Is it Problematic that Satan/Lucifer Rebelled from God given his Status?

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Reed10
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AG
According to Christian beliefs:

Lucifer/Satan, the Morningstar, endowed by his creator (God) with the highest beauty, wisdom, position in all of heaven, with the highest access to God out of all of the angels decided to rebel. In addition, we are led to infer from the Bible that he also convinced 1/3 of the Angels to rebel with him against God as well (debatable but I digress).

The common narrative is that Satan wanted the glory for himself and God threw him out as fast as lightning given his prideful rebellion.

I think it's overly simple to think that Lucifer's rebellion was simply rooted in that he wanted to receive glory over God and so he sought out that "freedom" to pursue his own glory and "own way".

I think it's more along the lines that Lucifer's problem Was/is with Gods plan with creation. The fact that God would create billions of humans and The overwhelming majority of them would burn in hell for eternity vs the few that would be "chosen" to be in heaven for eternity with him. Seems like a problematic overall picture. The pinnacle of creation (humans) created and the vast majority end up suffering for all of eternity because of their choice not to believe in Jesus. Like overkill or something. Most humans have average lifespans over the course of history of 40 years and whatever you do in that amount of time determines an eternity of punishment OR glory in heaven. The problem is lessened/worsened if you're a Calvinist and you think humans have no choice in their destination.

Obviously God can do what he wants and owes no one, including Satan, nothing but maybe he saw this plan and saw it as objectable and thought that created beings should have the freedom to do as they pleased? Not saying he was morally superior, just disagreed, to the point that it was worth rebelling in the face of pure annihilation (because Satan and the demons certainly do not think they can beat God).

Not to empathize with Satan or anything because, he's satan, but just trying to get to a more logical baseline to the first rebellion.
PacifistAg
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According to which Christian beliefs? There are many long-held views of what constitutes "hell". Eternal conscious torment is just one of those views.
dermdoc
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I do not believe in eternal consious torment in hell. And a thorough Scriptural review is what brought me to that conclusion. Preachers are like doctors, they are products of the seminaries they trained at.
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dermdoc
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And what mystifies me is that "hell" is a minuscule part of the New Testament. And never existed in the OT. "Hell" has driven more people away from the beauty of the Gospel than anything else.
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AggieRain
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dermdoc said:

And what mystifies me is that "hell" is a minuscule part of the New Testament. And never existed in the OT. "Hell" has driven more people away from the beauty of the Gospel than anything else.
dermdoc
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Read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill which is my favorite part of the New Testament. Where did he threaten anyone with "hell"? And yet that has become the biggest theme in modern Christianity. Do we know something Pail did not?
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jrico2727
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Jesus clearly warns us of hell several times. Hell is a real place and a eternal sentence for those who merit it. I haven't personally counted but have heard several times he mentions hell more than heaven. He has a deep concern that we will end up there if we don't live a virtuous life. It is dangerous to believe that hell isn't real. Do you want to be a sheep or a goat at the final judgement? Please go read Matthew 25.
TresPuertas
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There is an issue that I have always pondered and it somewhat speaks to the issue the OP brought up.

God is provided with all Glory and credit for all the good things in this world and takes none of the responsibility for the bad things. My human brain Always has perceived this as a bit unfair, but that's not at all how it works. God is the creator of all things and the pinnacle of goodness but without ego. He cares not for credit and neither should we. All goodness is born of God and so its natural that all goodness is attributed to Him. Envy is a completely human trait and something that makes no difference to Him.

Satans displeasure with this is, In it's essence, anti-God and probably the reason he was expelled from Heaven.

It's kind of convoluted and hard for me to express on a forum but hopefully I kind of got my point across
PA24
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TresPuertas said:

There is an issue that I have always pondered and it somewhat speaks to the issue the OP brought up.

God is provided with all Glory and credit for all the good things in this world and takes none of the responsibility for the bad things. My human brain Always has perceived this as a bit unfair, but that's not at all how it works. God is the creator of all things and the pinnacle of goodness but without ego. He cares not for credit and neither should we. All goodness is born of God and so its natural that all goodness is attributed to Him. Envy is a completely human trait and something that makes no difference to Him.

Satans displeasure with this is, In it's essence, anti-God and probably the reason he was expelled from Heaven.


It's kind of convoluted and hard for me to express on a forum but hopefully I kind of got my point across
Satan is pure evil.
dermdoc
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jrico2727 said:

Jesus clearly warns us of hell several times. Hell is a real place and a eternal sentence for those who merit it. I haven't personally counted but have heard several times he mentions hell more than heaven. He has a deep concern that we will end up there if we don't live a virtuous life. It is dangerous to believe that hell isn't real. Do you want to be a sheep or a goat at the final judgement? Please go read Matthew 25.
I have read it a lot of times and researched it in depth. Hell is an invented word. Jesus used the word Gehenna, which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.

But I am sure I will not convince you so we will agree to disagree. It has always fascinated me that somehow people think if you do not believe in an ECT hell then you are going there. Can we at least agree that a believer's concept of hell has nothing to do with his salvation?

And actually, I do believe in a hell similar to what CS Lewis described in the Great Divorce.
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PacifistAg
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dermdoc said:

It has always fascinated me that somehow people think if you do not believe in an ECT hell then you are going there.

This! It makes no sense. Hold the view that you want, but don't assume someone's relationship with God based on it. Many are going to be distraught to find themselves standing with universalists, annihilationists, etc in the presence of our Savior.
BusterAg
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Nice post OP. Maybe could be a good fiction book? Satan is just a being that has empathy for the ultimate destination for human beings? Um. Ok. I guess. Satan? Empathy?


Hell is not a punishment. It is a destination. Don't go that way.
jrico2727
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I am not trying to judge you personally or condemn you to Gehenna for your beliefs. I truly believe that we are judged as we judge and forgiven as we forgive, as our Lord taught us, so I try not use a scale I wouldn't want to be put on. Regardless, of what you want to call it God came to earth and advised that there is an eternal place of damnation, fire, torment, whaling, gnashing of teeth that was prepared for the devil, his angles and evil doers. He will be the one who judges who goes there, because he paid the price for salvation so he will decide who earns salvation. Gehenna is a metaphor for that place, because it was a real location that the Jews would have been familiar with its foulness and would have understood the message that was being told, either way I wouldn't want to be a part of it. I think there is a danger in trying to think there is no eternal chastisement. If there is no hell, is there really sin? If there is no sin is there really virtue? It is a slippery slope, one that too many people are falling down
I commend your faith and truly believe it to be authentic from what I have seen you write here. I just don't think we should not be presumptuous of ours or anyone else's destination. "Many will say to me on that day "Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers".
swimmerbabe11
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The existence of Satan and demons is probably the thing that keeps me from being totally on board with the Eastern Orthodox idea of hell. Satan wants you with him..and he is a real being, so why wouldn't hell be a real place.

I do not know much about their demonology though.
dermdoc
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I am presumptuous about my fate. I know I am a born again Child of God destined to spend eternity with the Lord in the New Jerusalem. And I pray that you can have that confidence also because without it, you will miss out on a lot of peace, joy, and I believe the ability to reach the full potential God meant for you to reach.

I can find no Scripture that says a belief in an ECT hell concept is necessary for salvation.

You might want to read Raising Hell by Julie Ferwerda. And I am not trying to make you question your faith if an ECT concept is necessary for you to have that faith. Most preachers teach ECT because they were taught that in seminary. And they fear loss of control, power, and even faith of their congregations if they can not scare the hell into them(pun intended).

I will repeat that I am always astonished at Christians when you say that you do not believe in an ECT concept of hell that they think you are not saved. And with all due respect, look at your post. You bring up judging me(in a very nice way) for my concept of Hell. Yet there have always been different concepts of hell and no one thought if you did not believe in a certain concept that you were not saved. And most all ECT folks read CS Lewis and yet will not acknowledge that he did not have an ECT hell concept.

And it all started with Augustine, who by the way, believed unbaptized babies went to hell.
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dermdoc
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And if one believes the Gospel is only about not going to hell, I believe they are missing out on a lot.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.
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dermdoc
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swimmerbabe11 said:

The existence of Satan and demons is probably the thing that keeps me from being totally on board with the Eastern Orthodox idea of hell. Satan wants you with him..and he is a real being, so why wouldn't hell be a real place.

I do not know much about their demonology though.
Satan will be destroyed in the lake of fire. God wins.
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americathegreat1492
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I hope I'm not on dangerous ground with this reply.

I don't think the idea of hell as a rejection of God's love is based solely on a rationalist reading of scripture. Rather, it is informed from both scripture and what the monastic fathers encountered in their direct experience with God. Experience is not the sole criterion, but it is a heavily emphasized part of Orthodoxy. You see it in the description of one who may be called a theologian. Theologian is not a thinker alone, but those who

"have been examined and are past masters in theoria and who have previously been purified in soul and body, or at the very least are being purified."
Serotonin
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swimmerbabe11 said:

The existence of Satan and demons is probably the thing that keeps me from being totally on board with the Eastern Orthodox idea of hell. Satan wants you with him..and he is a real being, so why wouldn't hell be a real place.

I do not know much about their demonology though.

I don't think there is a dogmatic view of hell, but k2 can correct me there. There are plenty of Orthodox Christians who believe in a concept of hell close to the typical western view.
jrico2727
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There are a lot of theologians that believe Satan rebelled because of the incarnation of Jesus. That the Lord would become a human, which would be a lower form of creation than that of an angel which is a truly spiritual being. Satan refusing to serve lost, started a rebellion taking 1/3 of the angels with him. Saying he could be like God. Michael, which in Hebrew mean who is like God, yelled who is like God and cast Satan from heaven. I love the story of St. Michael the Archangel he is a Catholic super hero.

Zobel
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Basically I think the only "dogmatics" on this is that there is a Resurrection, there is a Judgment, there is a new creation, and humans will receive their justice "from the face of God."

In the negative sense, Orthdoxy has rejected material hellfire and purgatory (you can read St Mark of Ephesus' on this during the failed union council of Ferrara-Florence in the 1400s).
ramblin_ag02
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The idea that Satan rebelled, because he thought hell is unjust is a new one to me. It's interesting, but it doesn't then make any sense that Satan would try to tempt humans to turn away from God and suffer eternally.

There is very little scripture to go on, and as you'd expect there is a lot of speculation. I tend to lean more toward the Jewish view that Satan is just an angel doing a job. His job is to tempt us to turn away from God. At the end of time there will be no more point in his existence
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swimmerbabe11
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Yikes. Like God purposefully created Lucifer to tempt us? That's an awful thought.

I dont like that one bit.


I'm fairly certain the OP is the premise of the show Lucifer though.

I dont like eschatology very though. I know there is bad and good in the afterlife and I have the promise of the good and a roadmap for that. I will find out the rest when it gets here. Speculation leads to error leads to heresy leads to apostasy leads to the place we are trying to avoid. Plus, Revelations gives me a headache.

You would think I would like it more cause of the supernatural and the horses and dragons and stuff, but I just... dont.
dermdoc
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Can anyone explain to me why the same word "Sheol" was translated as hell half the time in the OT and grave(the right translation)the other half? I think there was an agenda.
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dermdoc
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Yikes. Like God purposefully created Lucifer to tempt us? That's an awful thought.

I dont like that one bit.


I'm fairly certain the OP is the premise of the show Lucifer though.

I dont like eschatology very though. I know there is bad and good in the afterlife and I have the promise of the good and a roadmap for that. I will find out the rest when it gets here. Speculation leads to error leads to heresy leads to apostasy leads to the place we are trying to avoid. Plus, Revelations gives me a headache.

You would think I would like it more cause of the supernatural and the horses and dragons and stuff, but I just... dont.
It is very hard to go through and even after all my studies, I am still not sure what the exact setup is. All I know is that if hell in whatever form does exist I and my family are not going there.
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jrico2727
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I do have a heart full of joy and love for the Lord. I frequently go to confession and receive our Lord in the blessed sacrament . So I have peace, joy and life in me abundantly.

I wasn't trying to place any judgement on you individually but I think you are wrong about the existence of a place I hope nobody goes to. Honestly, my church doesn't preach hell often so I its not a method of control for my beliefs. However our Lord seemed to think it was important that we know of the possibility of going there, and scripture tells us that the state of our soul at death determines our final salvation. "He who endures to the end will be saved". Matthew 24:13.

It is an interesting theological question if belief in hell is necessary for salvation. However since I believe that trusting the direct teaching of Jesus is, it is a moot point in my opinion. Everything I have tried use to make my point has come from the Gospels and should be in red letters for you. I don't ask that anyone believes what I say but believe his word.
diehard03
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Quote:

I have read it a lot of times and researched it in depth. Hell is an invented word. Jesus used the word Gehenna, which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.

And actually, I do believe in a hell similar to what CS Lewis described in the Great Divorce.

I think you're making a distinction without a difference, if we believe what we believe about being in the presence of God or not.

Not really a hill I'd die on.
dermdoc
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Fair enough.
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ramblin_ag02
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Yikes. Like God purposefully created Lucifer to tempt us? That's an awful thought.

I dont like that one bit.


I'm fairly certain the OP is the premise of the show Lucifer though.

I dont like eschatology very though. I know there is bad and good in the afterlife and I have the promise of the good and a roadmap for that. I will find out the rest when it gets here. Speculation leads to error leads to heresy leads to apostasy leads to the place we are trying to avoid. Plus, Revelations gives me a headache.

You would think I would like it more cause of the supernatural and the horses and dragons and stuff, but I just... dont.
That's the idea. After all, to really have free will you need alternatives. It's better if the alternatives are attractive in their own ways. No one chooses Natural Light over Sierra Nevada Pale Ale in a straight up choice. Satan is the one that makes the alternative to God attractive. Like making Natural Light cheaper than water in the above example. It means more to choose God instead of something else if that something else is desirable, valuable or enjoyable.

With you on Revelation though. It makes for good reading, bad theology, and worst fiction
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dermdoc
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jrico2727 said:

I do have a heart full of joy and love for the Lord. I frequently go to confession and receive our Lord in the blessed sacrament . So I have peace, joy and life in me abundantly.

I wasn't trying to place any judgement on you individually but I think you are wrong about the existence of a place I hope nobody goes to. Honestly, my church doesn't preach hell often so I its not a method of control for my beliefs. However our Lord seemed to think it was important that we know of the possibility of going there, and scripture tells us that the state of our soul at death determines our final salvation. "He who endures to the end will be saved". Matthew 24:13.

It is an interesting theological question if belief in hell is necessary for salvation. However since I believe that trusting the direct teaching of Jesus is, it is a moot point in my opinion. Everything I have tried use to make my point has come from the Gospels and should be in red letters for you. I don't ask that anyone believes what I say but believe his word.


Man you are even tougher than St. Augustine concerning hell views and salvation. And Origen, St. Gregory and others were not called heretics because of universalist beliefs.
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PabloSerna
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Aquinas, Augustine, among others have written on the fall of Satan. My understanding is that when God revealed to them his plan of salvation and their role in it - Lucifer (the highest, most light filled angel created) rebelled against "serving" man. Not to mentioned Mary's place in all of this, as others have written (you bring up Revelation).

It is interesting that followers of Aleister Crowley (1875-1947), have as their motto, "Do what thou wilt" as the sum of their Law. In his Hymn to Lucifer, Crowley writes, "the key of joy is disobedience." I think it was Lucifer's pride that caused him to want to be God. However, as the Archangel "Michael", whose name in Hebrew means, "Who is like God?" - a rhetorical question - Michael led the charge against Lucifer and the others, casting them out of heaven.

For Catholics, we understand Sheol to be purgatory, a place where we go to clean up before entering into heaven.

+Pablo
PabloSerna
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ramblin_ag02 said:


With you on Revelation though. It makes for good reading, bad theology, and worst fiction

Doing a 6 week class on Revelation. Very interesting. First thing I learned was what the word "apocalypse" means - "the unveiling."

Just started.

PabloSerna
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jrico2727 said:

There are a lot of theologians that believe Satan rebelled because of the incarnation of Jesus. That the Lord would become a human, which would be a lower form of creation than that of an angel which is a truly spiritual being. Satan refusing to serve lost, started a rebellion taking 1/3 of the angels with him. Saying he could be like God. Michael, which in Hebrew mean who is like God, yelled who is like God and cast Satan from heaven. I love the story of St. Michael the Archangel he is a Catholic super hero.


I choose St. Michael as my patron saint when I made my confirmation as a 12 year old kid. I have, on more than one occasion, felt his presence. Would encourage all to get to know your Guardian Angel. A little story for ya...

So, a few years back.. maybe way back. I was reading that Padre Pio, a Catholic Mystic from the 1950's, regularly prayed to his Angel for help combating demonic powers during his life. He encouraged others to get to know their "celestial spirit" given to us by God for our protection. It was around Christmas, and I decided to ask my Guardian Angel for "its" name so that I can begin to invoke them to help me pray to our Lord more fervently. I did not hear any name or voice, so after awhile I had forgotten about it. We still hang stockings at our home, and on Christmas Day, I reached in to get my presents, usually small stuff, a few gift cards and such - and I found a small hand written note with the name "Ricky" on it. I asked the family, who put this here? No one seemed to know and I immediately remembered that my simple, heartfelt request had been answered!

I do pray often to our Lord and I always begin with a prayer to my Guardian Angel, "Ricky" to help me prepare my heart and mind. I also ask for many simple tasks, like remind me to do such and such and to wake up. I feel grateful that I have come to know Ricky. Hope you can come to know your Guardian Angel as well.

+Pablo

88Warrior
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Whatever we believe hell is or isn't won't keep us out of heaven..the only thing we got to believe is that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him...That God so loved the world that he sent his Son to die for our sins then rise again to give us a chance at everlasting life with Him...
dermdoc
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Amen my friend.
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