I don't take being compared to a great saint and doctor of the faith as an insult, Ironically he is a saint I often ask to pray for me. I have tried not to convey any personal judgements only to state what I would see as dangerous errors. I like everyone am a sinner, I am repentant because I almost met the Lord earlier this year and I wasn't in a state of grace. The Lord took mercy on me and gave me the opportunity to correct my errors. Through much suffering and mostly his grace I have been able to die to self and allow Christ to live in me. Had things taken a different turn I would have been roasting right now. In the end there is death, judgement, heaven or hell.

I do not wish any ill will to you as we are brothers in Christ. It is out of charity that I would even broach this subject. I do wish peace upon you. As we pray daily the Fatima prayer at the end of each decade of our rosary. Oh my Jesus, forgive our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls into heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy. Amen.

No what I meant was is that Augustine was tolerant of the universalists.

Thank you for the prayers and thoughts my brother in Christ!

According to Augustine on universalism
It is quite in vain, then, that some-indeed very many-yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be, Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture-but yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up His mercy". This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.

And other famous universalists besides Origen and St. Gregory
Clement of Alexandria
St. Hippolytus of Rome
Pope St. Dionysius of Alexandria
Eusebius of Caesarea
St. Athanasius of Alexandria
Evagrius Ponticus
St. Isaac of Nineveh
John Scotus Eriugena

k2aggie07 said:

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That describes my godfather to a T. When people say others will be in hell, he just shakes his head and says "you don't know that." Like St Silouan said - "love could not bear that."

I do think we need to be careful with the title of "universalist" though. Those saints have pretty nuanced teaching and are not simply saying "all are saved hooray!"

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Agree. What most of them taught was a purification process by God meant for rehabilitation rather than a punitive process.

Some near death experiences report hell, or at least some very very unpleasant place a person might find themselves after death.

Is it eternal? I lean towards the destruction theory, that eventually some souls will be destroyed.

I know one account of a resuscitated person saying "It's hell" with fear on their face immediately before they passed away.

I also have two family members who have had near death experiences. My uncle had an out of body experience and went someplace where he was met by his deceased wife who told him he had to go back to raise the kids. My mother in-law was visited by an angel in the hospital.

After some thought, I wonder what the bible would look like had Satan not rebelled.

How would our world look differently had it existed in the time period before Satan's fall?

Sounds like purgatory to me.

jrico2727 said:

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Sounds like purgatory to me.

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Exactly

Well we can agree that purgatory is real. I do believe that it is one of God's great mercies. I know you feel that I am Augustinian in my beliefs, but I perfer to think of my self as Thomist in this regard. Here is a good short explanation from a great Aggie Catholic.

The fathers do speaking sometimes about a kind of purgation but there is a big difference between that and the complex model of satisfaction, temporal consequences, dual-consequence of sin, debt and transfer and cancellation and purchase, material hellfire, etc taught in the doctrine of purgatory by the Latin church.

Did that difference happen after the schism?

The development of purgatory and satisfaction, treasury of merits, and all? Yes, but began around the 1000s.

bmks270 said:

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Some near death experiences report hell, or at least some very very unpleasant place a person might find themselves after death.

Is it eternal? I lean towards the destruction theory, that eventually some souls will be destroyed.

I know one account of a resuscitated person saying "It's hell" with fear on their face immediately before they passed away.

I also have two family members who have had near death experiences. My uncle had an out of body experience and went someplace where he was met by his deceased wife who told him he had to go back to raise the kids. My mother in-law was visited by an angel in the hospital.

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The only place in scripture that I can find support for eternal torment is reserved for Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. They are thrown into the lake of fire and tormented forever Rev 20:10.

Note that not everyone thrown into the lake of fire is described as receiving eternal torment. Some people whose name will not be in the Book of Life, Hades and Death are all headed there as well. But in these descriptions, ECT is less certain. There are mentions that this is the second death, which would be an argument for destruction. And the death of Death doesn't sound like ECT to me, nor does the death of Hades. Actually don't ask me what the death of Death or death of Hades means, it makes my head hurt.

Finally, as temporal beings, I'm not sure we understand forever. It;s not clear that forever is an unending serving of time. If the universe is destroyed, and the universe is made up of spacetime, what does time look like without space? The whole subject is just too confusing to get to concerned about.

I will reiterate: hell is not a punishment, it is a destination. Don't go there.

bmks270 said:

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Some near death experiences report hell, or at least some very very unpleasant place a person might find themselves after death.

Is it eternal? I lean towards the destruction theory, that eventually some souls will be destroyed.

I know one account of a resuscitated person saying "It's hell" with fear on their face immediately before they passed away.

I also have two family members who have had near death experiences. My uncle had an out of body experience and went someplace where he was met by his deceased wife who told him he had to go back to raise the kids. My mother in-law was visited by an angel in the hospital.

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Dreams and hallucinations.

I don't see God or Satan doing previews.

Waltonloads08 said:

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bmks270 said:

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Some near death experiences report hell, or at least some very very unpleasant place a person might find themselves after death.

Is it eternal? I lean towards the destruction theory, that eventually some souls will be destroyed.

I know one account of a resuscitated person saying "It's hell" with fear on their face immediately before they passed away.

I also have two family members who have had near death experiences. My uncle had an out of body experience and went someplace where he was met by his deceased wife who told him he had to go back to raise the kids. My mother in-law was visited by an angel in the hospital.

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Dreams and hallucinations.

I don't see God or Satan doing previews.

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Ones that only happen when people are flatlined dead?

BusterAg said:

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bmks270 said:

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Some near death experiences report hell, or at least some very very unpleasant place a person might find themselves after death.

Is it eternal? I lean towards the destruction theory, that eventually some souls will be destroyed.

I know one account of a resuscitated person saying "It's hell" with fear on their face immediately before they passed away.

I also have two family members who have had near death experiences. My uncle had an out of body experience and went someplace where he was met by his deceased wife who told him he had to go back to raise the kids. My mother in-law was visited by an angel in the hospital.

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The only place in scripture that I can find support for eternal torment is reserved for Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. They are thrown into the lake of fire and tormented forever Rev 20:10.

Note that not everyone thrown into the lake of fire is described as receiving eternal torment. Some people whose name will not be in the Book of Life, Hades and Death are all headed there as well. But in these descriptions, ECT is less certain. There are mentions that this is the second death, which would be an argument for destruction. And the death of Death doesn't sound like ECT to me, nor does the death of Hades. Actually don't ask me what the death of Death or death of Hades means, it makes my head hurt.

Finally, as temporal beings, I'm not sure we understand forever. It;s not clear that forever is an unending serving of time. If the universe is destroyed, and the universe is made up of spacetime, what does time look like without space? The whole subject is just too confusing to get to concerned about.

I will reiterate: hell is not a punishment, it is a destination. Don't go there.

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Yep, God is outside of time, before and after only exists relative to the arrangement of matter. God merely exists. "I AM"

bmks270 said:

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Waltonloads08 said:

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bmks270 said:

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Some near death experiences report hell, or at least some very very unpleasant place a person might find themselves after death.

Is it eternal? I lean towards the destruction theory, that eventually some souls will be destroyed.

I know one account of a resuscitated person saying "It's hell" with fear on their face immediately before they passed away.

I also have two family members who have had near death experiences. My uncle had an out of body experience and went someplace where he was met by his deceased wife who told him he had to go back to raise the kids. My mother in-law was visited by an angel in the hospital.

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Dreams and hallucinations.

I don't see God or Satan doing previews.

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Ones that only happen when people are flatlined dead?

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I don't buy the whole "I was dead for XX minutes because my heart stopped".

That isn't dead.

The only Biblical support I know of is when Paul went to the third heaven after he was beaten almost to death. I am very skeptical as a doc who has revived numerous folks with CPR, etc. and have never had one of these stories related to me or my fellow medical workers. And why are they so relatively common today over say fifty years ago?

dermdoc said:

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The only Biblical support I know of is when Paul went to the third heaven after he was beaten almost to death. I am very skeptical as a doc who has revived numerous folks with CPR, etc. and have never had one of these stories related to me or my fellow medical workers. And why are they so relatively common today over say fifty years ago?

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I don't want to substantiate the claims but I think it's worth mentioning that the people to whom Jesus went and those that birthed the scriptures would think nothing like you, a post enlightenment individual. They lived with demon possession in a time when God spoke to them through angels, dreams, and prophets. You discount such things because you think in a manner that arose in the last 400 years. I don't want to call reason your God but it's a close second as a tool for understanding reality.

In fact, spiritual warfare, healings, and dreams are still widely reported in the third world by Christians and viewed as credible. It's a stark difference to the states that should be remembered when we revere skepticism as healthy despite believing in a miraculous god and spiritual reality beyond assessment.

I guess but why would not any of the folks we resuscitated say any of this thirty years ago?

The brain does weird things. Last night I dreamed I was training camp of the MLB St. Louis Cardinals trying to make the roster as a pitcher.

dermdoc said:

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I guess but why would not any of the folks we resuscitated say any of this thirty years ago?

The brain does weird things. Last night I dreamed I was training camp of the MLB St. Louis Cardinals trying to make the roster as a pitcher.

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Like I said, reason is a close second.

AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The only Biblical support I know of is when Paul went to the third heaven after he was beaten almost to death. I am very skeptical as a doc who has revived numerous folks with CPR, etc. and have never had one of these stories related to me or my fellow medical workers. And why are they so relatively common today over say fifty years ago?

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I don't want to substantiate the claims but I think it's worth mentioning that the people to whom Jesus went and those that birthed the scriptures would think nothing like you, a post enlightenment individual. They lived with demon possession in a time when God spoke to them through angels, dreams, and prophets. You discount such things because you think in a manner that arose in the last 400 years. I don't want to call reason your God but it's a close second as a tool for understanding reality.

In fact, spiritual warfare, healings, and dreams are still widely reported in the third world by Christians and viewed as credible. It's a stark difference to the states that should be remembered when we revere skepticism as healthy despite believing in a miraculous god and spiritual reality beyond assessment.

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Hey, I get it and agree. I believe in miracles. And the folks in third world countries are far more credible to me because they are not making money off of movies and books.

one MEEN Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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The only Biblical support I know of is when Paul went to the third heaven after he was beaten almost to death. I am very skeptical as a doc who has revived numerous folks with CPR, etc. and have never had one of these stories related to me or my fellow medical workers. And why are they so relatively common today over say fifty years ago?

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No offense dermdoc, but if you're regularly seeing flatlining patients in the field of dermatology, I'm going somewhere else for RetinA micro.

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You have to do a year internship in internal medicine, peds, or surgery prior to three years of derm. Like an idiot, instead of a laid back program I was a Baylor Ben Taub/St. Luke's intern. At St. Luke's there were two interns on call every night so we were on every third night. 22 floors divided in half and the interns ran all the code blues. And Ben Taub was Ben Taub. Probably averaged about three codes a week or more. And we did save some.

And that was nothing compared to what our brave soldiers do every day. I wonder as there have to be numerous incidents in battle, that to my knowledge there are no NDEs from soldiers in a war.

dermdoc said:

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And what mystifies me is that "hell" is a minuscule part of the New Testament. And never existed in the OT. "Hell" has driven more people away from the beauty of the Gospel than anything else.

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Yet it IS in the NT. The threat of eternal torture, even if mentioned only once, is a huge deal. It has been the central theological struggle of my adult life.

Buck Turgidson said:

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dermdoc said:

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And what mystifies me is that "hell" is a minuscule part of the New Testament. And never existed in the OT. "Hell" has driven more people away from the beauty of the Gospel than anything else.

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Yet it IS in the NT. The threat of eternal torture, even if mentioned only once, is a huge deal. It has been the central theological struggle of my adult life.

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I do not believe an eternal torment Hell exists in the New Testament. But even if there is, from my reading(and I am OCD so have read a ton) there is no Scripture that says that my view on Hell has anything to do with my walk with the Lord.

And your last statement is what troubles me so much.

dermdoc said:

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Buck Turgidson said:

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dermdoc said:

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And what mystifies me is that "hell" is a minuscule part of the New Testament. And never existed in the OT. "Hell" has driven more people away from the beauty of the Gospel than anything else.

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Yet it IS in the NT. The threat of eternal torture, even if mentioned only once, is a huge deal. It has been the central theological struggle of my adult life.

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I do not believe an eternal torment Hell exists in the New Testament. But even if there is, from my reading(and I am OCD so have read a ton) there is no Scripture that says that my view on Hell has anything to do with my walk with the Lord.

And your last statement is what troubles me so much.

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It's hard to love the Lord with all your heart if you believe he's threatening you with eternal torture. I've had to reconcile this by seeing that the Lord doesn't SEND you to hell, you CHOOSE the path to hell and reject the path to heaven out of your own free will,

Actually there is a doc who has put together the best collection I have read.

Dr. Jeffrey Long
God and the afterlife,The groundbreaking new evidence for God and Near Death Experience

You might want to do some research on how the concept of eternal conscious torment Hell came about. It is very interesting especially since there were several schools of thought.

BusterAg said:

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Nice post OP. Maybe could be a good fiction book? Satan is just a being that has empathy for the ultimate destination for human beings? Um. Ok. I guess. Satan? Empathy?


Hell is not a punishment. It is a destination. Don't go that way.

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Easy for someone who believes to say. How about those that tried their entire lives to believe, but don't? They burn in Hell because they don't pretend?

dermdoc said:

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You might want to do some research on how the concept of eternal conscious torment Hell came about. It is very interesting especially since there were several schools of thought.

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Do you have any resources in this. I've been on a recent dive into my understanding of God and biblical teachings. I have an open loop regarding the garden of eden and eternal life, and evil.

Genesis says man was cast out of the garden, after having knowledge of good and evil, so that we could not eat of the tree of life. Eternal life was then no longer within our grasp. Jesus however teaches that some will receive eternal life.