Pan-Amazon Synod

5,614 Views | 56 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by chimpanzee
Not a Bot
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I'm not Catholic and have not been paying attention at all to what the church has been doing, but apparently there's a lot of controversy around this meeting, with some groups apparently saying it would potentially destroy the church.

Curious if anyone has thoughts.
94chem
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I don't know. But I hope they can address their irregular delivery schedules and the pay rates of their employees.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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RC here. It's a very controversial gathering of bishops because early indications are that the modernists in the episcopate are going to test legitimizing things such as female deacons and a limited married priesthood. If you are truly interested in understanding what is at stake, Taylor Marshall has some insightful thoughts from the traditionalists perspective.

Personally, I think it's another example of the poison of modernism and how its adherents among some bishops and cardinals (including Francis) are trying to change the Church.

But in the end, the gates of hell will not prevail.
ramblin_ag02
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XUSCR said:


But in the end, the gates of hell will not prevail.


This has the be the most incomprehensible thing to me as a non-Catholic. We could find out that the Pope and every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the entire RCC is a pedophile, kidnapping, murdering satan worshipper, and lay Catholics would still rest easy knowing "the gates of hell will not prevail"
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Athanasius
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ramblin_ag02 said:

XUSCR said:


But in the end, the gates of hell will not prevail.


This has the be the most incomprehensible thing to me as a non-Catholic. We could find out that the Pope and every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the entire RCC is a pedophile, kidnapping, murdering satan worshipper, and lay Catholics would still rest easy knowing "the gates of hell will not prevail"
Matthew 16:17-19 English Standard Version (ESV)

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock[a] I will build my church, and the gates of hell[b] shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[c] in heaven."
swimmerbabe11
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I think the point is that not anyone in the laity of the Roman Catholic Church (*tm) would take that as a sign that maybe just maybe, the RCC (*tm) doesn't actually hold the entire patent on Christianity.
Athanasius
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swimmerbabe11 said:

I think the point is that not anyone in the laity of the Roman Catholic Church (*tm) would take that as a sign that maybe just maybe, the RCC (*tm) doesn't actually hold the entire patent on Christianity.

Quote:

They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.


----St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5, AD 251.
Zobel
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Typical RCC mindless quote farming. That doesn't have anything to do with the claim that the bishop of Rome and those in communion with him is the sole criterion of the church. Quoting St Cyprian on this topic is ironic.
Athanasius
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k2aggie07 said:

Typical RCC mindless quote farming. That doesn't have anything to do with the claim that the bishop of Rome and those in communion with him is the sole criterion of the church. Quoting St Cyprian on this topic is ironic.
IF there is one Church, one Faith... THEN it speaks to what SB said above, that at least someone holds the 'patent' on Christianity.

The Universal Church teaches that all baptisms in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are in one faith, one Church.

The next point of conversation then is to either argue against that there is one Church, or discuss which one is the one Church.
747Ag
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swimmerbabe11 said:

I think the point is that not anyone in the laity of the Roman Catholic Church (*tm) would take that as a sign that maybe just maybe, the RCC (*tm) doesn't actually hold the entire patent on Christianity.
*Snort*

I would also say that the RCC doesn't actually hold the entire patent on pagan idols.



*Snort*
Zobel
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Even more ironic you don't see the irony.

There is one Church and one Faith but that doesn't mean one person holds the patent - aside from the One who does, who is Jesus Christ. The Prophet, the Teacher, the Priest, the Shepherd/Pastor. No one is arguing with this.

St Cyprian wouldn't argue with the premise of one Church. In fact, he would strongly endorse it - it is one of the central points of his writing. So strongly that he said that those baptized outside of the Church are not in the Church at all.

What's more, he believed this so strongly that he told the pope of Rome to get bent over it. Then he along with 87 bishops of Africa, Numidia, and Mauritania assembled at Carthage to reiterate the point.

At that council one bishop, Zosimus of Tharassa, dropped this little gem: "When a revelation of the truth is made, let error give place to truth; because Peter also, who previously circumcised, yielded to Paul when he preached the truth."

It always makes me chuckle when Roman Catholics quote St Cyprian on the presumption of papal authority - even moreso when they break out the heavily redacted quote from the letter of Fermilian to St Cyprian about Pope Stephen without realizing that it is a critique of Stephen's claim to authority by way of St Peter's chair, not an endorsement. Fermilian says by excommunicating, Stephen only excommunicates himself.
Zobel
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St Cyprian:
Quote:

The Lord says to Peter: "I say unto the that thou art Peter, etc..." He builds the Church upon one man. True, after the resurrection he assigned the like power to all apostles, saying "As the Father has sent me, etc..." Despite that, in order to make unity manifest, He arranged by His own authority that this unity should, from the start, take its beginning from one man. Certainly the rest of the apostles were exactly what Peter was; they were endowed with an equal share of office (honoris, honor) and power. But there was unity at the beginning before any development, to demonstrate the the Church of Christ is one....Can anyone who does not keep this unity of the Church believe that he keeps the faith? Can one who resists and struggles against the Church be sure that he is in the Church? For the blessed apostle Paul gives the same teaching and declares the same mystery of unity when he says: "There is one body and one Spirit, etc..."

It is particularly incumbent upon those of us who preside over the Church as bishops to uphold this unity firmly and to be its champions, so that we may prove the episcopate also to be itself one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood with lies or corrupt the true faith with faithless treachery. The episcopate is a single whole, in which each bishop's share gives him a right to, and a responsibility for, the whole. So is the Church a single whole, though she spreads far and wide into a multitude of churches as her fertility increases.
Zobel
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Lest my Protestant friends cheer too hard at St Cyprian's ecclesiology damaging the claims of Rome, here is a later excerpt that targets the invisible church theory just as sharply:
Quote:

Some deceive thesmelves with a vain interpretation of the words of the Lord: "wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, I am with them." Corrupters and false interpreters of the Gospel, they set down the last words and omit what precedes them, remembering one part and craftily suppressing the other. Themselves cut off from the Church, they cut up the sense of the passage which must be taken as a whole. The Lord was urging peace and unanimity upon his disciples. "I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that ye shall ask, it shall be done for you of my Father which is in heaven. For wheresoever two or three..." These words prove that much is given not to the mere number but to the unanimity of those who pray. "If two of you shall agree on earth," he says, putting unanimity and peaceful concord first, teaching us to agree firmly and loyally. But how can one man agree with another when he disagrees with the body of the Church itself, with the whole brotherhood? How can two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ when they are known to be separated from Christ and His Gospel? For we did not go out from them, but they from us. Heresies and schisms were born after the Church, as men set up separate conventicles to suit themselves. It is they who have abandoned the head and fount of truth.

The Lord's words were spoken about His own Church and addressed to members of the Church. If they are agreed, if, as He commanded, but two or three are gathered together and pray with one mind, then, althought they are but two or three, they can obtain from the divine majesty what they ask...So when He lays down with authority, "Where two or three are gathered, I am with them," He is not spearating men from the Church which he founded and created. Rebuking the faithless for their discord and with His own voice commending peace to the faithful, He shows that He is present with two or three praying with one mind rather than with a large number of dissidents, and that more can be obtained by the united prayer of a few than by the discordant petition of many.
Ordhound04
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I seem to remember priestly celibacy to be a "discipline" of the Church, rather than a "doctrine" of the Church.

#PersonalOrdinariateoftheChairofStPeter
#EasternRiteCatholicism
Athanasius
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But, you do agree, K2, that there is one Church.

That is my point, simply in response to SB above. The 'patent' is there. Now who has it is another discussion.
Zobel
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That doesn't have anything to do with what she said. She said the RCC laity would ignore any evidence to the contrary based on the claims the modern RCC makes to the throne of St Peter.
bluefire579
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I saw the word synod and was hoping for another papal exhumation
chimpanzee
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bluefire579 said:

I saw the word synod and was hoping for another papal exhumation
That has to be one of the weirdest historical events ever orchestrated.
Seamaster
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In summary. The Amazon Synod was worse than anybody imagined.

swimmerbabe11
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Can someone explain what this pagan tree business is?
747Ag
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Seamaste said:

In summary. The Amazon Synod was worse than anybody imagined.
Return fire:


747Ag
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Can someone explain what this pagan tree business is?
Here's a start: https://dwightlongenecker.com/why-that-naked-native-lady-statue-in-the-vatican-aint-catholic/

In short, there was a tree-planting ceremony in the Vatican gardens. The Pachamama idol figured prominently during said ceremony. Since then, this idol and the mandala have been popping up in many other places around Rome during the so-called Amazon Synod, including the meditation on the Stations of the Cross (Way of the Cross).

Some have tried to whitewash this statuary/figure as representative of the Blessed Virgin Mary (as well as Saint Elizabeth when two were present). Vatican officials or synod fathers stated that no, the Pachamama represents fertility, life, etc... Other ceremonies involving these idols, including those in the church Santa Maria of Transpontina fail to mention our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ or any "member" of the Trinity. Rather, a repetitive mantra of "all is connected" is most common.

Last night, several of these idols went for a swim in the Tiber.
Stasco
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Here's a tweet from a fairly heterodox Catholic commentator:



The responses give me hope for the Church!
c-jags
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Stasco said:

Here's a tweet from a fairly heterodox Catholic commentator:



The responses give me hope for the Church!


Not catholic, but good bull on that individual!
chimpanzee
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Not a good look for the Vatican here.

Nice succinct counterpoint made by whomever sent the idols downriver.
747Ag
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LOL @ Austen Ivereigh for continuing to insist that this graven image is Our Lady of the Amazon. He asked synod fathers directly, and they responded that it represented fertility, life, etc...
wbt5845
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747Ag said:

Seamaste said:

In summary. The Amazon Synod was worse than anybody imagined.
Return fire:



TSJ
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Coming from an outside perspective, what makes Our Lady of Guadalupe canon and Our Lady of Amazon heretical?
Stasco
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TSJ said:

Coming from an outside perspective, what makes Our Lady of Guadalupe canon and Our Lady of Amazon heretical?

Our Lady of Guadalupe represents an encounter between a Catholic peasant and the Virgin Mary, and was understood as such by all involved.

"Our Lady of the Amazon" is understood to be a fertility goddess who birthed the world, and is therefore a pagan idol.

HTH
747Ag
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Fertility statues...

SoulSlaveAG2005
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747Ag said:

Fertility statues...




At best this post was:
Not a Bot
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https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/pope-francis-women-deacons-amazon-synod.amp
Zobel
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Quote:

On Friday at the synod, Francis asked Amazonian bishops and local tribal leaders for forgiveness after indigenous statues were stolen from a Vatican-area church and thrown into a river. The pope insisted the wood-carved statues of naked pregnant women, known as Pachamama, were not a symbol of idolatry as conservatives had claimed, but rather were symbols of life, fertility and Mother Earth.


SoulSlaveAG2005
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k2aggie07 said:

Quote:

On Friday at the synod, Francis asked Amazonian bishops and local tribal leaders for forgiveness after indigenous statues were stolen from a Vatican-area church and thrown into a river. The pope insisted the wood-carved statues of naked pregnant women, known as Pachamama, were not a symbol of idolatry as conservatives had claimed, but rather were symbols of life, fertility and Mother Earth.






RAB91
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I don't pray for anything bad to happen to this pope, but when does he get to go home to Jesus?
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