Happy Reformation Day

10,005 Views | 129 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by swimmerbabe11
Zobel
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AG
Quote:

Lutherans, at least, recognize all 7 of the first Ecumenical Councils that the East does.

lol

Luther has a whole treatise called on the councils and the church where he basically employs tu quoque against Rome to justify jettisoning any and call councils and canons subject to his own reading of scripture...ironically enough including the council of Jerusalem and the restriction on eating blood.
AgLiving06
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Which changes nothing.

As Pr Weedon pointed out in the video, Luther is no Pope, nor are his writings or comments viewed as infallible.
Zobel
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

Which changes nothing.

As Pr Weedon pointed out in the video, Luther is no Pope, nor are his writings or comments viewed as infallible.
So Lutherans accept all of the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils?
dermdoc
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swimmerbabe11 said:



He did one for Orthodoxy too
Thanks. Really enjoyed that one also.

I am becoming more and more firmly convinced that the Orthodox theology is the correct one. Sola Scriptura was impossible prior to the printing press. And the reason the Reformers even brought that up was because the abuses and corruption of the Catholic Church at that time. And I think Calvin and Luther had no intention of getting rid of the tradition of the Church. I mean, Calvin basically copied Augustine in his theology.

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swimmerbabe11
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Who on this thread has read On the Councils and the Churches?
AgLiving06
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Since your trying to set up a gotcha for the 7th council, no we don't hold that we must follow every single canon.

But we do hold in this case that Icons are not idolatry and was clearly shown in the video.
Zobel
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AG
This guy
Zobel
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AgLiving06 said:

Since your trying to set up a gotcha for the 7th council, no we don't hold that we must follow every single canon.

But we do hold in this case that Icons are not idolatry and was clearly shown in the video.
not a gotcha for the 7th, a gotcha for any of them.

None of the Lutheran confessional documents accept the authority of the ecumenical councils beyond a cursory nod to the professions of faith. And everything they accept, they accept with the caveat of "well, as long as it follows scripture" which is no acceptance at all.
cavscout96
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Just downloaded it. WIll give it a read.
swimmerbabe11
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Blood sausage is delicious.
AggieRain
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Blood sausage is delicious.
swimmerbabe11
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Part two is up!

dermdoc
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Part two is up!


Thank you so much. I learned so much and really enjoyed Weedon.
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AgLiving06
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dermdoc said:

swimmerbabe11 said:

Part two is up!


Thank you so much. I learned so much and really enjoyed Weedon.

I feel like if he was the norm, Lutherans would be the norm. The real bummer is he isn't and we struggle further.
swimmerbabe11
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When are you coming to visit us at my church/Bible Study/are you going to friendsgiving tonight?
dermdoc
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He explained the Lutheran view on atonement and the differences between Lutheran and Calvinist theology better than anyone I have ever heard.
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swimmerbabe11
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The parts keep coming!

AgLiving06
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I missed this the other day.

We are still in the "40 days" the pastor set out to pray for an answer on what to do with the Church and School.

Depending on how this plays out, could be over there by end of the year.
Jaydoug
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Early Lutherans contacted the Orthodox church and began a corespondance:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/10/03/lutherans-greek-church/
swimmerbabe11
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It's like he knew you were coming!



About to listen to this
Zobel
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Jaydoug said:

Early Lutherans contacted the Orthodox church and began a corespondance:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/10/03/lutherans-greek-church/


Nice article. I found this one really great too:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/10/12/do-the-orthodox-have-confessions/
TSJ
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I have only been visiting an Orthodox Church for a couple of months but, I watched these videos and think Weedon is not getting it.

I am not sure about the prayer he is referencing that prays only to Mary. Everything I have encountered on the Theotokos is connected Jesus (literally she is not in icon without Him) and more globally every part of the service is directed toward Jesus so I have hard time with that.
swimmerbabe11
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So this is part 1. Now note, he is a Lutheran pastor talking to Lutheran pastors, so there is definitely inside baseball going on.

He reads the prayer at 25:24; I love his construction "I dont think that they are idolatrous, I think the Lord Jesus probably grabs that piece of mail and says 'mom, let get that, it's for me'"
chimpanzee
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Good series of vids, thanks all for posting.

I had not considered the position previously of Lutheranism thinking of itself as, effectively, the Western Orthodox Church, but that makes a lot of sense.

I am one who came to my faith later in life concurrent with good (and bad for that matter) influences from across the Christian spectrum. The good-faith pursuit of being part of the OHCAAC seems as noble a goal as any one organization can undertake, with inter-denominational conflicts/disagreements being almost impossible for one to objectively choose as comprehensively compelling.

C.S. Lewis' formulation in Mere Christianity has been helpful to me at the moment (I wouldn't really do it justice if I tried), but I keep reading more.
Zobel
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AG
He can read it in a snarky tone and act all shocked, but aside from some pearl-clutching and a "gracious" concession that the entire Orthodox church isn't a bunch of idolaters (phew!) what was his critique, exactly?

Every single time we hymn Mary, it is a confessing the person of her Son. It is a form of Christological Dogma. Her title "Theotokos" is the quintessential example of this. This is her honorific, a unique title for a unique person in human history, but what is it saying? That she bore God. Is this about her, or about Him?

Orthodox faith and practice is fundamentally experiential, and this experience is fundamentally liturgical. So, we see the Theotokos depicted in iconography in a very different way than the Roman Catholics do (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe). In an Orthodox church you will find that she's almost never "the Virgin," but the Theotokos. And in this role she continually represents the Church ministering to us, and Christ ministering to the Church. She is us in iconography, in both directions (whether she is looking to Him, or looking to you!).

Her typical icons are like the Hodegetria,"she who points the way" depicting her pointing towards Christ, inclining her head to Him. In this she is the Church, showing the way to Christ to you.


In the Deesis (supplication) she prays to Christ Jesus enthroned (Pantocrator, the Almighty) one one side, with St John the Forerunner on the other, confessing His power, and the continuity of the Prophets with the Church. A prophet on one side, and the lowliest, humblest person in Jewish society - a young girl who calls herself the "lowly slave of God" (same word "lowly" or "humble" Christ speaks of Himself). The Iconostasis in every Orthodox church mirrors this - Christ on the right, St John to His right, the Theotokos opposite: old and new, unbroken, all praising and worshipping and interceeding and witnessing to Christ. She is the Church, us.

In the Eleousa (lit. tenderness or showing mercy) she holds Christ Jesus against her cheek, flesh to flesh, confessing His humanity and love. She is typically looking out toward us, witnessing to us the intimacy and mercy of Christ with His bride, the Church.

Most churches feature her over the altar, the Platytera ("wider" or "more spacious") a confession that she became was "more spacious than the heavens" to contain the uncontainable God. This also shows that now, in our churches, our altar has a bema seat like the temple, but instead of it being empty with the invisible presence of God it is now filled (this is why the Platytera is usually flanked with angels, like the ark was).


When we call her the Panagia "all-holy" it is because she is a witness to human freedom. She is chosen by God, but she also chooses to accept. She represents both grace and synergia (co-working), predestination and free will. Not on her own, but as the example of Christians of what all humans can and should be (St Maximos says, for example, we should all become little theotokos', giving birth to Christ in ourselves through obedience and faith). She is the most beautiful representation of the promise St Paul speaks of - neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female. The first is last and the last first, the lowliest member of Jewish society becomes the image of the quintessential Christian. Just as Christ is The Man, The Anthropos, The Seed (singular!) of Abraham through which all the promises run, Mary is The Woman, the new Eve, the representation of human obedience as it should have been - and our best representative.

Given all that, let's revisit the post communion prayer.
Quote:

O All-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy: I thank thee that thou hast accounted me worthy, although unworthy, to be a partaker of the immaculate Body and precious Blood of thy Son. But do thou, who gavest birth to the true Light, enlighten the mental eyes of my heart; O thou who didst bear the fountain of immortality, quicken thou me who lie dead in sin, O compassion-loving Mother of the merciful God, have mercy upon me, and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and meekness in my thoughts, and deliverance from the bondage of my vain imaginings. And account me worthy, even unto my last breath, to receive without condemnation the sanctification of the immaculate Mysteries, unto the healing of both soul and body. And grant unto me tears of repentance and confession, that I may hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life: for blessed and glorified art thou unto all ages. Amen.
It is beautiful.
swimmerbabe11
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Mail addressed to wrong person was his critique.

I mean no disrespect to the Theotokos, Mary is blessed amongst all women... but if I was in his shoes and on the precipice of conversion like he was, that would probably keep me from it. I have not yet met her and I hope it is many years until I do, but I imagine she also deflects all of these sort or praises and prayers to her son.

I imagine Weedon also means no offense. He is huge on the saints and feast days and all of those things.
Zobel
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That's a shallow critique. It's the exact same as "well you should never pray to anyone but Jesus" or "call no man teacher/instructor/father".

It fundamentally misses the point of all Marian piety, and truly all reverence we pay the saints: that they are what they are because of their relationship to Christ Jesus.

There is only one Father, but we have people who image the Father in how they interact with us. We have only one Bishop, Pastor, Teacher, Shepherd, but we have people who image Him. The scriptures call us God's christs, His anointed ones, but there is only one Christ. We become sons, yet there is only one Son.

We have only one Light, Hope, one Shelter, one Refuge, one Consolation, one Joy - but the Theotokos images these things by grace! And the same for all Christians, by the grace of God.
Serotonin
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Quote:

Orthodox faith and practice is fundamentally experiential, and this experience is fundamentally liturgical.
To further demonstrate k2's point here, I think if you watch 3 minutes of this clip you will see how different the experiential/liturgical approach is (compared to Weedon's scholastic approach):


The Theotokos is integral to the ongoing life of the Orthodox Church (and all other apostolic churches). She's not a background character from the Bible, she is an active presence in the lives of believers. She is the Mother of God and our Mother as well.

So what is the problem?

EDIT: I'll quote one of the comments below the video:
Quote:

His story of Mother Mary moves me to tears. I knew before he even said it that she had told him "I will be your Mother." I am a survivor of severe childhood abuse and neglect. When I was just a small toddler, Mother Mary said the same words to me. All aglow in the claustrophobic blackness of my room, she identified herself as Mary, Mother of Jesus. She is a very early memory. She led me to her Son!
This has happened to so many Christians throughout the centuries.
swimmerbabe11
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Ytjfus475sy4d75

I just typed so many words and accidentally refreshed and lost everything and it was probably too personal anyway and I dont even know if it made sense and now I'm super frustrated.
Serotonin
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Ytjfus475sy4d75

I just typed so many words and accidentally refreshed and lost everything and it was probably too personal anyway and I dont even know if it made sense and now I'm super frustrated.
I'm sorry, that's really frustrating.
swimmerbabe11
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Okay let's try this again.

I have an image of Mary in my life. My grandmother, who died when I was very young, was the most patient, kind, loving, gentle and humble person you've ever met. I've always imagined that If Mary was a german, she'd be much like Annemarie. So, when I think of these things, I often imagine how she would react..and that informs some opinions. She would be quite scandalized and chide that we never lose focus..and to quit paying so much attention to her. Humility is one of the most prized traits of the saints..so I imagine most of them would feel the same. Paul believed He was the chief of sinners and worthy of no honor. I absolutely believe we should honor the saints and study their lives as examples and witness to our own.

I am not even adamantly opposed to invocation of the saints, even though I wont practice it. I just think that you have to be beyond careful and precise with your language, so as to not fall into error. While I was typing my last post that failed, i thought of an idea that I do love.. we know the saints pray for us. That is what they are doing now.. instead of the EO/RCC habits of intercessionary prayers that focus towards the saints (my wording continues to be funky and I don't think I worded it any better last time but I'm not sure of the right way to express this thought, my apologies), simply prefacing your prayer with a simple "Saint ___ , please say this prayer with me:"

I have no qualms with that whatsoever. When my grandmother passed, I often would say my prayers and at the end say "Hey God, would you get Meme on the phone now. I wanna talk to her for a bit." And then I would just tell her about my day. It makes more sense to me that direction than the other... just like the communion rail connects us to those on heaven and earth and all over the world..its done through Christ.

That was still pretty stream of consciousness. Sorry. :/
Zobel
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This is such a frustrating topic.

Orthodox folks are saying: "Faith and worship are experiential and contextual, and context is worship, which in Orthodoxy is fundamentally Christocentric. Everything we do starts with Christ, and flows out."`

Then other says "I don't have any experience in the Orthodox tradition or in Orthodox worship. But, I think it's wrong, and they should pay more attention to Christ and less attention to Mary."
Serotonin
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AG
But if your grandmother was alive today would you honor her on her birthday? Would you celebrate her? Would you express your love for her through a heart-felt card or a gift? Would she discourage you from showing your love in that way?

In a different thread you talked about taking joy in sunsets and chocolate cake and puppies and other things. If we can praise those things and use them to uplift ourselves then can't we do the same with the Most Holy creation of God? If those things can help us can she not?

But as k2 alluded to above, this is all intellectual speculation; don't we have the reality and the experience of the Church and humble believers to point to?
swimmerbabe11
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Gator03 said:

But if your grandmother was alive today would you honor her on her birthday? Would you celebrate her? Would you express your love for her through a heart-felt card or a gift? Would she discourage you from showing your love in that way?

In a different thread you talked about taking joy in sunsets and chocolate cake and puppies and other things. If we can praise those things and use them to uplift ourselves then can't we do the same with the Most Holy creation of God? If those things can help us can she not?

But as k2 alluded to above, this is all intellectual speculation; don't we have the reality and the experience of the Church and humble believers to point to?




I'm not sure I understand. We do celebrate the lives of the saints. We do have feast days. We do honor and we do venerate, we just dont invoke.
Serotonin
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AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

Gator03 said:

But if your grandmother was alive today would you honor her on her birthday? Would you celebrate her? Would you express your love for her through a heart-felt card or a gift? Would she discourage you from showing your love in that way?

In a different thread you talked about taking joy in sunsets and chocolate cake and puppies and other things. If we can praise those things and use them to uplift ourselves then can't we do the same with the Most Holy creation of God? If those things can help us can she not?

But as k2 alluded to above, this is all intellectual speculation; don't we have the reality and the experience of the Church and humble believers to point to?




I'm not sure I understand. We do celebrate the lives of the saints. We do have feast days. We do honor and we do venerate, we just dont invoke.
This was based on this:
Quote:

So, when I think of these things, I often imagine how she would react..and that informs some opinions. She would be quite scandalized and chide that we never lose focus..and to quit paying so much attention to her.

 
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