Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

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So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

So I tackled the verse which is probably the most difficult to debate as a Christian universalist.

Anyone willing to tackle the more Universalist verses I posted?

My observation is that those who believe in eternal, conscious hell sure do not seem to let it bother them like it does me.

How do you believe in that doctrine and sleep knowing you could potentially save a relative or stranger from hell? How can you work and not spend every waking hour keeping people from the worst thing that could happen to them?

And what if you tell them and they do not believe like in the example posted above? Would it be better if you had not told them at all as far as their eternal destiny?

How do you bring a child in the world with the thought they could be eternally tortured which would be much worse than ever being born?

How can a pastor preach about everyone going to hell and then go eat a nice lunch, watch a NFL game, and take a nap?

Either ECT believers are Calvinists and believe they have no affect on who is being saved, or they ignore what they are reading. And hearing. I almost went crazy trying to figure this out. Tried to become an atheist or agnostic which did not work at relieving my anxiety. Could not sleep or find peace. And no pastor could help me. Christian ECT friends would re affirm their belief in ECT hell and do nothing. Walking around and living with people they believed were going to an eternal concentration camp and doing nothing, I did not get it.

Finally found a website called Tentmaker.org, a Christian universalist site. Started reading and have never looked back. Now I am at peace about 90% of the time due to my ability to trust Jesus and rest in Him. And I never realized there were so many other people who had struggled like me with this. Countless stories of suicide attempts(thanks Jonathan Edwards), hospitalizations for depression/anxiety, social withdrawal, etc. based upon being raised in a "hellfire and brimstone" church and theology.

So maybe it is just me. All I know is that since I have thought like this, I have shared my faith more, prayed with patients more, completely changed my mindset. I simply could not tolerate the idea of an ECT hell. And it really bothered me that others were able to have an ECT belief and yet not let the fate of others bother them constantly. And get to the point where I was. In fact, some seemed to almost enjoy the fact that they were "saved" and others were not.

So that is my story. And hopefully none of y'all will go through what I did. Fortunately, I have(and still do) have a loving and very strong in her faith wife who got me through that horrible time of my life.

And edited to add, when I went through this, I started to read the Bible all the time. And I discovered that there were a lot more Universalist verses than I thought. I also read and re read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. And actually all the sermons in the NT. Except for the latter part of the Sermon on the Mount(and I think that Jesus was talking about the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD)there is no "turn and burn". There is no altar call. There is no sinner's prayer. In fact, evangelism for the last 200 years in the US is nothing like the NT evangelism. It is almost like America created their own version of an evangelical system based on how many people you can "save". And "once saved, always saved". And revivals. And tent meetings. And altar calls. And the sinner prayer. And what would happen if you die tonight? And I can find none of that in the Bible.

But I sure found drinking and dancing in the Bible. And from my reading the only folks Jesus seemed to get mad at were religious leaders. Especially judgemental ones.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

---

So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

---

And you could go even further and ask if the Gospel was presented in the exact right way. With the exact right theology.

And from my Biblical reading, nobody committed suicide after one of Jesus's, Paul's, or Peter's sermons. But they did after Jonathan Edwards. And none of the Christians in the NT killed other Christians whom they deemed as heretics.

Something went horribly wrong.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

---

So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

---

That's not what I said. I said that those who never heard The Word will get a pass. I mean people who live where there is no one to witness to them. There are plenty of people even in this world today let alone hundreds or thousands of years ago who never heard The Word.

I'm not talking about the person who lives in any city in this country who simply refuses to pick up a bible or enter a church.

For the sake of this discussion, I'd include people who were being preached some false doctrine by someone torturing them in Nazi Germany.

dermdoc said:

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So I tackled the verse which is probably the most difficult to debate as a Christian universalist.

Anyone willing to tackle the more Universalist verses I posted?

My observation is that those who believe in eternal, conscious hell sure do not seem to let it bother them like it does me.

How do you believe in that doctrine and sleep knowing you could potentially save a relative or stranger from hell? How can you work and not spend every waking hour keeping people from the worst thing that could happen to them?

And what if you tell them and they do not believe like in the example posted above? Would it be better if you had not told them at all as far as their eternal destiny?

How do you bring a child in the world with the thought they could be eternally tortured which would be much worse than ever being born?

How can a pastor preach about everyone going to hell and then go eat a nice lunch, watch a NFL game, and take a nap?

Either ECT believers are Calvinists and believe they have no affect on who is being saved, or they ignore what they are reading. And hearing. I almost went crazy trying to figure this out. Tried to become an atheist or agnostic which did not work at relieving my anxiety. Could not sleep or find peace. And no pastor could help me. Christian ECT friends would re affirm their belief in ECT hell and do nothing. Walking around and living with people they believed were going to an eternal concentration camp and doing nothing, I did not get it.

Finally found a website called Tentmaker.org, a Christian universalist site. Started reading and have never looked back. Now I am at peace about 90% of the time due to my ability to trust Jesus and rest in Him. And I never realized there were so many other people who had struggled like me with this. Countless stories of suicide attempts(thanks Jonathan Edwards), hospitalizations for depression/anxiety, social withdrawal, etc. based upon being raised in a "hellfire and brimstone" church and theology.

So maybe it is just me. All I know is that since I have thought like this, I have shared my faith more, prayed with patients more, completely changed my mindset. I simply could not tolerate the idea of an ECT hell. And it really bothered me that others were able to have an ECT belief and yet not let the fate of others bother them constantly. And get to the point where I was. In fact, some seemed to almost enjoy the fact that they were "saved" and others were not.

So that is my story. And hopefully none of y'all will go through what I did. Fortunately, I have(and still do) have a loving and very strong in her faith wife who got me through that horrible time of my life.

And edited to add, when I went through this, I started to read the Bible all the time. And I discovered that there were a lot more Universalist verses than I thought. I also read and re read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. And actually all the sermons in the NT. Except for the latter part of the Sermon on the Mount(and I think that Jesus was talking about the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD)there is no "turn and burn". There is no altar call. There is no sinner's prayer. In fact, evangelism for the last 200 years in the US is nothing like the NT evangelism. It is almost like America created their own version of an evangelical system based on how many people you can "save". And "once saved, always saved". And revivals. And tent meetings. And altar calls. And the sinner prayer. And what would happen if you die tonight? And I can find none of that in the Bible.

But I sure found drinking and dancing in the Bible. And from my reading the only folks Jesus seemed to get mad at were religious leaders. Especially judgemental ones.

---

My observation is that those who believe in eternal, conscious hell sure do not seem to let it bother them like it does me.

How do you believe in that doctrine and sleep knowing you could potentially save a relative or stranger from hell? How can you work and not spend every waking hour keeping people from the worst thing that could happen to them?

...my job isn't to force someone to accept Christ. It's my job to make sure they've had a CHANCE to accept Christ. Free will. Free will. Free will.

And what if you tell them and they do not believe like in the example posted above? Would it be better if you had not told them at all as far as their eternal destiny?

...I believe that ANY ADULT in a major city in the US (and most major countries) has had a chance to walk into a church, or read a bible. They're everywhere. Therefore, imo, if they choose to not accept Christ, that's their choice. I don't believe that Christ will give them a pass for simply refusing to walk into a church or not bothering to read a bible or watch a service on TV or the internet. If you are part of a lost tribe in the Amazon that's never seen a missionary, then I think you get a pass. If you're a child who has not reached the age of maturity to decide, I think you get a pass.

How do you bring a child in the world with the thought they could be eternally tortured which would be much worse than ever being born?

...I raise up my daughter with the hope that she will live a Godly life and enter the Kingdom with me. I don't know what will happen. I can only do the best that I can. She gets to choose for herself. Secondly, as Seventh Day Adventist, I don't believe in eternal hell fire. I believe that those lost get burnt up. Quick and done with.

How can a pastor preach about everyone going to hell and then go eat a nice lunch, watch a NFL game, and take a nap?

...What's wrong with that? Eating lunch is bad?? Watching football is bad?? Keeping the Sabbath Holy...certainly important but if you consider watching football a sin, good luck with all the rest of the multitude of sins in the world. Once you think it, you've sinned. Babies sin.

None of us will die sinless. All have sinned and fall short.

Romans 14:12 - "As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'" EVERY tongue will acknowledge God. I assume that if you don't acknowledge God, you're not making it to Heaven. EVERY knee will bow. If you don't bow before the Lord, you're not making it to Heaven.

Who knows, maybe when Christ returns, EVERY Single man woman and child Nazi atheist nfl watching preacher will kneel and acknowledge the Lord and everyone will make it to Heaven. I think that'd be wonderful. But I'm not counting on it.

I'll have to tackle the rest of your post later.

dermdoc said:

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Fedup said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

---

So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

---

That's not what I said. I said that those who never heard The Word will get a pass. I mean people who live where there is no one to witness to them. There are plenty of people even in this world today let alone hundreds or thousands of years ago who never heard The Word.

I'm not talking about the person who lives in any city in this country who simply refuses to pick up a bible or enter a church.

For the sake of this discussion, I'd include people who were being preached some false doctrine by someone torturing them in Nazi Germany.

---

So wouldn't it be better if non Christians never heard the Gospel if not hearing it saved them from ETERNAL (like unable for us to understand) torture?

And the Bible says the Gospel is good news for all men. How could hearing it be good news if it condemns you?

---

Why not have people hear the Gospel and choose freely to accept the Lord?? Wouldn't that be better? It's good news because Christ is the only way to the Father. It's good to eat a balanced diet and not smoke or drink too much and yet plenty of people refuse to do it. Maybe it'd be better to never allow those companies to produce those products?

Of course nothing is wrong with preaching and believing in ECT and eating lunch, watching tv, and taking a nap.

My personality is such that I can not do that. My personality is that I want to save everybody. Which is great for my patients but not good for my peace of mind as far as ECT thoughts.

I am not damning anyone for believing in ECT or annilationism as I believe there is Scriptural basis for both. But I believe there is Scriptural basis for Christian Universalism. And I need that for my peace of mind. I do not understand why I am told I am damned for having a different non salvific belief. And it happens.

Fedup said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fedup said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

---

So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

---

That's not what I said. I said that those who never heard The Word will get a pass. I mean people who live where there is no one to witness to them. There are plenty of people even in this world today let alone hundreds or thousands of years ago who never heard The Word.

I'm not talking about the person who lives in any city in this country who simply refuses to pick up a bible or enter a church.

For the sake of this discussion, I'd include people who were being preached some false doctrine by someone torturing them in Nazi Germany.

---

So wouldn't it be better if non Christians never heard the Gospel if not hearing it saved them from ETERNAL (like unable for us to understand) torture?

And the Bible says the Gospel is good news for all men. How could hearing it be good news if it condemns you?

---

Why not have people hear the Gospel and choose freely to accept the Lord?? Wouldn't that be better? It's good news because Christ is the only way to the Father. It's good to eat a balanced diet and not smoke or drink too much and yet plenty of people refuse to do it. Maybe it'd be better to never allow those companies to produce those products?

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Agree. But in your theology, if they do not hear the Gospel there is no chance they can go get burned up, correct? But if you hear it at all then there is a chance you could fry. So how is that good news? You go from no chance of being condemned to a chance of frying,

Quote:

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That's not what I said. I said that those who never heard The Word will get a pass. I mean people who live where there is no one to witness to them. There are plenty of people even in this world today let alone hundreds or thousands of years ago who never heard The Word.

I'm not talking about the person who lives in any city in this country who simply refuses to pick up a bible or enter a church.

For the sake of this discussion, I'd include people who were being preached some false doctrine by someone torturing them in Nazi Germany.

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I'm sorry. I don't understand. Would the Nazi prisoner get a pass? Let's just say it's not a false doctrine but the actual Gospel they were preached by the Nazi torturer.

dermdoc said:

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Fedup said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fedup said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

---

So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

---

That's not what I said. I said that those who never heard The Word will get a pass. I mean people who live where there is no one to witness to them. There are plenty of people even in this world today let alone hundreds or thousands of years ago who never heard The Word.

I'm not talking about the person who lives in any city in this country who simply refuses to pick up a bible or enter a church.

For the sake of this discussion, I'd include people who were being preached some false doctrine by someone torturing them in Nazi Germany.

---

So wouldn't it be better if non Christians never heard the Gospel if not hearing it saved them from ETERNAL (like unable for us to understand) torture?

And the Bible says the Gospel is good news for all men. How could hearing it be good news if it condemns you?

---

Why not have people hear the Gospel and choose freely to accept the Lord?? Wouldn't that be better? It's good news because Christ is the only way to the Father. It's good to eat a balanced diet and not smoke or drink too much and yet plenty of people refuse to do it. Maybe it'd be better to never allow those companies to produce those products?

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Agree. But in your theology, if they do not hear the Gospel there is no chance they can go get burned up, correct? But if you hear it at all then there is a chance you could fry. So how is that good news? You go from no chance of being condemned to a chance of frying,

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No. I don't believe that. I believe that if you've never heard The Word, then when Christ returns he will judge you and decide on your fate. No guarantee still. Christ can see the hearts of us all and he knows who has accepted him and who has not.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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That's not what I said. I said that those who never heard The Word will get a pass. I mean people who live where there is no one to witness to them. There are plenty of people even in this world today let alone hundreds or thousands of years ago who never heard The Word.

I'm not talking about the person who lives in any city in this country who simply refuses to pick up a bible or enter a church.

For the sake of this discussion, I'd include people who were being preached some false doctrine by someone torturing them in Nazi Germany.

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I'm sorry. I don't understand. Would the Nazi prisoner get a pass? Let's just say it's not a false doctrine but the actual Gospel they were preached by the Nazi torturer.

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I guess I'm trying to figure out how the nazi torturer is witnessing to the person he's torturing? You mean like the Crusades....convert or die type witnessing?? I'm not sure that's really true doctrine.

It's still just a thought experiment. But let's flesh it out. Say the torturer is following orders and knows that his life or his family's life is forfeit if he doesn't go along. However, he wants the Jewish prisoner to accept Jesus and gain eternal life. So he ministers the true gospel. Or just brainstorm any scenario that makes sense to you.

When the prisoner refuses to accept Jesus is he condemned?

So, fedup, are you saying if someone doesn't put their trust in Jesus as Lord that they are not saved?

Win At Life said:

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So, fedup, are you saying if someone doesn't put their trust in Jesus as Lord that they are not saved?

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Yes, That is what I believe. Outside of the various nazi torturer scenarios or Amazon tribes or persons not old enough to consent or persons born prior to bibles, babies aborted, etc etc.

Thank goodness, Christ will decide for us because there's no way common man can make those decisions as evidenced by this thread.

Obviously, the Lord God has the ultimate say and although I appreciate everyone's opinion and view, I'm done with this thread. It's reached a tangent that I no longer view as productive.

Stay safe. I hope to see you all in Heaven one day. Choose wisely.

Enjoyed the discussion and see you in Heaven. Or sooner.

Quote:

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Yes, That is what I believe. Outside of the various nazi torturer scenarios or Amazon tribes or persons not old enough to consent or persons born prior to bibles, babies aborted, etc etc.

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So there are multiple ways to be saved? One way for those who have exposure or easy access to the Gospel and another way for those who do not? And on top of that, the first group is judged more harshly than the second? If so the Gospel becomes an instrument of condemnation. It would turn ignorant people who receive the grace and mercy of God into knowledgeable people who do not. Sort of like the fall of man from the Garden of Eden played out again.

I'd say the Bible says nothing like that. I'd say that Jesus didn't die for us so that his suffering and resurrection could be used to condemn people who would otherwise receive grace. Quite the opposite.

dermdoc said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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Imo, those who never heard The Word will get a pass from Christ or be judged upon his 2nd coming. Those who heard The Word and chose not to accept it will be lost. This world has always been about free will. Choose wisely.

---

So far you're saying the ignorant man will get a pass and the one who rejected the Gospel will be condemned. Now let's say the prisoner who rejected the Gospel did so because the person preaching it was also torturing him. (Probably didn't happen in Nazi Germany, but certainly happened at other points in history so I think it's still a fair question.). Does that make any difference?

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And you could go even further and ask if the Gospel was presented in the exact right way. With the exact right theology.

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Yes, you could ask so many questions about what constitutes "believing in Jesus".

Do you have to get his name right? Jesus wasn't actually named "Jesus"; that's just an artifact of phonological differences in the chain of translation from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English. The original was most likely a form of "Yehoshua" ("Joshua", or "Yeshua" according to Messianic Judaism). So, will a person burn in Hell forever for not accepting "Yehoshua", or is "Jesus" close enough? What about "Jethro" or "Jithro" or "Jithras" or "Mithras"?

Do you have to believe that the crucifixion occurred in Jerusalem? Is Bethlehem close enough? Nazareth? Athens? Rome? Egypt? China?

Do you have to believe that Jesus's death was from crucifixion? Will a person burn in Hell for mistakenly believing that Jesus was hanged? Stoned? Burned? Beheaded? Do you have to believe he was executed at all? What if you think he died of heart disease or cancer?

Putting it all together, if a person somehow believes that his lord and savior was a man named Jacques who got shot by an SS officer in German-occupied France in 1942, would God ever forgive him for getting so many details wrong? And if not, where exactly was the line crossed?

But more importantly, when someone directly asked Jesus "What must I do to obtain eternal life?" (Mark 10:17), why did he not say anything about his upcoming blood sacrifice?

Raised Lutheran and attended regular. Never heard of "born again" and never ever an alter call at church. I'm not seeing the concept of being born again didn't exist it just never was preached in the 18 years I was involved in the Lutheran Church. As infants are baptism was being sprinkled with water.
It's a two case sample, but two older reformed Jews told me that they absolutely DO NOT believe in heaven, so for them the question of getting into heaven is mute. I have no idea what they thought about hell existing but they would save a loved one "bless his memory" - that's when they added that jews don't believe in heaven. Again just a two case study.

dermdoc said:

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In fact, the only people Jesus condemned were the religious leaders

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Can you expand on this?

dermdoc said:

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I was taught that in Sunday School also but can not find scriptural evidence for that theology. Do you know of a Scripture that specifically says that Jews are not going to Heaven? Paul says they will be saved per the Scripture I gave.

And you worship a God who is going to send your Jewish friend and his wife to eternal punishment worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews?

And that brings up a theological question, who is going to "hell"? The supposedly Christian Nazis(Many were Lutheran so they would have been born again by Protestant standards)? Or the Jews they tortured and killed?

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Go to an Orthodox Christian church and ask questions. If not you are going to wade through all of the world views from the reformation onward. Just saving you time.

dermdoc said:

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So I tackled the verse which is probably the most difficult to debate as a Christian universalist.

Anyone willing to tackle the more Universalist verses I posted?

My observation is that those who believe in eternal, conscious hell sure do not seem to let it bother them like it does me.

How do you believe in that doctrine and sleep knowing you could potentially save a relative or stranger from hell? How can you work and not spend every waking hour keeping people from the worst thing that could happen to them?

And what if you tell them and they do not believe like in the example posted above? Would it be better if you had not told them at all as far as their eternal destiny?

How do you bring a child in the world with the thought they could be eternally tortured which would be much worse than ever being born?

How can a pastor preach about everyone going to hell and then go eat a nice lunch, watch a NFL game, and take a nap?

Either ECT believers are Calvinists and believe they have no affect on who is being saved, or they ignore what they are reading. And hearing. I almost went crazy trying to figure this out. Tried to become an atheist or agnostic which did not work at relieving my anxiety. Could not sleep or find peace. And no pastor could help me. Christian ECT friends would re affirm their belief in ECT hell and do nothing. Walking around and living with people they believed were going to an eternal concentration camp and doing nothing, I did not get it.

Finally found a website called Tentmaker.org, a Christian universalist site. Started reading and have never looked back. Now I am at peace about 90% of the time due to my ability to trust Jesus and rest in Him. And I never realized there were so many other people who had struggled like me with this. Countless stories of suicide attempts(thanks Jonathan Edwards), hospitalizations for depression/anxiety, social withdrawal, etc. based upon being raised in a "hellfire and brimstone" church and theology.

So maybe it is just me. All I know is that since I have thought like this, I have shared my faith more, prayed with patients more, completely changed my mindset. I simply could not tolerate the idea of an ECT hell. And it really bothered me that others were able to have an ECT belief and yet not let the fate of others bother them constantly. And get to the point where I was. In fact, some seemed to almost enjoy the fact that they were "saved" and others were not.

So that is my story. And hopefully none of y'all will go through what I did. Fortunately, I have(and still do) have a loving and very strong in her faith wife who got me through that horrible time of my life.

And edited to add, when I went through this, I started to read the Bible all the time. And I discovered that there were a lot more Universalist verses than I thought. I also read and re read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. And actually all the sermons in the NT. Except for the latter part of the Sermon on the Mount(and I think that Jesus was talking about the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD)there is no "turn and burn". There is no altar call. There is no sinner's prayer. In fact, evangelism for the last 200 years in the US is nothing like the NT evangelism. It is almost like America created their own version of an evangelical system based on how many people you can "save". And "once saved, always saved". And revivals. And tent meetings. And altar calls. And the sinner prayer. And what would happen if you die tonight? And I can find none of that in the Bible.

But I sure found drinking and dancing in the Bible. And from my reading the only folks Jesus seemed to get mad at were religious leaders. Especially judgemental ones.

---

Do you know when the universalist doctrine began? Honest question that because it's definitely not there during the early church. I would be careful with that mindset. I do know that the worry of not being saved was popular during certain parts of the reformation.

The Alexandrian school was considered Universalist by my readings. St. Clement and Origen were early Church fathers who espoused Universal reconciliation. And Christian Universalism has persisted through time with famous champions like George Macdonald. If you google Christian universalists I think you would be surprised at the people who were Christian universalists.

From my reading of the Bible, Jesus did not condemn sinners like the adulteress, tax collectors, woman who anointed his feet, etc. but rather the Pharisees and scribes.

I find very little Biblical evidence for ECT hell and actually the verse discussed, Matthew 25:46, is the one verse that is the crux of the support for that theology. As I mentioned above, there are different translations of the Greek words used for eternal and punishment and I believe in a redemptive punishment rather than a damning punishment. And I have already gone through explanations of the use of the word Gehenna and Tartarus. And of course why the same exact word, Sheol, was translated as "hell" half the time in the OT and grave the other half.

I do not understand why you caution me about this line of thinking. Do you believe one's view of hell, whether ECT, annihilationism, or Christian Universalism, is a salvific issue? I find no Biblical evidence for that and in my reading even ECT proponents agree with me that it is not a salvific issue.

I do agree with you that the Orthodox Church has the most accurate theology. If you read NT Wright, Ehrman, etc. the dominant Western belief about souls going to Heaven or Hell is not Biblical. Jesus, The book of Revelation, Paul, etc. all spoke of a resurrection of the body when Christ returns. And an actual New Jerusalem on Earth. With an actual feast and party. Now what happens between death and Jesus's return is what scholars are unsure of.

And if you are interested in a good reference source, thehellverses.com, is a pretty good place to start. And Tentmaker.org.
It seriously changed my life for the better. As I mentioned, I share my faith so much more, pray with my patients all the time, and enjoy helping people more and am generally much more joyful.
And thanks for the discussion.

dermdoc said:

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The Alexandrian school was considered Universalist by my readings. St. Clement and Origen were early Church fathers who espoused Universal reconciliation. And Christian Universalism has persisted through time with famous champions like George Macdonald. If you google Christian universalists I think you would be surprised at the people who were Christian universalists.

From my reading of the Bible, Jesus did not condemn sinners like the adulteress, tax collectors, woman who anointed his feet, etc. but rather the Pharisees and scribes.

I find very little Biblical evidence for ECT hell and actually the verse discussed, Matthew 25:46, is the one verse that is the crux of the support for that theology. As I mentioned above, there are different translations of the Greek words used for eternal and punishment and I believe in a redemptive punishment rather than a damning punishment. And I have already gone through explanations of the use of the word Gehenna and Tartarus. And of course why the same exact word, Sheol, was translated as "hell" half the time in the OT and grave the other half.

I do not understand why you caution me about this line of thinking. Do you believe one's view of hell, whether ECT, annihilationism, or Christian Universalism, is a salvific issue? I find no Biblical evidence for that and in my reading even ECT proponents agree with me that it is not a salvific issue.

I do agree with you that the Orthodox Church has the most accurate theology. If you read NT Wright, Ehrman, etc. the dominant Western belief about souls going to Heaven or Hell is not Biblical. Jesus, The book of Revelation, Paul, etc. all spoke of a resurrection of the body when Christ returns. And an actual New Jerusalem on Earth. With an actual feast and party. Now what happens between death and Jesus's return is what scholars are unsure of.

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I agree on the resurrection over souls going to heaven. It's just platonic to think we only have souls that are going to heaven. The Orthodox Church certainly believes in hell but what it is exactly is unknown besides a separation. It sounds like those who are in hell will not participate in the resurrection. It's better not to judge who goes to hell but we are called to repent throughout our life. I'll admit in my heart I would hope that eventually every human can unite fully with God.

Acts 24:15
Having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

And if there is a hell, nobody is there yet because Judgement Day has not occurred. The dead are still in the grave. A lot of hell doctrine is based on Augustine who was a student of Plato and heavily influenced by the Platonic concept of the eternal soul. And if you believe that then the soul would have to go somewhere when we die. So the modern Western concepts of Heaven and hell as immediate destinations after death came about. Rather than the actual Biblical concept of bodily resurrection and New Jerusalem on earth.

And from my understanding, the Orthodox Church believes that we are all in the presence of God when we are resurrected. And it will be glorious for the righteous and torture for the unjust.

dermdoc said:

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Acts 24:15
Having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

And if there is a hell, nobody is there yet because Judgement Day has not occurred. The dead are still in the grave. A lot of hell doctrine is based on Augustine who was a student of Plato and heavily influenced by the Platonic concept of the eternal soul. And if you believe that then the soul would have to go somewhere when we die. So the modern Western concepts of Heaven and hell as immediate destinations after death came about. Rather than the actual Biblical concept of bodily resurrection and New Jerusalem on earth.

And from my understanding, the Orthodox Church believes that we are all in the presence of God when we are resurrected. And it will be glorious for the righteous and torture for the unjust.

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I can accept that. I know hell doesn't have to be a destination but the worst thing I could imagine would be feeling torture in the presence of God who is Love. All thoughts and experiences you had go out the door at that point. There's no more rest or starting over. As CS Lewis said " There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened."