Happy Reformation Day

9,978 Views | 129 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by swimmerbabe11
Zobel
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AG
PS the only way the "right" use of the filioque is the temporal mission. But this directly contradicts the council of Lyons and the current catechism of Rome from the council of Florence that the filioque is the eternal procession of of the Spirit from the Father and the Son as from one source. The first sense is patristic East and west, the second absolutely is not and also absolutely is what the RCC held as the interpretation of their own addition to the creed. This is how Fr Andrew Stephen Damick speaks of it, because I happened to listen to a talk he gave on it today. And of course he completely rejects its insertion and use in the symbol of faith.

Fr Andrew in this tall called it a distortion, a heresy, an affront to ecclesial union, and a theological absurdity in many cases quoting fathers like St Photios.
AgLiving06
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Quote:

Even a polite nuh uh is more or less the end of a discussion. It's the absence of communication. Even here you haven't actually said what you think, only that I'm wrong and disingenuous. If you think there is an error or misunderstanding, point it out. Else there's no benefit to talking.

Your entire "discussion" style is to lecture others on what they believe. Most of the time, the nicest thing that can be done is to politely decline to engage with you.

Quote:

You said you didn't make the claim that the fathers didn't write in accordance with the scriptures. Ok, maybe you didn't. But you said IF you reject them, you would reject them on that basis. There are only two options then: accept the fathers as authoritative or reject them on the basis of scripture. And we know that Lutheranism has issues with certain patristic texts and applications. We come back to the same spot: we accept them as both authoritative and based on scripture. How do you fix this?

Nonsense. I don't accept the box you're trying to force this discussion into.

The Patristic Father's are not infallible.

Because they are man, and therefore sinful, we test everything against the Scriptures and take what brings wisdom and leave what does not stand.

Quote:

Filioque answer is a non answer. I guarantee you Fr Stephen doesn't recite the filioque, so why appeal to his authority?

To show that not all Orthodox take the approach you do...

Sure he doesn't recite it. I never claimed he did. That was you putting words in for me. I merely pointed out that it's not as black and white as you'd have us believe.

Quote:

You didn't answer. If it's about scripture, and we also look to the fathers to check against innovation, why use the filioque which is non-scriptural AND non-patristic?

Of course I answered.I said within the right context, the Filioque is correct.

Most (including the Orthodox) are willing to admit it is Scriptural. Not sure why it's so controversial for you?

Zobel
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AG
I'm sorry - I'm not trying to lecture at all, or tell you what your beliefs are. I'm trying to explain in my own words from my experience of going to Lutheran churches for several years, and Lutheran catechesis. When I said, where is the error, that's a sincere question. It's not disingenuous at all. I believe what I've said is an honest explanation of the derivation of the Lutheran confessions. If that's not your understanding, I would like to know where you don't agree.

Quote:

The Patristic Father's are not infallible. Because they are man, and therefore sinful, we test everything against the Scriptures and take what brings wisdom and leave what does not stand.

I genuinely don't understand how this is different than what I said, other than adding that the fathers aren't infallible or sinless (which I know you know the orthodox agree with) How is "we test everything against the scriptures" different from "if you reject them you do on the basis of scripture"? It seems to be two ways to say the same thing?

Quote:

Of course I answered.I said within the right context, the Filioque is correct.

Most (including the Orthodox) are willing to admit it is Scriptural. Not sure why it's so controversial for you?

The only context that matters is in the Symbol of Faith. As I said, some of the Latin fathers (and maybe St John of Damascus, I don't remember) wrote that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, but the patristic tradition - East and west - only talks about sending / through the son in the context of temporal mission into the world. When speaking of the eternal reality (technically called "spiration") the East and many western fathers including some popes explicitly rejected the filioque.

How can you say the filioque is scriptural? What scripture says it? Since you brought him up, Fr Andrew Stephen Damick pointed out perhaps the biggest issue with it is that it alters the words of the Lord in John 15:26. Quite simply, scripture never says the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
swimmerbabe11
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Personally, Im willing to drop the filioque AND change the date for Easter. I'm magnanimous and compromising that way.


According to a recent poll on my Twitter, over 60% of Lutherans would drop the filioque If it meant being in communion with the East.
AggieRain
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AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

Personally, Im willing to drop the filioque AND change the date for Easter. I'm magnanimous and compromising that way.


According to a recent poll on my Twitter, over 60% of Lutherans would drop the filioque If it meant being in communion with the East.


So would many RRC For what it is worth. I'd say the great majority are largely unaware of the issue.
Serotonin
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AG
Let's keep praying for it.

I love many aspects of Lutheran culture but most importantly...Bach
swimmerbabe11
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The Easter thing annoys me to no end. It's just a date. Christ would prefer we celebrate His victory all at the same time far more than what date is the most precise. Just get past the pride.


And yes, Bach is amazing. Lutherans have the bestest music.

I wants to visit this Lutheran church!
Zobel
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AG
The problem as I see it these days is in the elevation of logic or reason to be on par with faith in the west as a means to approach God. This is the inheritance the Protestants received from Rome. If you look at all the Reformation traditions they all, universally, use scripture armed with reason as the basis for understanding or perceiving truth. Even the Romans use phrases like "faith and reason are the two wings with which we approach salvation".

This environment of reason brings with it a need for epistemological certainty. If each person can reach the truth through reason, each then needs to be certain. In RCC it manifests in how they treat the magisterium, specifically in the simple clarity of Papal infallibility. Or in their thousand+ point catechism. Or with their (from the East's view) over-defining the mysteries. You see it all the time on here, when people want a precise definition of orthodox dogmas, or a precise definition of patristic consensus. We don't have it, because epistemological certainty isn't guaranteed. Even our professions of faith are formed as bounds around the truth but explicitly denied as being true themselves, instead speaking of ineffable realities.

Within this environment the different Protestant traditions agree "it must be found in scripture" and "it must be plain faced reading". When they disagree then, it's in their logic or understanding of the reasonable meaning. Eck recognized this in the very beginning, in the debates with Luther, when he said - this elevates ones own opinion to supreme.

The real challenge is bridging this. I don't know how you do it, because I think most Protestants aren't when aware that this real and material difference even exists. It was crazy challenging for me... I still struggle with it!

So I am pessimistic. I don't think it will happen, because truly sola scriptura is deeply rooted here. Lutherans, Protestants in general, will never abandon that. And it will, I think, continue to separate us.
swimmerbabe11
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So maybe that's the problem on our side. However, the "yall just showed up at our party" attitude is certainly not constructive either. There are barriers to dialogue on both sides.
Zobel
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AG
From this lens let's look at maybe the most celebrated quote of the reformation:

"Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of popes and councils for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen."

But it is interesting what he was actually responding to:
"Martin, your plea to be heard from Scripture is the one always made by heretics. You do nothing but renew the errors of Wyclif and Hus. How will the Jews, how will the Turks, exult to hear Christians discussing whether they have been wrong all these years! Martin, how can you assume that you are the only one to understand the sense of Scripture? Would you put your judgment above that of so many famous men and claim that you know more than they all? You have no right to call into question the most holy orthodox faith, instituted by Christ the perfect lawgiver, proclaimed throughout the world by the apostles, sealed by the red blood of the martyrs, confirmed by the sacred councils, defined by the Church in which all our fathers believed until death and gave to us an inheritance, and which we are forbidden by the pope and the emperor to discuss lest there be no end of debate. I ask you, Martin a answer candidly and without horns - do you or do you not repudiate your books and the errors which they contain?"

Well there it is gif. (Hot link protection has defeated me.)


The entire reformation, the entire issue in a nutshell. There can be no solution when each is only subject to "plain reason". One persons plain reason is another's nonsense. And so, we arrive to where we are today, fracture after fracture.

Same thing since the 400s. St Vincent wrote:

But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason - because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and universal interpretation.

Shrug. What can you do?
FriscoKid
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AG
Do you follow the 1517 guys at all? They are kind of some new fun pastors and teachers in the Lutheran church.

https://www.1517.org/
Zobel
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AG
From St Basil the Great's On the Holy Spirit

Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us in a mystery by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force. And these no one will gainsay - no one, at all events, who is even moderately versed in the institutions of the Church. For were we to attempt to reject such customs as have no written authority, on the ground that the importance they possess is small, we should unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals; or, rather, should make our public definition a mere phrase and nothing more. For instance, to take the first and most general example, who is thence who has taught us in writing to sign with the sign of the cross those who have trusted in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ? What writing has taught us to turn to the East at the prayer? Which of the saints has left us in writing the words of the invocation at the displaying of the bread of the Eucharist and the cup of blessing? For we are not, as is well known, content with what the apostle or the Gospel has recorded, but both in preface and conclusion we add other words as being of great importance to the validity of the ministry, and these we derive from unwritten teaching. Moreover we bless the water of baptism and the oil of the chrism, and besides this the catechumen who is being baptized. On what written authority do we do this? Is not our authority silent and mystical tradition? Nay, by what written word is the anointing of oil itself taught? And whence comes the custom of baptizing thrice? And as to the other customs of baptism from what Scripture do we derive the renunciation of Satan and his angels? Does not this come from that unpublished and mystical teaching which our fathers guarded in a silence out of the reach of curious meddling and inquisitive investigation? Well had they learned the lesson that the awful dignity of the mysteries is best preserved by silence. What the uninitiated are not even allowed to look at was hardly likely to be publicly paraded about in written documents. What was the meaning of the mighty Moses in not making all the parts of the tabernacle open to every one? The profane he stationed without the sacred barriers; the first courts he conceded to the purer; the Levites alone he judged worthy of being servants of the Deity; sacrifices and burnt offerings and the rest of the priestly functions he allotted to the priests; one chosen out of all he admitted to the shrine, and even this one not always but on only one day in the year, and of this one day a time was fixed for his entry so that he might gaze on the Holy of Holies amazed at the strangeness and novelty of the sight. Moses was wise enough to know that contempt stretches to the trite and to the obvious, while a keen interest is naturally associated with the unusual and the unfamiliar. In the same manner the Apostles and Fathers who laid down laws for the Church from the beginning thus guarded the awful dignity of the mysteries in secrecy and silence, for what is bruited abroad random among the common folk is no mystery at all. This is the reason for our tradition of unwritten precepts and practices, that the knowledge of our dogmas may not become neglected and contemned by the multitude through familiarity. Dogma and Kerugma are two distinct things; the former is observed in silence; the latter is proclaimed to all the world. One form of this silence is the obscurity employed in Scripture, which makes the meaning of dogmas difficult to be understood for the very advantage of the reader...
...
Time will fail me if I attempt to recount the unwritten mysteries of the Church. Of the rest I say nothing; but of the very confession of our faith in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, what is the written source? If it be granted that, as we are baptized, so also under the obligation to believe, we make our confession in like terms as our baptism, in accordance with the tradition of our baptism and in conformity with the principles of true religion, let our opponents grant us too the right to be as consistent in our ascription of glory as in our confession of faith. If they deprecate our doxology on the ground that it lacks written authority, let them give us the written evidence for the confession of our faith and the other matters which we have enumerated. While the unwritten traditions are so many, and their bearing on the mystery of godliness (1 Timothy 3:16) is so important, can they refuse to allow us a single word which has come down to us from the Fathers; - which we found, derived from untutored custom, abiding in unperverted churches; - a word for which the arguments are strong, and which contributes in no small degree to the completeness of the force of the mystery?
...
In answer to the objection that the doxology in the form with the Spirit has no written authority, we maintain that if there is no other instance of that which is unwritten, then this must not be received. But if the greater number of our mysteries are admitted into our constitution without written authority, then, in company with the many others, let us receive this one. For I hold it apostolic to abide also by the unwritten traditions. I praise you, it is said, that you remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as I delivered them to you; (1 Corinthians 11:2) and Hold fast the traditions which you have been taught whether by word, or our Epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) One of these traditions is the practice which is now before us, which they who ordained from the beginning, rooted firmly in the churches, delivering it to their successors, and its use through long custom advances pace by pace with time.

If, as in a Court of Law, we were at a loss for documentary evidence, but were able to bring before you a large number of witnesses, would you not give your vote for our acquittal? I think so; for at the mouth of two or three witnesses shall the matter be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15) And if we could prove clearly to you that a long period of time was in our favour, should we not have seemed to you to urge with reason that this suit ought not to be brought into court against us? For ancient dogmas inspire a certain sense of awe, venerable as they are with a hoary antiquity.

I will therefore give you a list of the supporters of the word (and the time too must be taken into account in relation to what passes unquestioned). For it did not originate with us. How could it? We, in comparison with the time during which this word has been in vogue, are, to use the words of Job, but of yesterday. (Job 8:9) I myself, if I must speak of what concerns me individually, cherish this phrase as a legacy left me by my fathers. It was delivered to me by one who spent a long life in the service of God, and by him I was both baptized, and admitted to the ministry of the church....

////

Sola Scriptura is simply not a patristic teaching, and stands starkly in contrast to the general heuristic of the fathers.
swimmerbabe11
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Hmmm I learned something today
swimmerbabe11
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FriscoKid said:

Do you follow the 1517 guys at all? They are kind of some new fun pastors and teachers in the Lutheran church.

https://www.1517.org/


So I'm not familiar with all those guys, but I'm definitely not a big chad bird/christ hold fast fan tbh
AgLiving06
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FriscoKid said:

Do you follow the 1517 guys at all? They are kind of some new fun pastors and teachers in the Lutheran church.

https://www.1517.org/

I listen to some of their podcasts.

Thinking Fellows
Banned Books
Christianity on Trial - Just ok and I only sporadically listen to it.

Rod Rosenbladt in particular is one of the finest living Theologians and has interacted with nearly everyone of note during his life.

Banned Books can be hit or miss. Donovan Riley loves to ramble and make some controversial statements, but when he's on a book he really knows, he can be amazing. He's going through "The Bondage of the Will" right now and that was essentially his specialty and it's great.

In general, those are great, but you have to listen to with some caution. They certainly lean a little liberal and are quite strong supporters of Gerhard Forde, who is quite controversial.
AgLiving06
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Your general method is to try and construct either/or questions that fit the answer you're after. That's the problem.

Quote:

I genuinely don't understand how this is different than what I said, other than adding that the fathers aren't infallible or sinless (which I know you know the orthodox agree with) How is "we test everything against the scriptures" different from "if you reject them you do on the basis of scripture"? It seems to be two ways to say the same thing?

The problem is you come from this from a disingenuous angle.

If we agree that the fathers are sinless, than we agree we can't take everything they wrote as Gospel. So we both test them against something. Lutherans against Scriptures, Orthodox against the consensus of Faith (though I still may be saying this wrong).

Yet you want to argue that Lutheran's are doing something materially different than you. It's weird.
FriscoKid
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

FriscoKid said:

Do you follow the 1517 guys at all? They are kind of some new fun pastors and teachers in the Lutheran church.

https://www.1517.org/

I listen to some of their podcasts.

Thinking Fellows
Banned Books
Christianity on Trial - Just ok and I only sporadically listen to it.

Rod Rosenbladt in particular is one of the finest living Theologians and has interacted with nearly everyone of note during his life.

Banned Books can be hit or miss. Donovan Riley loves to ramble and make some controversial statements, but when he's on a book he really knows, he can be amazing. He's going through "The Bondage of the Will" right now and that was essentially his specialty and it's great.

In general, those are great, but you have to listen to with some caution. They certainly lean a little liberal and are quite strong supporters of Gerhard Forde, who is quite controversial.

I've met Dr. Keith a couple times. He butts heats with the conservative wing of the synod, but he's solid. I really enjoyed my time with him.
Zobel
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AG
There's more than a little bit of irony in chastising me for telling you what you believe by telling me what I try to do, don't you think?

I'm not being disingenuous. That would imply that I'm being insincere or somehow tricky. I'm not being tricky, I am being as candid as I can.

Ok - right - good - we agree that Lutherans test them against scripture. That's what I said, that's good. We're not arguing while agreeing any more.

On the other hand, I don't agree that we "test" them. They're already tested, that's why they are the holy fathers versus some ancient writers. So yes, I think Lutherans are very much doing something materially different than the Orthodox here. The crux of the issue is that Lutherans are doing a post-facto test on something that has already been accepted.

So Lutheran say, this doesn't match scripture. Orthodox say, of course it does, if it was contrary to scripture we would have never accepted it in the first place. You have two contrary views of scripture being revealed through acceptance or rejection tradition, one preceding the other. This is why I asked - what do you do then? Where is the actual disagreement? Scripture? Or interpretation and application?
swimmerbabe11
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Gerhard Forde


But, I'm pretty far on the conservative wing and lean east.
FriscoKid
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AG
Furthermore, I love the liturgical service and the reason why everything is laid out the way that it is, but growing up I just had it memorized. I didn't understand why things were done the way that they were. I'm a pretty big fan of challenging the still necked conservatives in St Louis from time to time. Arguing over the red, blue, or green hymnal is just dumb.

I like the robe, but how many people in the congregation know why the pastor wears a white robe with a rope belt?

The theology is rock solid, but I look at the video that swimmerbabe posted and I look at the attendance in the church. There has to be a better way of giving the goods. And, I don't want to compromise one inch on the confessions, concord, Bible, etc.

I'm in a more liberal church now that has guitar music instead of the organ and some stuff bugs me, but I feel like I have the opportunity to go deeper with folks when I need to. But, I could have had the same opportunity in the most traditional church too.
AgLiving06
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FriscoKid said:

AgLiving06 said:

FriscoKid said:

Do you follow the 1517 guys at all? They are kind of some new fun pastors and teachers in the Lutheran church.

https://www.1517.org/

I listen to some of their podcasts.

Thinking Fellows
Banned Books
Christianity on Trial - Just ok and I only sporadically listen to it.

Rod Rosenbladt in particular is one of the finest living Theologians and has interacted with nearly everyone of note during his life.

Banned Books can be hit or miss. Donovan Riley loves to ramble and make some controversial statements, but when he's on a book he really knows, he can be amazing. He's going through "The Bondage of the Will" right now and that was essentially his specialty and it's great.

In general, those are great, but you have to listen to with some caution. They certainly lean a little liberal and are quite strong supporters of Gerhard Forde, who is quite controversial.

I've met Dr. Keith a couple times. He butts heats with the conservative wing of the synod, but he's solid. I really enjoyed my time with him.

I thought about mentioning him, but he's a bit harder to describe.

He's interesting in that he's somewhat inconsistent (or consistent) in his viewpoints. You've met him so that may make sense.

He certainly has a favoritism towards Forde, that the like from The Lutheran Seminary, yet he's also very liturgical in his views. I also don't think he'd agree with the more liberal aspects that Forde and others would have preached.

My biggest issue with them (and I've emailed them on it before) is that if you are new to Lutheranism (as I was), you might think some of the things they talk about and seemingly support are LCMS doctrine. It's only when you really study up on it that you begin to see that they don't always have the greatest guests on.
AgLiving06
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My church has gone full blown contemporary for the second service. Drums, bass guitar, regular guitar, etc. Hillsong every couple songs along with the other mega-church bands.

With my two boys it's not feasible to make the early service so we are somewhat stuck with it.

It's super frustrating to watch the church fall apart. I've asked the Pastor in the past and more or less get ignored. We would likely have left by now, but we have made great relationships with people there and it's not easy to break those apart.

(and Swimmer I know the offer to attend MLC is still there haha).



AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

There's more than a little bit of irony in chastising me for telling you what you believe by telling me what I try to do, don't you think?

I'm not being disingenuous. That would imply that I'm being insincere or somehow tricky. I'm not being tricky, I am being as candid as I can.

Ok - right - good - we agree that Lutherans test them against scripture. That's what I said, that's good. We're not arguing while agreeing any more.

On the other hand, I don't agree that we "test" them. They're already tested, that's why they are the holy fathers versus some ancient writers. So yes, I think Lutherans are very much doing something materially different than the Orthodox here. The crux of the issue is that Lutherans are doing a post-facto test on something that has already been accepted.

So Lutheran say, this doesn't match scripture. Orthodox say, of course it does, if it was contrary to scripture we would have never accepted it in the first place. You have two contrary views of scripture being revealed through acceptance or rejection tradition, one preceding the other. This is why I asked - what do you do then? Where is the actual disagreement? Scripture? Or interpretation and application?


So the Holy Father's aren't infallible, but are in fact infallible. Gotcha.

Zobel
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AG
Ok, I see we've gone past useful discussion. Best of luck.
FriscoKid
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AG
His book on "Being Dad" is fantastic. I could probably split hairs on some things and find criticism, but the premise is right on. Luther wrote the small catechism for dads and not for pastors. It doesn't get a lot more "Lutheran" than that.

But, he really is rock solid in his theology. He's not traditional, but he's solid.
swimmerbabe11
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If your congregation doesn't understand the liturgy or the robes or the traditions, it doesnt mean there are problems with the traditions
It means the pastor isnt doing the things he needs educate his flock on their purpose.

I go to a rather large, very diverse, young congregation that is high church. I went to a church in Kentucky where the pastor was basically re-catechizing his church on tradition and liturgy
He had a laminated pamphlet in the pew racks with explanation of vestments, the altar, the candles, and some "what does this mean" for the doxology and other parts of the liturgy. It was a fantastic tool esp for visitors.

I would not continue membership at a church who looked to hillsong for ideas on music. The idea is offensive.

If a pastor mentions Forde, I pretty much will tune them out from then on. Church Growther? Nope.
Out.
 
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