Beer Baron said:

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Not trying to berate him, just trying to understand how he correlates his past actions with his current words. Just looking for an explanation as to why he believes grace matters more than actions.

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As an atheist, I don't believe in the whole "grace" thing at all, but his actions as far as I can tell have been in sharp contrast to the person who you quoted from ten years ago. I can recall a couple years ago being incredibly surprised (in a good way) by several of his posts, because I too was looking at him through the lens of the Politics Board persona I remembered from the same incident you posted.

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Since he had the most high profile example of the folks posting on this thread it seemed like a fair question to ask.

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I just think given his current tone and behavior, there are other people around here who are much more deserving of this question at this time.

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That's why I asked him about his beliefs. He does believe in grace. Also, I am not questioning if he is or is not a good person. I am simply asking why he believes what he does.

As far as other examples, feel free to point me in those directions and I will be happy to ask them the same questions.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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oh man, I know I've been accused of holier than thou behavior but there is a whole lot of judginess in those ten posts, Sir Not A Sock.

Posters like that are the ones who make the Christmas exchange a harder sell.

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I am not trying to cancel anybody and I don't have an axe to grind either. I am simply wondering why he believes he has been forgiven and what he did to earn that forgiveness, from his perspective. I am happy to ask the same questions of other posters too. I am not here to judge anybody, nor do I plan on doing so.

As far as being a sock, I used to post a lot when Greatheart was around (before he was notafraid). I also used to have conversations with notafraid, Mrs. Lovelight, NoACDamnit and I thoroughly enjoyed butting heads with Picadillo and crag.

Some of those are probably before your time, but I can assure you they posted here.

I took a break from posting for awhile because I had other things going on. I have more time now and I enjoy discussing why people believe what they belive/

PacifistAg said:

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As to how long ago you took those actions and said those words, why does that matter?

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Because people change. 10 years ago, I was GigEm01. I was quite possibly the angriest person on Forum 16. I was filled with anger and contempt for others. I was violent. Then I met Christ. Then I started taking the red letters seriously. That's a night and day difference compared to who I am today.

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I remember you, but I don't think you were as bad as you thought you were (at least on TA).

Also, I do not doubt that people change. In fact, good for anybody that changes in a way that they believe makes them better.

That raises another question for me, though. For a religious person, and Dermdoc did reference this so I would be happy to hear from him as well, why do you (royal, not individual) think you have been forgiven for your previous actions? How far does that forgiveness go? Which sins are forgiveable and which aren't?

Edit- out of posts, so back to this method of communication

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I can not earn forgiveness. I am granted forgiveness through God's grace and my resultant faith. It is a free gift from God through the cross. The Gospel means good news. We are all offered this free gift and it is a wonderful thing. It does not mean we will not sin again but we will attempt with the help of the Holy Spirit which is indwelled in us to have changed minds and hearts and to try to not sin. And I do not only believe but know I have been forgiven. Maybe not by people but by God.

Just curious, are you a Christian or ever been exposed to the Gospel?

And edited to add that it was not a change in beliefs. I was already a Christian. I just sinned.

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I want to make sure I am summarizing your post correctly (if i am not, please correct me).

You believe you are granted forgiveness because of your belief, and continued belief, in God/God's grace.

Since you were a Christian when you took those actions 10 years ago, you were immediately forgiven because of your belief. So what is the difference between acting like you did and acting like you are now? Since you believed in God then and now, you already had forgiveness for whatever actions you took?

Do you believe the only requirement for God's forgiveness is believing in that God?

As to your other question, yes, I have been exposed to the gospel in a variety of ways. I have also been exposed to Islam (Shia and Sunni) and to a less extent Judaism and Hinduism.

No, I am not a Christian.

K2,

I am not sure if I am getting you mixed up with another poster, but I believe you have an in-depth knowledge of philosophy, right? If so, reading your (if it was you) posts on this board made me want to learn more about Philosophy and led me to a podcast called "Philosophize this", so thank you for that.

As to your comment, I do not doubt that the belief that God's foregivess goes as far as it needs to. What I am trying to understand is, is the belief in forgiveness the only thing needed to actually earn God's foregiveness (from a Christian perspective...That is the perspective all my comments are coming from, just wanted to say that so I wouldn't have to keep typing it after every statement).


Edit 2- Pacifist

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Oh, I was that bad. Heck, every now and then, they mention me over there and you can see just how toxic I was by the comments about someone a decade after the fact.

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I understand what you are saying. You are comparing yourself to the general population. I was comparing you to individuals that posted on the politics board at the same time as you. Again, if i am remembering correctly. It was a long time ago.

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Forgiven by God? Because I trust His promises. Forgiven by men/women I may have wronged? I have no way of knowing if I've been forgiven by them. If they refuse to forgive, that will really be their decision. All I can do is apologize, try to remedy if possible, and continue to grow to look more like Christ. As for how far God's forgiveness goes...well, given that Christ prayed for the forgiveness of those murdering God Incarnate, I'd say it goes pretty far. It goes farther than we can imagine.

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Appreciate the answer. So, do you (and this is directed at anybody who believes the same/wishes to answer) believe that somebody can sin for a lifetime, ask for God's forgiveness on their deathbed, and be granted it?

If so, what purpose does hell serve (assuming you believe it exists inside the Christian belief)? It not, at what point in an individuals corporeal life is it required to ask for forgiveness in order to avoid hell?


NEW EDIT

Derm,

No, not a theist.

Ramblin,

I won't say my old username as some folks know my personal info. I guess you could say texags knew me as 28317

Aggie4242 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Aggie4242 said:

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dermdoc said:

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That was ten years ago. I repented and was forgiven. I have been changed. Praise God!

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Not a sock, just haven't posted in a long time.

I guess my point is, it is incredibly easy to forget about past actions and brush over them like they never happened.

As to how long ago you took those actions and said those words, why does that matter? Aren't you judged on your entire life, not just the parts you believe are moral?

Edit- hit my post limit for the day.

Two questions for you.

1.) you just posted on the politics board 4 days ago and seem to be a regular contributor. Why would you say otherwise?

2.) How did you repent and what did you do to earn forgiveness for your words and actions?

Edit 2 for Beer Baron

Not trying to berate him, just trying to understand how he correlates his past actions with his current words. Just looking for an explanation as to why he believes grace matters more than actions.

Since he had the most high profile example of the folks posting on this thread it seemed like a fair question to ask.

Edit 3- Dermdoc

My opinions on your actions are irrelevant.

As to being judged on your current actions, versus prior actions, where is the line drawn? What sins are forgivable and which aren't?

For example, let's say a gay man lived as a gay man his entire life, then, a week before he dies he decides to become Christian and repents his past actions.

Do you believe he will go to Heaven because he believes he has received gods grace? If not, why not?

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Scripture says there is only one unforgivable sin and that is to sin against the Holy Spirit. And there is much debate over what that means. I personally think it means going against the conviction of the Holy Spirit willfully or in other words rejecting God.

I have no idea on anyone's eternal destination. Only God does.

I do know that God is just, merciful, and loving. He loved us so much He allowed us to unjustly murder His Son. And even in the agony of crucifixion, He asked for forgiveness for his murderers. While we were yet sinners, He died for us.

So I am fully confident in His judgement.

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You mentioned previously that you believe you had been forgiven. What made you believe that? Was it actions you took after that incident? Was it a change in your beliefs?

Again, I am not attacking you. I am genuinely curious why you believe you were forgiven and what you did to earn that forgiveness.

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I can not earn forgiveness. I am granted forgiveness through God's grace and my resultant faith. It is a free gift from God through the cross. The Gospel means good news. We are all offered this free gift and it is a wonderful thing. It does not mean we will not sin again but we will attempt with the help of the Holy Spirit which is indwelled in us to have changed minds and hearts and to try to not sin. And I do not only believe but know I have been forgiven. Maybe not by people but by God.

Just curious, are you a Christian or ever been exposed to the Gospel?

And edited to add that it was not a change in beliefs. I was already a Christian. I just sinned.

Forgiveness goes as far as it needs and then some. All of the sin and evil and pain of humanity is like a fistful of sand in the ocean of God's love and mercy.

k2aggie07 said:

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Forgiveness goes as far as it needs and then some. All of the sin and evil and pain of humanity is like a fistful of sand in the ocean of God's love and mercy.

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I really like that. Thanks brother.

Can't claim it - it's St Isaac the Syrian.

k2aggie07 said:

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Can't claim it - it's St Isaac the Syrian.

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So something good did come out of Syria. Seriously, thanks. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing but must be coupled with repentance or change.

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I remember you, but I don't think you were as bad as you thought you were (at least on TA).

Also, I do not doubt that people change. In fact, good for anybody that changes in a way that they believe makes them better.

That raises another question for me, though. For a religious person, and Dermdoc did reference this so I would be happy to hear from him as well, why do you (royal, not individual) think you have been forgiven for your previous actions? How far does that forgiveness go? Which sins are forgiveable and which aren't?

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Oh, I was that bad. Heck, every now and then, they mention me over there and you can see just how toxic I was by the comments about someone a decade after the fact.

Forgiven by God? Because I trust His promises. Forgiven by men/women I may have wronged? I have no way of knowing if I've been forgiven by them. If they refuse to forgive, that will really be their decision. All I can do is apologize, try to remedy if possible, and continue to grow to look more like Christ. As for how far God's forgiveness goes...well, given that Christ prayed for the forgiveness of those murdering God Incarnate, I'd say it goes pretty far. It goes farther than we can imagine.

PacifistAg said:

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I remember you, but I don't think you were as bad as you thought you were (at least on TA).

Also, I do not doubt that people change. In fact, good for anybody that changes in a way that they believe makes them better.

That raises another question for me, though. For a religious person, and Dermdoc did reference this so I would be happy to hear from him as well, why do you (royal, not individual) think you have been forgiven for your previous actions? How far does that forgiveness go? Which sins are forgiveable and which aren't?

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Oh, I was that bad. Heck, every now and then, they mention me over there and you can see just how toxic I was by the comments about someone a decade after the fact.

Forgiven by God? Because I trust His promises. Forgiven by men/women I may have wronged? I have no way of knowing if I've been forgiven by them. If they refuse to forgive, that will really be their decision. All I can do is apologize, try to remedy if possible, and continue to grow to look more like Christ. As for how far God's forgiveness goes...well, given that Christ prayed for the forgiveness of those murdering God Incarnate, I'd say it goes pretty far. It goes farther than we can imagine.

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Amen. And this forgiveness is freely available to anyone.

May I ask if you believe in God? Are you a theist?

Aggie4242 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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oh man, I know I've been accused of holier than thou behavior but there is a whole lot of judginess in those ten posts, Sir Not A Sock.

Posters like that are the ones who make the Christmas exchange a harder sell.

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I am not trying to cancel anybody and I don't have an axe to grind either. I am simply wondering why he believes he has been forgiven and what he did to earn that forgiveness, from his perspective. I am happy to ask the same questions of other posters too. I am not here to judge anybody, nor do I plan on doing so.

As far as being a sock, I used to post a lot when Greatheart was around (before he was notafraid). I also used to have conversations with notafraid, Mrs. Lovelight, NoACDamnit and I thoroughly enjoyed butting heads with Picadillo and crag.

Some of those are probably before your time, but I can assure you they posted here.

I took a break from posting for awhile because I had other things going on. I have more time now and I enjoy discussing why people believe what they belive/

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You'd be surprised how long people hang around here. I was the newest user on a recent thread and I've been hanging out here 15 years. What was your handle?

kurt vonnegut said:

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AggieRain said:

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Most atheists I have encountered have been on this board. I've come to respect most of them. Good people I'd drink a beer with.

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I'd rather drink scotch.

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Scotch is the nectar of the Gods. Therefore, you must immediately surrender all of your scotch to me.

Most of my atheist friends/colleagues are largely indifferent towards Christianity. Way more have a negative opinion of Islam than Christianity TBH.

Thanks. It all started when we just visited a church because it was across the street from our new house. Had been forever since we had gone to church, but we knew our parents would hound us about it so we wanted to be able to say we did. Walked in and love for the first time ever in a church. That lit a fire and we haven't been the same ever since. Got serious about the red letters and here we are.

AstroAg17 said:

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What were your beliefs during that time?

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With regards to faith and when I posted as GigEm01? If you asked, I would have said I was a Christian. At best, I was a "cultural Christian". Didn't follow Christ though. I knew enough to twist scripture in order to justify my hate and violence, while draping it in enough Christianese to still claim I was a Christian.

PacifistAg said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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What were your beliefs during that time?

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With regards to faith and when I posted as GigEm01? If you asked, I would have said I was a Christian. At best, I was a "cultural Christian". Didn't follow Christ though. I knew enough to twist scripture in order to justify my hate and violence, while draping it in enough Christianese to still claim I was a Christian.

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Proud of you brother.

Thanks man. I'm just so much more at peace than I used to be. Experiencing His love has given me the room to address/treat some things, which has largely eliminated my chronic depression. Christ is awesome indeed.

PacifistAg said:

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Thanks man. I'm just so much more at peace than I used to be. Experiencing His love has given me the room to address/treat some things, which has largely eliminated my chronic depression. Christ is awesome indeed.

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Same here. When I finally really met Christ and realized the depths of His love for me, it changed me and how I treat other people. And the peace is worth more than all the money in the world.

And I emailed you a devotion along these lines that I think you will like.

Reading this thread to this point has raised my spirits.

I am reminded of the atheistic dislexic who didn't believe there was a Dog.

All A&M said:

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Most atheists I know are tolerant. The ones openly critical of christianity are usually ex-fundamentists. It's their way or the highway.

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...yet they can't stay away from Christians....scared of being alone I suspose.

Beer Baron said:

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We literally can't. You people are everywhere.

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Tangential as it is you literally can. Portland, Seattle, and many other large cities are post-christian.

Alright. Have a good one!

Beer Baron said:

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Fireman said:

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I'm always curious how someone who is agnostic differentiates themselves from being an atheist? I see it as a binary question, you either believe there is a God/Creator or you don't.

Does agnostic mean you don't know whether there is a God or not? And if that's your definition that the question is unknown, would you then say there is a 50% chance there is a God and 50% chance there is not?

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I think the mistake you're making is thinking of agnostic and atheist as being two different beliefs along a spectrum. One term refers to a person's level of knowledge about something (agnostic/gnostic), the other refers to their beliefs (atheist/theist). You can be any of four different combinations of those terms:

• Agnostic Atheist - I don't believe in a god (belief), but I can't be certain whether one exists (knowledge). I'd wager that the vast majority of people who just get the blanket "atheist" label would actually fit here. I haven't ever met one who would claim to know that there isn't a god or gods out there. "Atheist" is just a convenient shorthand.
• Gnostic Atheist - I don't believe in a god, and I'm certain no gods exist.

• Agnostic Theist - I believe in a god, but I can't be certain whether it exists.
• Gnostic Theist - I believe in a god, and I'm certain it exists.

"Agnostic" isn't just a noncommittal, watered-down version of "atheist," though it's often used that way even by people claiming that label for themselves. There's a stigma attached to "atheist" that "agnostic" doesn't get as much. What they likely mean when they say they're agnostic is that they lean toward being an agnostic atheist.

To answer your second question, within the gnostic/agnostic scale I'd say different people with atheist belieufs would have different levels of certainty/uncertainty. Same would go for believers, though I think within religious circles there are often social stigmas and pressures that would lead people toward claiming the gnostic, more certain label regardless of any doubts they may have. At least that was my experience growing up.

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There's something here that I disagree with, but I just cannot put my finger on it.

The agnostic atheist seems to leave it open ended as to the existence of a God and this is kind of a deal breaker. It's kinda self-contradictory. How is it that in one light you don't believe in God, but in another light you leave it open as to whether a true God does in fact exist? ( You have some iota of a capacity for faith) ( When I first read through this, I thought, "Hmm! Agnostic Atheists are close to God." The same goes for Agnostic Theist; If one believes in a God, how can one say at the same time they don't have knowledge it exists? Where is your belief in this God coming from?)

Where exactly does "faith" come in/ fit in here? For Christians, faith is being sure of things hoped for, and certain of what we do not see (Hebrews 11). It's like this verse doesn't fit at all. Christians know very well we don't get all the things we hope for.

Christians new to the faith don't necessarily know the Holy Spirit (who he is and what he is about), but that doesn't make them any less christian.

By definition I was an agnostic atheist at some point when I was too young to have a concept of who God was. That goes for everybody.

I have a bad feeling when time comes at it's end, no one will be able to make an excuse that they have no knowledge of God. A lot of people just don't want to know Him. Some don't want to believe in Him. For some it will be both (don't want to believe nor know Him) It's a choice.

This is more speculation because I think people fit on a spectrum of these four definitions. Every person would fall into one definition for different reasons.
I can go back and forth, but most of the time I'd say I'm a agnostic atheist. The universe is a big enough place with enough variety for a being to exist that would be a god compared to us. Similar to how we are gods compared to ants. Notice I said "a god" and not " the god." Because if the universe allows a god to exist, then I don't think it is in the form presented by Christianity.

An agnostic theist could be someone that uses Pascal's Wager or their culture/upbringing to justify their belief.

Christ is of the spirit, not of this life. The flesh dies but the spirit lives on.

.....we all die in the end some sooner than others.

Average life span is 78 yrs old.

All the money in world can not save ur from dying because life is n the blood.
Fragile rock we live on, one minor hiccup and millions die.
I have hope as all Christians do.


Read Psalms 90:10
Nothing has changed.

Pagan dualism.