Just curious what congregation they are? And if you do not want to answer on here I understand.

Her family is sort of anti trinitarian Hebrew roots messianic Judaism christianity hybrid. He's Lutheran.

They are still arguing on what theyll be when they get married. Her parents wont attend the wedding unless it is their guy. His family is conflicted.

My advice regarding her family/my family complaining about who officiates was "Put on your big boy panties, be a man, start figuring out what religion the two of you are going to be together, both of you convert one way or the other even if it means becoming Catholic, Muslim, or Scientologists.. because if you do it together and it's really your faith, it's more important than our families, you aren't doing it to make anyone happy, and no one will have a leg to stand on to tell you that you shouldn't get married by someone in your own faith."

If you are religious, and you don't reconcile religious differences with your spouse ahead of time, that sounds like a big problem hanging out there. If someone looks at their marriage as more separate and apart from their religion, I can't understand why they would bother.

For people that look at marriage apart from any religion, well, that's strikes me as a companionship contract secured by half of your stuff kicked off by a nice party with your friends.

I will pray that there is reconciliation and a clear smooth path made by God.

I would absolutely not be in the wedding party at a non Trinitarian wedding. It's one thing to be present, it's quite another to be a part of the ceremony.

For what it's worth this is also what I was told in a similar situation, as well as what a friend of mine was told, by different bishops.

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It's one thing to be present, it's quite another to be a part of the ceremony.

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Is it though? This feels like you are trying to take responsibility for something that you could never do anyway.

A marriage is a mystery of the a Church and takes place in that context. Even this is a religious, not a civil wedding. The person is being married by an officiant of another faith. Christians should not participate in faith services of other faiths.

Would you, for example, assist at the altar of a nonchrisitan faith service? Even if it's only holding a candle or standing next to the priest?

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A marriage is a mystery of the a Church and takes place in that context. Even this is a religious, not a civil wedding. The person is being married by an officiant of another faith. Christians should not participate in faith services of other faiths.

Would you, for example, assist at the altar of a nonchrisitan faith service? Even if it's only holding a candle or standing next to the priest?

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You are making the mistake of applying your definition and requirements of a wedding onto others.

Weddings/marriages have their own societal definitions that exist outside of the Christian context.

I don't think your example is analogous to the wedding party. Having been in several weddings, I have never been on one that had this request of me. The role of the wedding party is to offer support in a superficial role as a symbol of honor to the people getting married. This is the cultural norm at the moment.

To answer a follow up question in advance, I would not read from their Texts if asked...but I think this goes beyond the expectations of the social norm.

I'd stand as a witness / participate at a civil wedding. But not if the person was Christian and willfully going outside of the church. I would not participate in a wedding of another faith. That's the point you're not addressing. This is a faith based ceremony of another faith. Being up there makes you part of the ceremony, a participant, not someone watching. It's also a kind of endorsement.

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This is a faith based ceremony of another faith

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I have never been in or attending a wedding in which the wedding party was indoctrinated or accepted indoctrination into the faith the wedding service is in.

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Being up there makes you part of the ceremony, a participant, not someone watching. It's also a kind of endorsement.

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What weddings have you been to? You are absolutely just someone watching. You just have a special seat. It is not an endorsement of any kind. Should I have done premartial counseling with friends of who thought high enough of me to have me stand in their weddings?

to me, there are two different outlooks on the role of being in the bridal party and on being in the wedding itself.

I have been told at a rehearsal that my standing up there was a commitment to the bride and groom, that I would support and pray for their marriage throughout their lives. I have also before told my friend that if she ever married a specific dude, that I wouldn't be able to stand at her wedding and pretend like I thought it was a good idea..being there is basically an approval of the union...little different situation since she was terrible to the guy and they weren't even engaged yet.. but still. I'll be standing in her wedding to a different guy soon enough.

My thought as far as the ceremony goes.. the groom considers marriage a sacrament and considers communion sacred.. he wouldn't take communion from this guy officiating.. so why would he let him perform a sacrament? The guy detests our faith. If I consider marriage a sacrament, how am I gonna stand up there and endorse this guy's words, when I think he is just as heretical as he thinks I am?

I mean, I'm buying my dress tomorrow. I'm committed. I just found out who was officiating this weekend. He had been avoiding telling us, because when they first postponed.. that was the hill he would die on.

In general "high church" Christians should probably only marry within their own faith practice. To do otherwise is just setting yourself up for life long difficulties at best.

I speak from experience. I've grown to hate Sundays.

I have honestly never been in a situation like that where the officiant is actively anti Trinitarian Christian. Sounds like a ton of unnecessary drama that they are asking you to participate in. I see your brother's point. Will pray for y'all.

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I have been told at a rehearsal that my standing up there was a commitment to the bride and groom, that I would support and pray for their marriage throughout their lives. I have also before told my friend that if she ever married a specific dude, that I wouldn't be able to stand at her wedding and pretend like I thought it was a good idea..being there is basically an approval of the union...little different situation since she was terrible to the guy and they weren't even engaged yet.. but still. I'll be standing in her wedding to a different guy soon enough.

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This sounds more like you feel guilty that you have gone against what you previously said and it's an integrity concern, no?

Secondly, it depends on who told you about the commitment to the bridge and groom. If the bride/groom say that standing in the wedding means certain things that you are unwilling to do, then you know what you have to do. If its some crazy uncle who is living the past or something, then I would disregard that.

Else, I don't see the issue. I mean, would you not pray for a couple, even if you didn't approve of their union? I would hope so.

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I have never been in or attending a wedding in which the wedding party was indoctrinated or accepted indoctrination into the faith the wedding service is in. What weddings have you been to? You are absolutely just someone watching. You just have a special seat. It is not an endorsement of any kind. Should I have done premartial counseling with friends of who thought high enough of me to have me stand in their weddings?

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I didn't say that the wedding party is indoctrinated into the faith, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

It's not an endorsement?? I think this is wishful thinking on your part.

Would you attend a black mass? Would you stand at the altar?
Would you attend a pagan fertility rite? Would you stand up front with the participants?
Would you go to a KKK rally? Stand next to the speaker?

It isn't difficult to say that there are kind of two levels of endorsement or approval of any activity - merely being in attendance, and being a participant in the ceremony. Are there levels of participation? Of course. It's one thing to be the bride, another to be a groomsman, or a singer, and another to be the officiant.

I think you are viewing this from a completely different approach than I am. Yes, obviously there is a pseudo-secular form of marriage practiced routinely in this country. Our cultural marriage practices are derived from Christian practice. People still make a nod to this by having a priest or minister, saying prayers, reading a scripture, whatever. I can't judge the hearts or faith of people who do that in an external fashion only. But whether they do it externally or not, if they have this type of ceremony they are still invoking God, they are still participating in a faith-based ritual. It has to be viewed on these grounds.

If people want to have an entirely secular union (marriage), they are welcome to that of course. But if they're going to frame their marriage within the context of a religion, it becomes a religious ceremony, a religious act. I cannot in good conscience participate in that religious ceremony because I am a Christian. I don't participate in ceremonies of other faiths.

The Church Canons prohibit Christians from praying with heretics, in Jewish synagogues, or with schismatics (Canon 64 of Apostolic Canons, Canon 9 and 33 of Council of Laodicia, etc). This isn't triumphalism or a way to show disdain or disrespect for other's traditions or beliefs. It is a confession of faith in and of itself. Participating in joint prayer, or by extension any religious ceremony, falsely equates or legitimizes that act to one performed by the Christian faith. We also separate from them because of our understanding of common worship, common prayer. As St Paul says, when we worship, we worship with one mouth (Romans 6:6), one spirit, one mind (Phil 1:27). This kind of Christian unity of mind, Spirit, Faith, practice is everywhere in the NT.

St Maximos said, when the people in Babylon were worshiping the idol, the Three Holy Youths didn't condemn anyone or worry about what other did, but took care for their own conscience. So we do not condemn, but when it comes to these type of things we should abstain - for ourselves and for others.

I have no problem attending a service, though, as an act of love and respect for family and friends. But there's no way I would extend this to participation - in any way - in any non-Trinitarian ceremony. This would include mutual prayers, reading or speaking, or being involved physically or mentally with the ceremony itself.

Blue star.

Question for you, in my office I offer prayer to a lot of my patients including Jewish patients. They know I am a Christian and yet never refuse my prayers. I am not in a synagogue. Am I in the wrong here?

dermdoc said:

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Blue star.

Question for you, in my office I offer prayer to a lot of my patients including Jewish patients. They know I am a Christian and yet never refuse my prayers. I am not in a synagogue. Am I in the wrong here?

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No, I don't think at so at all. We're supposed to pray for all people (1 Timothy 2:1 ). The difference I think is one of drawing an equivalence. For example, if a person asks to pray with you, and you pray to God, then they pray to Vishnu, I would say that's a bit of an issue. But if you're praying and they're joining you, man - what could be better? They can pray with us, we can't pray with them, if that makes sense.

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I didn't say that the wedding party is indoctrinated into the faith, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

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Then what's the problem with standing in a line next to a bride and groom if there's no requirement of joining or agreeing with said faith of the service?

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It's not an endorsement?? I think this is wishful thinking on your part.

Would you attend a black mass? Would you stand at the altar?
Would you attend a pagan fertility rite? Would you stand up front with the participants?
Would you go to a KKK rally? Stand next to the speaker?

It isn't difficult to say that there are kind of two levels of endorsement or approval of any activity - merely being in attendance, and being a participant in the ceremony. Are there levels of participation? Of course. It's one thing to be the bride, another to be a groomsman, or a singer, and another to be the officiant.

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I'm sorry, I usually love your commentary on various topics but I cannot follow you here. Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark as what's expected in a wedding and you're adding parameters that change the discussion (as in there are actions associated with each of those that I would be opposed to).

It's also incorrect to assume that standing next to some speaker in those events is akin to a wedding. A wedding is a cultural event that has people standing there as 2 people do their own thing. It's a formality at this stage that is really only a symbol of meaning to that couple. No one looks at the wedding party and says "yep, they are all endorse that faith" if they have a faith leader perform the wedding. They say "those are family or close friends or whatever".

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Then what's the problem with standing in a line next to a bride and groom if there's no requirement of joining or agreeing with said faith of the service?

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Because as I've said, by being at the front you are an active participant in the wedding.

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I'm sorry, I usually love your commentary on various topics but I cannot follow you here. Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark as what's expected in a wedding and you're adding parameters that change the discussion (as in there are actions associated with each of those that I would be opposed to).

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What do you mean? Weddings often happen at churches or other religious buildings. They often take place before altars. What is the qualitative difference between a Hindu wedding and a Satanic one, in the binary sense that neither are Christian? One offends you and the other doesn't? One seems extra-bad?

The point I'm making is that by merely being in attendance you're offering a kind of tacit approval. But that changes entirely by standing front and center during the proceedings.

I didn't say you were expected to do anything other than stand at the front in any example. A friend invites you to a special satanic mass, and asks that you - as his best friend - stand with him. Do you go? Different best friend, asks you to stand next to him while he gets a pagan blessing. Do you? Third friend, when he joins the KKK. Do you? Ok, maybe you object to the KKK on practical and non-religious grounds, but what's the harm in the other two other than simply religious disagreement?

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It's also incorrect to assume that standing next to some speaker in those events is akin to a wedding. A wedding is a cultural event that has people standing there as 2 people do their own thing. It's a formality at this stage that is really only a symbol of meaning to that couple. No one looks at the wedding party and says "yep, they are all endorse that faith" if they have a faith leader perform the wedding. They say "those are family or close friends or whatever".

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Ya, this is the point where I say we're coming at it from different angles. It is a cultural event, sure - anything that happens within a culture, done a certain way because of that culture, is a cultural event. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a religious event as well.

Do you think the priest or minister thinks it is exclusively cultural? Do you think that minister or priest would serve a secular wedding, or the wedding of another faith? Do you think the people in the audience say - "yep, that minister endorses that faith"? Of course they do - and probably they think the same of the bride, and the groom! If it is only cultural, how can this be? Because it isn't only cultural, unless it's explicitly secular (i.e., no faith aspect to it).

All I can add is that this thread just makes me even more sure that God put me and my wife together. Our theology is exactly alike. We both love the Lord and think marriage is a sacred covenant that can not be dissolved by man. And we are both Aggies.

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The point I'm making is that by merely being in attendance you're offering a kind of tacit approval. But that changes entirely by standing front and center during the proceedings.

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I feel like you are making some sort of logical conclusion here that is devoid of the actual cultural context of a wedding.

I will repeat: Being in a wedding party or even attending a wedding is not approval of anything religious in anyway. Culture has co-opted weddings. Everyone - religious or not - think that that the wedding party are family or close personal friends to the bridge/groom. No one is saying "oh, I thought K2 was Christian? Turns out he's Buddist. Who knew." In 99.999% of weddings, they just stand there.

Obviously, if there is a further ask that does get into what they feel about beliefs, like reading a passage or something like this...then I agree with you. But this is not your objection.

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Do you think the priest or minister thinks it is exclusively cultural? Do you think that minister or priest would serve a secular wedding, or the wedding of another faith? Do you think the people in the audience say - "yep, that minister endorses that faith"? Of course they do - and probably they think the same of the bride, and the groom! If it is only cultural, how can this be? Because it isn't only cultural, unless it's explicitly secular (i.e., no faith aspect to it).

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It doesn't matter what the officiant thinks the event is. It's what society expects the event to be. Of course a minister endorses the faith - they are literally talking/teaching about it. And of course, the couple will be of the same faith...it's their wedding, they chose it. This isn't the great "gotcha" you think it is...

The counterexample to this is when people do "interfaith" services where they have a priest and a rabbi. No one expects the priest to be Jewish and no one expects the rabbi to be Christian. Everyone in the audience knows they don't agree with the other's position.

Society's expectations are irrelevant. Just because society in general acts as if weddings are secular even if they're performed by a minister doesn't make them so. Just like if society decided if Holy Communion is secular.

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The counterexample to this is when people do "interfaith" services where they have a priest and a rabbi. No one expects the priest to be Jewish and no one expects the rabbi to be Christian. Everyone in the audience knows they don't agree with the other's position.

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This should never happen, on the Christian's part, for all the reasons I outlined above.

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Society's expectations are irrelevant. Just because society in general acts as if weddings are secular even if they're performed by a minister doesn't make them so. Just like if society decided if Holy Communion is secular.

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No, they absolutely are relevant. You are taking your stance because you think society perceives you as accepting/endorsing of that faith. You already know you don't endorse that faith. So, why take your stance if you weren't concerned about what others thought?

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This should never happen, on the Christian's part, for all the reasons I outlined above.

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This is irrelevant. My usage of interfaith ceremony is only an example of how people don't think about weddings like you think about weddings.

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No, they absolutely are relevant. You are taking your stance because you think society perceives you as accepting/endorsing of that faith. You already know you don't endorse that faith. So, why take your stance if you weren't concerned about what others thought?

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External perception is only part of it. I won't participate in the ceremony. Just like I wouldn't participate in a pagan fertility rite, however harmless it may seem. Being up there is both an endorsement and participation. That's my conscience. I'm not suggesting anyone else has to follow what I'm saying.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Would you stand next to your best friend at some kind of (benign) satanic ritual? Or a pagan ceremony? Why or why not?

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people don't think about weddings like you think about weddings

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Yes, clearly. That's kind of the point, don't you think? Just because others believe what they're doing is secular and non-religious doesn't make it so.

If I weren't at least somewhat concerned about it.. I wouldn't have asked. This is a super controversial thing in my family.

I absolutely won't remotely consider praying with the man officiating or participating if there is any part of the ceremony that includes such a thing. All I know is that they have to have a Chuppah.

I wouldn't lose as much sleep over it if this was anyone else.

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External perception is only part of it. I won't participate in the ceremony. Just like I wouldn't participate in a pagan fertility rite, however harmless it may seem. Being up there is both an endorsement and participation. That's my conscience. I'm not suggesting anyone else has to follow what I'm saying.

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What's driving your internal choice then? I mean, you've fully committed to this "Being up there is both an endorsement and participation" concept. Why? Especially in this specific case in which it doesn't apply.

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You didn't answer any of my questions. Would you stand next to your best friend at some kind of (benign) satanic ritual? Or a pagan ceremony? Why or why not?

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Since you say benign, I would say of course I would. Obviously, "benign" is up to interpretation. But, to use a more realistic scenario...say it's a pagan ceremony full of imagery about circle of life, Earth Mother, new life,etc...I would still. Now, if they said, "now lets pray to the universe....", I would not bow my head to show prayer.

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I wouldn't lose as much sleep over it if this was anyone else.

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On your exact situation, I don't believe anyone is. Personally, I am interested because actions like this are tangible expression as to how unloving Christians are.

I fully get where K2 is coming from. I certainly wouldn't advocate participating in any level to a ritual of another faith. I just think that weddings really aren't as religious as everyone wants them to be and we can do immeasureable harm by making it more than it is.

You don't think anyone is losing sleep? This is a huge deal for both of our families. Her family thinks we are pagan and won't let her partake in a Christian trinitarian ritual/sacrament. We think that they are heretical and not Christian and don't think he should make vows before a god that he doesn't believe in. Weddings are a marriage sacrament.

Endorsement of the marriage and the ceremony are pretty unstable on both sides. My main concern is him knowing that after the wedding is done and over with, I will love and support them in their marriage and welcome her into my family.

Maybe I don't understand what you meant.

diehard03 said:

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I wouldn't lose as much sleep over it if this was anyone else.

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On your exact situation, I don't believe anyone is. Personally, I am interested because actions like this are tangible expression as to how unloving Christians are.

I fully get where K2 is coming from. I certainly wouldn't advocate participating in any level to a ritual of another faith. I just think that weddings really aren't as religious as everyone wants them to be and we can do immeasureable harm by making it more than it is.

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Perhaps it is worth revisiting God's view of weddings and marriage and His perception about our participation instead of deferring to cultural expectations. Are we set apart or aren't we?

Love is not all inclusive and all permissive that we may do as we please. This argument of being loving is precisely how open communion with non-believers is being advanced despite what the Bible says about it. God's definition of love is what matters, not the world's perception.

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You don't think anyone is losing sleep? This is a huge deal for both of our families. Her family thinks we are pagan and won't let her partake in a Christian trinitarian ritual/sacrament. We think that they are heretical and not Christian and don't think he should make vows before a god that he doesn't believe in. Weddings are a marriage sacrament.

Endorsement of the marriage and the ceremony are pretty unstable on both sides. My main concern is him knowing that after the wedding is done and over with, I will love and support them in their marriage and welcome her into my family.

Maybe I don't understand what you meant.

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Yeah, that's my bad. I interpretted you as meaning "don't lose any sleep over this". My apologies.

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Perhaps it is worth revisiting God's view of weddings and marriage and His perception about our participation instead of deferring to cultural expectations. Are we set apart or aren't we?

Love is not all inclusive and all permissive that we may do as we please. This argument of being loving is precisely how open communion with non-believers is being advanced despite what the Bible says about it. God's definition of love is what matters, not the world's perception.

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Society has co-opted marriage into it's own definition. It's not right or fair to demand that others accept our definition of marriage. I would argue that we are being "set apart" by honoring our friends and showing them the love Christ demands of us.

I am certainly not advocating open communion for non-believers. Not everything is a slippery slope.

Does it change if it is your child or immediate family?

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Does it change if it is your child or immediate family?

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No.

diehard03 said:

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Perhaps it is worth revisiting God's view of weddings and marriage and His perception about our participation instead of deferring to cultural expectations. Are we set apart or aren't we?

Love is not all inclusive and all permissive that we may do as we please. This argument of being loving is precisely how open communion with non-believers is being advanced despite what the Bible says about it. God's definition of love is what matters, not the world's perception.

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Society has co-opted marriage into it's own definition. It's not right or fair to demand that others accept our definition of marriage. I would argue that we are being "set apart" by honoring our friends and showing them the love Christ demands of us.

I am certainly not advocating open communion for non-believers. Not everything is a slippery slope.

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That's an odd position to me. That God has defined marriage, that we have an example of what it should look like, and to then punt by claiming it's about what is fair and right to those that don't believe. If you know what is good and right and you fail to observe or encourage it, are you loving? Why would you concede something just because the secular world views it differently? God is part of the union, it is what He has brought together. How is it not an inherently religious ceremony?

I'm not saying you're for open communion, simply stating the idea of being 'loving' is what some pastors and priests are using to contradict actual biblical teaching. So I ask the same here, are you using the idea of being 'loving' to support that which is against what is right and should be done? Let's say one of your kids is gay and it's a same sex wedding? Forget pagan rituals, that is more realistic.