lost. In Revelation, when Christ returns, there will be those people who are lifted from the grave to meet Christ in the clouds of glory and those that are burnt up. Choose wisely.

I'd like to apologize for getting off topic. My apologies for any offense taken. I really appreciate the input regarding Jewish belief.

Fair enough. And I am sure you realize that a lot of Christian theologians do not agree with you on your interpretation. Or with mine. Which is fine.

The problem becomes when someone disagrees with a fellow Christian on a non salvific doctrine like the concept of hell(eternal conscious torment, annihilationism, universalism, and all the variants thereof) and tells the othe Christian they are "hell bound" unless they agree with them. And even more fascinating is ECT hell saints got along fine with Universalist saints for the most part. In fact, Augustine, who is probably more responsible for the concept of ECT hell than any other person, even said that the universalists were "soft hearted" and we should not let the theology of hell keep people from the Gospel. It is a very, very interesting subject that I have spent many hours over the years researching. Not near as cut and dried like I was taught in Baptist Sunday School.

And the Bible says all kinds of things about faith, baptism, repentance and it seems to change a little throughout the text.

In the parable of the sheep and goats, what criteria did Jesus use for the separation? It was merely good vs evil. No mention of baptism, faith, repentance, etc. Now I am a baptized born again Christian with faith that I believe was a gift from God. I refuse to judge others or think God can not save anyone and everyone,

And this very thread kind of proves my point. We all have different ways of thinking about these topics with many different views. It does not mean that someone who does not agree with me on non salvific issues is "going to hell".

And the whole way of turn or burn evangelism is nowhere to be found in the Bible. I fear that the mostly Western concept of ECT hell has caused a lot more problems and lack of faith than good. Nobody should be scared into a relationship with Christ.

And edited to add that there were Holy Fathers who were universalists and those that were ECT hell folks. Yet they were still in the same Church. Not all these denominations we have now.

Fedup said:

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dermdoc said:

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I go to a non denominational church but was raised Southern Baptist. Been Deacon chair twice, head of every committe, and taught Sunday School for years.

I do not think the God I know and love through the saving grace provided by Christ's blood would torture anyone for eternity simply because they did not say the sinner's prayer. Or "accept Jesus into their heart"(which also is not Biblical or in any Scriptures.

I do not think the billions of people who have lived on this Earth who never heard of Jesus are in eternal conscious hell. I'd o not believe I baptized infants, like St. Augustine did, go to hell.

The God I worship loves us all. And Jesus died for us all.

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What lies ahead for those who don't go to heaven is a separate topic but fwiw, I've been seventh day Adventist for two decades (though considering switching to Non denomination bible church)and we don't believe in eternal damnation and burning eternally. We believe that you'll be consumed quickly and be done with. Satan however will burn forever.

For those persons or children who never heard the Word or reached an age of "consent"...I don't know what's going to happen to them but I think they've got an easier path than those who walked on this Earth and simply refused to Accept Christ. There will be people lost. There will be people lost. In Revelation, when Christ returns, there will be those people who are lifted from the grave to meet Christ in the clouds of glory and those that are burnt up. Choose wisely.

I'd like to apologize for getting off topic. My apologies for any offense taken. I really appreciate the input regarding Jewish belief.

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No problems at all.

I thoroughly enjoyed it. To repeat, I think Christianity really lost a lot when they took away the Jewish lens of looking at Scripture. IMHO, it was kind of like the schism which I believe threw out the baby with the bath water.

Quote:

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In the parable of the sheep and goats, what criteria did Jesus use for the separation? It was merely good vs evil. No mention of baptism, faith, repentance, etc.

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I didn't say works were required for salvation. So I'm not sure what baptism and repentance have to do with it. But as for faith and eternal judgment here is the whole passage:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The question we should be asking is 'what made them righteous?' Not just based on this limited passage but based on the whole teaching of scripture and what did Jesus himself speaks about this. I'd argue it's an issue of faith.

"I the the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except through me."

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

"36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them."

In fact the purpose of the whole book of John is written to answer this very question. "30 Therefore many other [g]signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is [h]the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

I digress. I'm not sure what your disagreement is anyway. Righteousness comes by faith in Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.

aggiegirl1970 said:

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If this place of torment is so certain, why wouldn't have Jesus, Paul, the other Apostles made it CRYSTAL clear that if you don't put your faith in Christ, you will die and go to hell?

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Are you serious or just not aware that all of those people taught about hell, a LOT?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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aggiegirl1970 said:

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If this place of torment is so certain, why wouldn't have Jesus, Paul, the other Apostles made it CRYSTAL clear that if you don't put your faith in Christ, you will die and go to hell?

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Are you serious or just not aware that all of those people taught about hell, a LOT?

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When did Pail mention hell(or actually since that word did not exist then)Gehenna? I believe Peter mentioned Tartarus once. And where was the concept of hell in the OT? Why was the same word Sheol translated half the time as grave(the right translation) and half the time as hell(the word did not exist at the time of the OT writings)?

And when Jesus mentioned Gehenna(which somehow got translated to the created word hell)to a Jewish audience who never had conceived of eternal torment) why would He not explain to them what He meant? And was "hell" created after the OT?

Lots of questions and lots of Scripture talking about good news for all men. Drawing every man to Him. Every knee shall bow

And I understand I am not going to change your mind. And you can find Scripture to support ECT. Or annihilationism.

All I ask is can we agree that this is a non salvific issue? So that it does not keep people from experiencing a relationship with Christ?.

Even Augustine was okay with that.

And fwiw my wife is a hell believer. She is alit meaner than me.

Note, these distinctions are a broad stroke and not everyone who considers themselves in said category will fit the broad stroke.

Reform - They will light a fire on Shabbat, drive on Shabbat, watch tv and movies on Shabbat. Will shop, travel, etc on Shabbat. I have known some who even eat pork. Basically a social club. Some Jews believe the reform movement, which is approx. 100 years old was the reason for the Holocaust. Right or wrong that is what some believe. Just about anyone can convert to reform.

Conservative - This category can be a little broad. Generally speaking these are Jews who want to adhere to the Torah. The halacha (the way they walk out Torah) is a little different though. For instance, Orthodox sit men separately from women in the synagogue and other events like weddings, etc. This isn't a commandment. Conservative typically sit in families. Conservative seem to be more of a blending of the two worlds. A little more selective on who can convert, but generally after a year or two one can convert.

Orthodox - The observance level increases. Very hard to convert or the conversion program is expensive. One must move to the eruv (designated place within walking distance to shul). Adhere to the Torah even more so than the typical Orthodox Jew. You have to really know the halacha here. There are some new programs that don't require more than the typical Orthodox Jew, but they are expensive. Typically these are the only conversions recognized by Israel, but not all of them. Very political unfortunately.

In general Jews believe in a purgatory. They believe all but the extremely wicked will one day be in "heaven". Jews don't believe people go to heaven, but back to a Gan Eden. Purgatory lasts up to 12 months depending on how much purifying the soul needs.

99% of Jews who know their Bible will never accept Jesus as Messiah. Jesus did not teach to stop following Torah, yet Christians do teach this. The reason Jews cannot and should not follow Christianity is this:

Deuteronomy 13"1-5:

"Whatever I command you, you must take care to doyou are not to add to it or take away from it.

2 "Suppose a prophet or a dreamer of dreams rises up among you and gives you a sign or wonder, 3 and the sign or wonder he spoke to you comes true, while saying, 'Let's follow other gods'that you have not known, and'Let's serve them!' 4 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreamsfor Adonai your God is testing you, to find out whether you love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 Adonai your God you will follow and Him you will fear. His mitzvot you will keep, to His voice you will listen, Him you will serve and to Him you will cling.


One is never to stop following Torah and if someone comes along and says to, you must not listen to that person. God is only testing you. For a Jew is to love God and God clearly states throughout the Torah that to love God is to follow Torah...not mechanically though.

Anyone claiming that the only way to "heaven" is Jesus doesn't understand what John was writing.

Please show where exactly righteousness is by belief in Jesus.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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aggiegirl1970 said:

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If this place of torment is so certain, why wouldn't have Jesus, Paul, the other Apostles made it CRYSTAL clear that if you don't put your faith in Christ, you will die and go to hell?

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Are you serious or just not aware that all of those people taught about hell, a LOT?

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When did Pail mention hell(or actually since that word did not exist then)Gehenna? I believe Peter mentioned Tartarus once. And where was the concept of hell in the OT? Why was the same word Sheol translated half the time as grave(the right translation) and half the time as hell(the word did not exist at the time of the OT writings)?

And when Jesus mentioned Gehenna(which somehow got translated to the created word hell)to a Jewish audience who never had conceived of eternal torment) why would He not explain to them what He meant? And was "hell" created after the OT?

Lots of questions and lots of Scripture talking about good news for all men. Drawing every man to Him. Every knee shall bow

And I understand I am not going to change your mind. And you can find Scripture to support ECT. Or annihilationism.

All I ask is can we agree that this is a non salvific issue? So that it does not keep people from experiencing a relationship with Christ?.

Even Augustine was okay with that.

And fwiw my wife is a hell believer. She is alit meaner than me.

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I don't know what your concept of hell is, or Gehenna, or whatever. So I can't prove that whatever is in your mind exists in the Bible.

But Paul wrote in 2 Thess. 1
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jesus
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

There are others, but I'm curious what meets the standard of "crystal clear" if not these passages?

Paul said destruction, not eternal torment. And the word aionosis(excuse the spelling) has usually been translated as related to an age. Not eternity.