Charles Darwin quote

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Thaddeus73
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And I agree...

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."

-- Charles Darwin, Chapter 6, "The Origin of Species"
Repeat the Line
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Atheists should be a hell of a lot more worried by liberal insanities like climate change regulations than Christians attributing life to ordered and intelligent design. I love it when they act like they're providing new revelation. Most Christians I know are better educated and scientific savvy than evolutionary atheists, this forum included.

Will atheists go on a public tirade against Greta Thunberg? No, it's a hell of a lot easier to target docile Christians.
Quad Dog
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Darwin didn't have everything figured out when he wrote that. We've learned a lot since then. You should also at least finish his quote:
Quote:

...if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.


You're claiming that the human eye was designed by an intelligent being to be upside down, backwards, have a blind spot, not be great in low light compared to other mammals, and not be great at distances compared to other mammals?

The basic stages of eyes appear in the building block forms of simpler creatures. It's clear that simpler creatures have simpler eyes, and more complex creatures have more complex eyes that lead from one to the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
Major Stages of the eye:

Frok
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Complex or simple it still seems designed to me and not random. I know I will get characterized as simple-minded for that but whatever.

dermdoc
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Frok said:

Complex or simple it still seems designed to me and not random. I know I will get characterized as simple-minded for that but whatever.




I will gladly join that club.
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dermdoc
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And it is fascinating that 76% of American doctors believe in God. Maybe the difference is we are scientists who deal with real people.
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Zobel
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Those are some pretty darn big steps. Especially the one between e and f. I think the last one should be g, and the one next to f should say "???"

And I think it's interesting to think about the ancillary systems. Sure, we can talk about how an eye itself might evolve, but an eye by itself is not strictly universally useful. Less so for an advanced eye. So you also need a way to first generate the image (the eye) but also the supporting features - the muscular and skeletal supports as well as specialized vascular and nervous structures. And on top of all that you need a brain with the ability to leverage the tool you've grown.

I agree with Darwin's quote. It's hard to imagine, even if we can say that we think it may be scientifically plausible. But, I find the jump from binary addition and subtraction to an operating system or a video game hard to grasp as well.
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Aggrad08
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The irreducible complexity of the eye argument has long been abandoned by even most YECs. In darwins day they didn't understand, I haven't seen this argument in a long time though, so it's nice for a flashback.
Zobel
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I'm not arguing for irreducible complexity. I'm also not on your list - I'm like, c - I'm too ignorant to have a valid opinion.
diehard03
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Quote:

The irreducible complexity of the eye argument has long been abandoned by even most YECs.

How? Doesn't the lack of time force them into this argument?
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Quad Dog
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k2aggie07 said:

Those are some pretty darn big steps. Especially the one between e and f. I think the last one should be g, and the one next to f should say "???"

And I think it's interesting to think about the ancillary systems. Sure, we can talk about how an eye itself might evolve, but an eye by itself is not strictly universally useful. Less so for an advanced eye. So you also need a way to first generate the image (the eye) but also the supporting features - the muscular and skeletal supports as well as specialized vascular and nervous structures. And on top of all that you need a brain with the ability to leverage the tool you've grown.

I agree with Darwin's quote. It's hard to imagine, even if we can say that we think it may be scientifically plausible. But, I find the jump from binary addition and subtraction to an operating system or a video game hard to grasp as well.
The wikipeida article lays out the various forms of an eye pretty well. The most basic version would be a clump of photosensitive cells that can tell the difference between day and night. Then evolving into a pit with photosensitive cells along the wall that can discern the direction of the sun. Brains aren't always required. The article lists a jellyfish with elaborate eyes, but no brain.

Do you agree with Darwin's quote Thaddeus73 cut in half to make his point, or the full quote that is more responsible?

Imagining binary addition evolution to an OS isn't a terrible analogy for biological evolution. Basic evolutionary steps multiplied by millions of years and billions of generations isn't far off from basic binary addition across billions of bits and operations in a modern processor.
Zobel
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Quote:

Do you have an opinion on whether the MMR vaccine lowers your chances of infection upon exposure to measles? Do you know the difference between CD4+ and CD8+ t-cells? I bet the answers are yes and no respectively.

The consensus of experts is evidence that the argument for that theory is compelling. You don't have to contribute to that pile of evidence to acknowledge it.

The world requires actions based on imperfect knowledge of the system. In situations you don't know much about, you should steal your opinions from those who know more even if there's a chance they're wrong.
There needs to be a difference between an assent to borrowed knowledge and a personal conviction based on experience. I don't know whether we call one belief and the other opinion, and I wasn't really trying to be precise when I said opinion - but I was speaking more about a personal conviction. It's not a posit that any of my worldview beliefs are based on one way or another.

I'm happy to accept without objection that biologist and genetic experts say this is how it happened. I have no personal conviction about it.

The action of a vaccine seems reasonably plausible without a detailed understanding, and I assume further details only increase the conviction of the reasonableness of the belief.

On the other hand, the evolution of the eye seems quite counterintuitive to me at first pass. As a layman this makes it very interesting, and my brain immediately wants to ferret out all the apparent difficulties and problems associated with it. That doesn't mean I don't believe it, that means my brain sees an apparent contradiction and is trying to reconcile it. But in the absence of a satisfactory reconciliation, I simply default to a position of ignorance.

So, in the hierarchy of my beliefs I suppose I would place my belief in the efficacy of the MMR vaccine as higher than my belief that the current model of how the eye evolved is correct. I think the former is quite a bit easier to believe in, and it seems fairly straightforward to gather some personal affirming experience with.
Zobel
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Quote:

The wikipeida article lays out the various forms of an eye pretty well. The most basic version would be a clump of photosensitive cells that can tell the difference between day and night. Then evolving into a pit with photosensitive cells along the wall that can discern the direction of the sun. Brains aren't always required. The article lists a jellyfish with elaborate eyes, but no brain.

Do you agree with Darwin's quote Thaddeus73 cut in half to make his point, or the full quote that is more responsible?

Imagining binary addition evolution to an OS isn't a terrible analogy for biological evolution. Basic evolutionary steps multiplied by millions of years and billions of generations isn't far off from basic binary addition across billions of bits and operations in a modern processor.
Yes, I can read wikipedia also. I don't think you understood my objection. It isn't about evolving an eye because a very simple organism with the eye in the bottom right would be significantly disadvantaged vs one with the "eyes" it "needs". It would be expending a great deal of "biological energy" (both in the literal sense as in bloodflow and the figurative sense) to sustain a physiological feature that generates little benefit - which is a net loss, it would be less fit or competitive.

That doesn't mean I object to the model. It means I find the model to be not compelling because it doesn't explain nearly enough of the whole system. It's like telling me how our expertise in aircraft developed over time by focusing on wing shape. While no doubt there is significant progress there, utilization of that requires leaps of technology of the system as a whole, in an integrated way. In order to explain the wing shape of a modern aircraft you also have to understand how the engine came about to make that wing shape useful.

The eye is the same way. There's a lot of other things that have to happen simultaneously in order to move from a to f, and in terms of complexity those aren't remotely equal steps. In a-e you have more or less one change happening. In f you've added an intricate muscular focusing mechanism in the iris, a muscular directional mechanism (with its requisite skeletal and vascular support), a new vitreuos feature, a secondary aqueous feature between the lens and the cornea... never mind the complexity of corneal epithelial cells, or the lubrication system - tears, nasolacrimal ducts, lacrimal glands, and all of the host of reflexes and neural patterns to make all that stuff actually work together. And it seems like that all has to progress simultaneously, which makes the individual steps difficult. You get one mutation at a time, but it seems like that won't work very well... any more than taking a WWI biplane and putting a Merlin engine on it.

The problem with basic binary addition on computers is that random selection sucks. Even with AI which maybe is the closest analogue I can think of (because it's not strictly random given that it has feedback) outcomes are extremely sensitive to how you structure the initial array, feedback conditions, etc. With a "fuzzer" (random input) you can train things, but its not very efficient. And maybe evolution isn't very efficient either.

The biggest objection I have, again as a layman as I'm sure this isn't novel or anything, is that even if you get a beneficial mutation some random chance can preclude that mutation from being passed on. Or it could be precisely the mutation that's required...but the one that you need in two steps, not in this one.
LonghornDub
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Billy Graham, when cautioning #43 about assuming no Moslems would go to heaven, advised him not to limit God. It's not something Graham would have said before he got old, and I think it's really good advice. From there, I don't worry about what methods he uses to create, judge or the rest of it. I just say He's God and I'm not (and I don't want the job) and His ways are higher than my ways. To those who think that's a cop-out, I would say only if it's not true, and if it's not, He wouldn't be enough of a God for me to trust anyway.
God made the country, and man made the town. William Cowper

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Thaddeus73
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and when you combine the complexity of the eye and vision with all of the other complex and interactive bodily systems of mankind, it's a no-brainer that a master intelligence had to have designed it all (Just like all of the systems which interact in an airplane cannot have just happened on their own, but had to have been designed by a master intelligence)...
kurt vonnegut
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Thaddeus73 said:

and when you combine the complexity of the eye and vision with all of the other complex and interactive bodily systems of mankind, it's a no-brainer that a master intelligence had to have designed it all (Just like all of the systems which interact in an airplane cannot have just happened on their own, but had to have been designed by a master intelligence)...


Your solution to the complexity of life is to assign it to the will of a being that is infinitely more complex. These aren't new arguments.
Zobel
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I'm not advocating for ID in this post. I'm saying the chart showing the evolution of the eye is a hopeless oversimplification.
dermdoc
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k2aggie07 said:

I'm not advocating for ID in this post. I'm saying the chart showing the evolution of the eye is a hopeless oversimplification.
Agree. To me, science is the exploration of how God does things. I find it fascinating and instead of being a threat to my faith, it actually strengthens it. But I am no theologian or biologist.
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Aggrad08
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That's because you are willing to accept evolution and an old earth and interpret the Bible in those terms. Some people can't reconcile those and dig their heels In blindly. To be fair, I've never really seen a coherent interpretation of genesis with modern knowledge that wasn't allegorical.
And to be fair to the allegorical interpretation it's far older than the science that debunked the literal views.

St. Augustine has a good quote for Christians accepting scientific knowledge I forget the exact wording at the moment.
Zobel
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Genesis was never meant to be a scientific or historical treatise. I don't even think that allegory is the right way to understand it. It's theology, it's worldview.
Thaddeus73
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Gerhard Schroeder, Jewish scientist, has run the numbers of the expanding universe from the origin of the big bang, discovered by Father LeMaitre. Using that data along with Einstein's theory of Relativity, his numbers show that from where we are now in space, the earth is billions of years old, but at the origin of the big bang, we are only in the 6th day.

I'm no astrophysicist, but I do find those numbers interesting...

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx
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dermdoc
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Aggrad08 said:

That's because you are willing to accept evolution and an old earth and interpret the Bible in those terms. Some people can't reconcile those and dig their heels In blindly. To be fair, I've never really seen a coherent interpretation of genesis with modern knowledge that wasn't allegorical.
And to be fair to the allegorical interpretation it's far older than the science that debunked the literal views.

St. Augustine has a good quote for Christians accepting scientific knowledge I forget the exact wording at the moment.
With all due respect, your side is just as guilty of "digging in their heels" on the subjects of creation and evolution.

From my readings of Augustine, he did not think science invalidated the Scripture or that Scripture invalidated science.
And he warned Christians of being belligerent to the science side and thus hinder the Gospel and their salvation.

I personally think fundamentalists who completely reject Science and insist on their very narrow interpretation of Scripture to be more harmful to the Gospel than godless atheists.


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Zobel
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It's not an objection as much as - it seems unfathomable. That's an admission to my lack of ability to grasp. Just like interstellar distances or the size of the universe or subatomic particles.

It seems like the vast majority of mutations are going to be harmful. Then some nonbeneficial. Then others beneficial. And then again of the beneficial they have to be sufficiently beneficial to increase likelihood of procreation over time, and pass the hurdle of random stupid chance which nature is so brutal about to begin with. It's just a lot of hurdles, especially when you look at systems that seem to require multiple simultaneous changes.
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Zobel
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Yah that makes sense. But to be relevant the mutation has to be persistent and beneficial. Again, it just seems like - for the eye - you need multiple things happening at once. Hard to imagine.
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Aggrad08
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k2aggie07 said:

Genesis was never meant to be a scientific or historical treatise. I don't even think that allegory is the right way to understand it. It's theology, it's worldview.


This is disingenuous. No one accuses the Bible of being written with such an intent. But even a fundamentally theological work can describe real events or it cannot.

Another example is the exodus, the book was Written to a particular audience with a particular theological intent, but does it describe real events or not? Just because something is written with primary theological intent doesn't mean it can't describe history. This is for example how Christians view the gospels.
Aggrad08
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dermdoc said:

Aggrad08 said:

That's because you are willing to accept evolution and an old earth and interpret the Bible in those terms. Some people can't reconcile those and dig their heels In blindly. To be fair, I've never really seen a coherent interpretation of genesis with modern knowledge that wasn't allegorical.
And to be fair to the allegorical interpretation it's far older than the science that debunked the literal views.

St. Augustine has a good quote for Christians accepting scientific knowledge I forget the exact wording at the moment.
With all due respect, your side is just as guilty of "digging in their heels" on the subjects of creation and evolution.

From my readings of Augustine, he did not think science invalidated the Scripture or that Scripture invalidated science.
And he warned Christians of being belligerent to the science side and thus hinder the Gospel and their salvation.

I personally think fundamentalists who completely reject Science and insist on their very narrow interpretation of Scripture to be more harmful to the Gospel than godless atheists.





No more guilty than we are about germ theory, gravity, quantum mechanics or any other very well established science. This one only comes into conflict to to religious objections
Zobel
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How is it disingenuous? I'm not being dishonest or hiding anything.

The author didn't sit down and say, I'm going to explain the timeline and process for how the universe was created. The questions of how and when are almost completely avoided. What you have is a story about God turning something that is wasteland into a garden. It's told in a stylistic way. I genuinely don't believe it makes any sense whatever to look to Genesis for the answers to how did God make everything or when did God make everything. Genesis tells WHY did God make everything. It's a short story of the entire universe and it has a purpose. The purpose is not to be a history or science textbook. It's to say, God made everything for these reasons, and this is where our story begins.

That's *very very* different than the Gospels. They're written thousands of years later, in an entirely different style. They actually mirror professional histories of their age in both tone and methods of writing. They use eyewitness accounts with names. Go read the introduction to Luke. The Gospels and Genesis are two completely different kinds of writings.
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