Actually, I think that goes too far. I don't think we can be responsible for other people's reactions, only for our own actions and intentions. Because even the standard you set here is no guarantee that it won't be taken badly. As we've seen, people have baggage with stuff like this. Most people are pretty sure they're fine and don't need help.

All I personally can do is try to be humble and gentle. St Seraphim of Sarov captured this perfectly:

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You cannot be too gentle, too kind. Shun even to appear harsh in your treatment of each other. Joy, radiant joy, streams from the face of one who gives and kindles joy in the heart of one who receives. All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each other, not even those whom you catch committing an evil deed. We condemn others only because we shun knowing ourselves. When we gaze at our own failings, we see such a morass of filth that nothing in another can equal it. That is why we turn away, and make much of the faults of others. Keep away from the spilling of speech. Instead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace. Keep silent, refrain from judgement.

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But even then! Even that doesn't prevent people from becoming upset. This kind of joy and peace can even provoke. I mean, the whole thing with what derm said is kind of a tiny example, no?

k2aggie07 said:

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That statement should be taken as what it says. If you were going to elaborate on it, it isn't that the response was wrong, but that experience was wrong. The reaction is understandable and reasonable. Threatening children with eternal hellfire is wrong.

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I agree with your sentiment. I think it is interesting how something as simple as, "I will pray for you" can be taken in so many different ways.

For example, I sincerely believe that dermdoc did not intend for the statement to come across as condescending.

I believe he meant it in a well meaning way, however, that brings up a bigger question for me. Why would any believer ever tell a non-believer that they will pray for them without considering how it would come across from the non-believers point of view.

This isn't exclusive to Christianity, that is just the religion that most Americans experience this behavior from a majority of the time.

You can't be responsible for other people's reactions, but you can certainly consider how your words might be taken in certain contexts.

Even more interesting is that what derm said and what you heard are entirely different. He said he was praying, and decided to encourage them not to let that bad experience govern their judgment. People responded to something he didn't say.

That's why the standard of - consider how this person may take it - is impossible. Folks will respond to you, sure - but they're also just as likely to respond to an interaction with a third party from years ago.

If a person is doing good and acting in love, gentleness, and sincere concern, there's nothing else they can do. The other persons response is up them. That's not exclusive to prayer - this is true for ANY offer of help, which can always be rejected out of hurt, pride, whatever.

Aggie4242 said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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That statement should be taken as what it says. If you were going to elaborate on it, it isn't that the response was wrong, but that experience was wrong. The reaction is understandable and reasonable. Threatening children with eternal hellfire is wrong.

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I agree with your sentiment. I think it is interesting how something as simple as, "I will pray for you" can be taken in so many different ways.

For example, I sincerely believe that dermdoc did not intend for the statement to come across as condescending.

I believe he meant it in a well meaning way, however, that brings up a bigger question for me. Why would any believer ever tell a non-believer that they will pray for them without considering how it would come across from the non-believers point of view.

This isn't exclusive to Christianity, that is just the religion that most Americans experience this behavior from a majority of the time.

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First of all, I never said I would pray for someone.

Secondly, I have no idea the motives of other Christians. The ONLY reason that I would offer prayer is as a gesture of concern and love. And I sincerely believe that most Christians feel the same.

And I would never offer prayer to a non believer unless I was specifically asked to.

I also am once again reminded how people reading what I write on the internet may not interpret what I post as what I really meant.

Have a good evening

Aggie4242 said:

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You can't be responsible for other people's reactions, but you can certainly consider how your words might be taken in certain contexts.

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Advice well taken.

third coast.. said:

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Ok since you are all stuck on what derm said and my reply and not the broader over all conversation, when people start talking about my relationship with god or trying to witness or giving advice on spirituality, I find it obnoxious at a minimum, so yes, I may have just stopped paying attention to what he was saying. That being said, the broader point about it being condescending still stands.

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Fair enough. I have been called worse. I wish you only the best.

Ok. Now that you've caught up about derm please go catch up about the rest where it's pretty clear that the behavior is not in and of itself condescending.

There was actually a remarkably self aware scene in an otherwise forgettable movie recently - long shot with Charlize Theron. Character finds out friend is Christian, has moment where he realizes his attitudes toward that were pretty bigoted. Even previous post "yeah I wasn't talking about you I just zoned out and projected on it but let me tell you how little I care about this conversation I joined and posted a bunch on" Could do with a dose of this.

third coast.. said:

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You can believe what you want but I am not going to also believe what you want just because you think its what I should believe. Hth.

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Not asking that. It's a discussion forum. Discussion usually means rationalizing your beliefs and expressing them, while listening to others do the same, hopefully for mutual benefit. Or don't. You do you man. Hth

third coast.. said:

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It's very clear that my beliefs are seriously affecting you. I hope that you are able to make it through these tough times.

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Can you keep posting so you can prove how little you care?

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From the outset I have said that I feel it is because of what a person has to believe to say that to someones face. My mind is not going to change, so no, it is not clear.

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You don't think that it is more than a little presumptuous to say you know what they have to believe in order to say something to you?

This is a perfect illustration of what I was talking about. This is why it's impossible for a person to blanket accept responsibility for another person's reaction. Regardless of actual intent, and regardless of what that person is actually saying or not saying you have made up your mind. You demonstrated this with how you responded on this thread.

Maybe we can find some middle ground. If someone condemns you, they are being condescending, rude, and presumptuous. We could even say that is not Christlike. But if someone prays for you or offers to pray for you, this could represent a wide range of intent and desire from them...everything from self-serving pharisaical hypocrisy to genuine love and concern. You think that's a fair statement?

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You are unable to accept that I think Christians are condescending when unsolicited, they say they will be praying for you. Specifically in regards to your relationship with their god. So I guess I will amend my statement, I am bothered by how annoying you are and how you refuse to accept that other people dont want, care about, or need unsolicited prayer about a relationship with god or jesus.

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I'm happy to accept that that is, in fact, your opinion. I'm happy for you to have that opinion. I'm also quite happy to say that I believe that as an opinion, it is demonstrably wrong.

I'm sorry that you find someone engaging with you in a respectful discussion is annoying. I actually haven't been discussing whether other people want, care about, or need unsolicited prayer, only whether or not the offering of that prayer is inherently condescending. Would you like to talk about that next?

For what its worth I'm also keenly aware that the most likely reason you assume it is fundamentally condescending is because you've never seen it any other way. This reflects much more on us as Christians than it does you, and it really is a shame.

Good luck bud. I tried.

If you believe that you are saying that no one should ever offer anyone any unsolicited advice or help under any circumstances. You do see that right?

Or for that matter make any kind of moral call or any kind of relative value assignment to any action. ALL of those presume a position or ability to make a value judgment.

third coast.. said:

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you dont see the difference between unsolicited advice on the mundane and trying to change someones entire belief system to save their soul for all eternity because you think yours is better than theirs?

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Yes - it is a difference of degree, not of kind.

Even the mundane assumes a kind of superiority of vantage point or knowledge or perception. You have to believe they are either ignorant of the information or don't agree with it. Otherwise why say anything?

Religious beliefs are not some kind of special category of information. If the unsolicited statement is condescending for religion, it must be condescending for anything else. And if no intent or motive can excuse the condescension, we better always err on the side of silence. No?

Tbh I feel like people thinking about your finances and then telling you what they think you should do is extremely condescending and quite rude. You want to buy whatever stock you want that's fine, but to tell me that you believe what I'm doing financially is wrong and that my finances and my families finances are ruined is extremely inappropriate and rude

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not going to engage any further because this has been a colossal waste of my time, in a period when i am wasting a ton of it.

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Seriously though I don't think I've been condescending. Just having a discussion. If it came off that way I am truly sorry and I'll try to do better.

Pray for me, I need them more than you. Or if that's not your jam, send me good vibes or kind thoughts. I need those too.

This discussion reminds me of this story from Penn Jillette about a stranger giving him a Bible.


It is fascinating to me that people can take something as innocent as praying as an affront to them.
One of my best friends in the world is an atheist.. he is also one of the people who encourages me in my faith.. actually encourages me to go to church and to pray more than anyone else I know. He also has told me he appreciates the fact that I pray for him, because he knows that it is the best tool I have in my toolbag to help him most the time.. he knows that I believe that it is the most helpful thing that I can do for him. Knowing that people out there care about you and love you is a good thing.


As for the idea of it being condescending... why bother holding beliefs and opinions if you aren't certain in their veracity? If I weren't certain of Christianity.. I wouldn't be one.. there are easier ways to live your life. I rarely state that I am praying for someone to "find Jesus" or something like that.. but usually that I am praying for them to have peace and comfort. They know where I stand that their beliefs are wrong if they are different than mine... once again.. why have them if you don't actually think you are right? And if I'm right, atheists can't be. I wouldn't get offended by muslims doing the same thing for me.



I'm assuming these comments about praying for someone are strictly limited to praying for someone to find faith right? Nobody is mildly annoyed/offended/slightly peeved/whatever, by someone telling a person that they are praying for them when they have a loved one who is ill or a stressful situation are they? If I am incapable of physically helping someone, this is the most I can do.. even if you believe it is ineffective from a practical standpoint.. why would someone be offended by someone who is making a concentrated effort to care about you and express love and support for you?

nsfw language

"I'm racist, you're a republican, I don't know wtf is going on"

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It is fascinating to me that people can take something as innocent as praying as an affront to them.

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It's not the prayer. It's the refusal to accept their beliefs as part of their humanity. It can be considered "dehumanizing", in a way.

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One of my best friends in the world is an atheist.. he is also one of the people who encourages me in my faith.. actually encourages me to go to church and to pray more than anyone else I know. He also has told me he appreciates the fact that I pray for him, because he knows that it is the best tool I have in my toolbag to help him most the time.. he knows that I believe that it is the most helpful thing that I can do for him. Knowing that people out there care about you and love you is a good thing.

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You should allow him the grace that he probably has conversations with other people much like several of the atheist posters on this thread....and has chosen a different path with you.

That's also ok, and the sign of being a good friend. Or, he wants you (/s)

I just want to point out the impressive amount of different tangents in this thread from the OP. Good job everybody.

Wow, this thread certainly blew up since I was last on it.

This certainly is a paradox I struggled with as a believer. On one side, if you genuinely believe in Christianity and the bible and you have no doubt that Jesus is real and that humans need to be saved. Why wouldn't you wish for someone that was not a believer to be saved and to find God? Why wouldn't you share that wish with them if you truly believe they are under threat of dying and suffering eternal misery?

But on the other hand, especially in western culture where we cherish the freedom of religion, you should have the tact to respect others' beliefs and not to question them on it, just like you wouldn't want them questioning yours and telling you how you are doomed if you don't believe how they do.

I think, for the most part, most of the religious people in the US have detached their regular mind from their spiritual thinking mind and somehow know that we all are just going by our own silly made up beliefs so who are we to judge anyone else.