k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

On Friday at the synod, Francis asked Amazonian bishops and local tribal leaders for forgiveness after indigenous statues were stolen from a Vatican-area church and thrown into a river. The pope insisted the wood-carved statues of naked pregnant women, known as Pachamama, were not a symbol of idolatry as conservatives had claimed, but rather were symbols of life, fertility and Mother Earth.

---

---

"Look, y'all. Bowing down to idols is not idolatrous." /Vatican Spin Machine

Quote:

---

"Well, we all have our own interpretations the Virgin Mary, the Mother Earth, probably those who used this symbol demonstrated, wishes to reflect fertility, to women, to life, the life presence among these Amazonian people and Amazonia is meant to be full of life. I don't think we need to create any connections with the Virgin Mary or with a pagan element"

"It is an indigenous woman who represents life...it is a feminine figure...neither pagan nor sacred."

---

So it's neither sacred nor profane. Which makes it mundane, like a doorknob or a trash can. So why is it a central part of a church ceremony, and why does anyone care if it gets thrown in a river?

The part about it not being an idol because it's a symbol of life and women is ridiculous. Pagan fertility symbols are as old as history.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

"Well, we all have our own interpretations the Virgin Mary, the Mother Earth, probably those who used this symbol demonstrated, wishes to reflect fertility, to women, to life, the life presence among these Amazonian people and Amazonia is meant to be full of life. I don't think we need to create any connections with the Virgin Mary or with a pagan element"

"It is an indigenous woman who represents life...it is a feminine figure...neither pagan nor sacred."

---

So it's neither sacred nor profane. Which makes it mundane, like a doorknob or a trash can. So why is it a central part of a church ceremony, and why does anyone care if it gets thrown in a river?

The part about it not being an idol because it's a symbol of life and women is ridiculous. Pagan fertility symbols are as old as history.

---

Depends who's talking, apparently. I'm not sure that the Vatican currently considers doctrine at all. They are busy discerning what the trees can tell us about Jesus Christ that the Apostles, Church Fathers, councils, and authors of Holy Scripture didn't bother considering.

In April, Italian bishops referred to Pachamama as "Mother Earth of the Inca peoples" and published the following prayer to her:

Quote:

---

Pachamama of these places, drink and eat this offering at will, so that this earth may be fruitful. Pachamama, good Mother, be favorable! Be favorable! Make that the oxen walk well, and that they not become tired. Make that the seed sprout well, that nothing bad may happen to it, that the cold may not destroy it, that it produce good food. We ask this from you: give us everything. Be favorable! Be favorable!

---

Do bishops often publish prayers to non-sacred beings?

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=43919

Who you gonna believe, the Vatican spokesmen or your lying eyes?



I wouldn't have thought the Anglicans putting a carnival ride in the church could look comparatively reverent, yet here we are.

I honestly don't understand how any God-fearing bishop doesn't send a wtf missive to Rome, and strongly consider walking off their flock based on that response.

k2aggie07 said:

---

I honestly don't understand how any God-fearing bishop doesn't send a wtf missive to Rome, and strongly consider walking off their flock based on that response.

---

There have been a few that I have run across, but only a few. I can only hope that they are searching for the best words in a bit of shock/disbelief at the moment, but it would be against informed expectations to think they are going to get a rational doctrinally sound reconciliation of this mess from Rome.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bishop-athanasius-schneider-issues-open-letter-condemning-pachamama-statue-as-new-golden-calf

k2aggie07 said:

---

That's my point. I don't think you need a fancy high brow letter or a fancy high brow doctrinal explanation. This is wrong. Not concerning. Not worrisome. Just plain wrong. They don't need to grandstand or make a fiery speech. Just politely ask if this is going to end and be repudiated, and if not, you say, I can no longer be in communion with you. Walling off, not schism.

---

I have read speculation in recent days that the Vatican is trying to force that hand to be played. Francis is on record as stating that schism don't really bother him. I'm not canonically informed enough of what would be considered a schism or otherwise.

I think unfortunately, separating from Rome is just more mentally unthinkable than even lazily/tacitly tolerating idolatry. So much of the RCC's concept of legitimacy/authority is tied to St. Peter's tomb location and the bishopric of the surrounding territory. The unity under the Holy See has become a fundamental piece of the Church's identity, separate and apart from sound doctrine put forward by the Magesterium.

k2aggie07 said:

---

That's my point. I don't think you need a fancy high brow letter or a fancy high brow doctrinal explanation. This is wrong. Not concerning. Not worrisome. Just plain wrong. They don't need to grandstand or make a fiery speech. Just politely ask if this is going to end and be repudiated, and if not, you say, I can no longer be in communion with you. Walling off, not schism.

---

This pope doesn't believe in walls.

Last Sunday would have been a great time to become Lutheran.

Bump because how is it possible that this faded away

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-americas/2019/12/central-american-bishops-defend-francis-over-amazon-synod-pachamama/

Need to have an Elijah showdown. One group can pray to Mary statues, and the other group can pray to Isis, or whatever that thing is. See which group gets their fajitas cooked first.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Bump because how is it possible that this faded away

---

Last I heard, it was waiting on official approval of the final report. Until they start ordaining women or married men, I don't know what else will be known as adopted policy.

Edit: wrong smiley face.

chimpanzee said:

---

swimmerbabe11 said:

---

Last Sunday would have been a great time to become Lutheran.

---

Listening to the Germans got us into this mess in the first place!

---

Speaking of whom...

German cardinal: Some synodal path proposals are 'incompatible' with Catholic faith

The Germans and their church tax revenues are cranking out some weird dynamics these days.

Pope Francis has ruled against ordaining married men in the Amazon region as a means of addressing the shortage of Catholic priests.

...

Also on Wednesday, the Pope announced he had decided not to allow women to serve as deacons, a lower rank than priest.

Separately he called for the environment in the Amazon to be defended due to its vital role in mitigating global warming.

"We demand an end to the mistreatment and destruction of mother Earth," the Pope said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-51474009

This is a good surprise! I had been hearing he was expected to allow married priests.

Pro Sandy said:

---

Pope Francis has ruled against ordaining married men in the Amazon region as a means of addressing the shortage of Catholic priests.

...

Also on Wednesday, the Pope announced he had decided not to allow women to serve as deacons, a lower rank than priest.

Separately he called for the environment in the Amazon to be defended due to its vital role in mitigating global warming.

"We demand an end to the mistreatment and destruction of mother Earth," the Pope said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-51474009

---

+1 for orthodoxy on ordinations

-1 for more "mother earth" ism

I'm not clear on what he's referring to with "mother Earth" apparently being actively destroyed, but whatever it is, let's have a fulsome rundown of the costs and benefits of plausible alternatives that he is demanding that the world undertake.

Quote:

---

+1 for orthodoxy on ordinations

---

Orthodoxy allows for married priests and (in the past) female deacons.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

+1 for orthodoxy on ordinations

---

Orthodoxy allows for married priests and (in the past) female deacons.

---

Ha.

Small "o"...

One anti-Francis website's counterpoint...

All the references to constitutions, exhortations, approvals, canon law, etc., are enough to make you doubt the whole enterprise regardless of what anyone says they say.