Catholic Wedding Ceremony Outside of the Church - Question

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Dad-O-Lot
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In reply to Zobel • 7:51a, 7/17/19
AG
k2aggie07 said:
I'm not sure what a secular celebration is unless you're just talking about a reception.

But you initially said - nice wedding at a venue she likes, with validation in the church. I personally don't think that's the way to go. That's more what I was talking about. Get married in the church, then have the reception wherever.... but that's pretty typical anyway.
My point is that what is important is not the location, the crowd, or the party, but the marriage.

It does not have to be elaborate.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating the sacrament with an understated ceremony at a Mass.

"The show" isn't the important part and the important part doesn't have to be the showy part.
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Zobel
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8:34a, 7/17/19
AG
I'm not trying to argue, only trying to put things in perspective I suppose.

If you're talking about a showy wedding separate from the church rite, I gotta say that makes no sense to me. That's kind of like dressing up and playing pretend, if you don't believe that the marriage is valid apart from the church. It doesn't make any sense to do. Have a big showy party, sure.

I don't think the idea of having the church validate your marriage is supposed to be used so you can have the wedding of your (spouse's or spouse's family's) dreams apart from the church.

If you say the important part doesn't have to be the show, then why do the show? I think the case of a JP or something is quite different, for what it's worth. I guess it's about the reason for having two separate things.

It's kind of a baffling to me. Can you imagine having a "show" related to a baptism, maybe even with another pastor of another faith, then quietly validating the baptism at the church later?
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powerbelly
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9:12a, 7/17/19
AG

Quote:
Given the circumstances and her family background, she has expressed that she would prefer to have the wedding ceremony at a wedding venue as opposed to the Church so that it would make the situation more comfortable for her family.
Her family sounds insane.
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Dad-O-Lot
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In reply to Zobel • 10:57a, 7/17/19
AG
k2aggie07 said:
I'm not trying to argue, only trying to put things in perspective I suppose.

If you're talking about a showy wedding separate from the church rite, I gotta say that makes no sense to me. That's kind of like dressing up and playing pretend, if you don't believe that the marriage is valid apart from the church. It doesn't make any sense to do. Have a big showy party, sure.

I don't think the idea of having the church validate your marriage is supposed to be used so you can have the wedding of your (spouse's or spouse's family's) dreams apart from the church.

If you say the important part doesn't have to be the show, then why do the show? I think the case of a JP or something is quite different, for what it's worth. I guess it's about the reason for having two separate things.

It's kind of a baffling to me. Can you imagine having a "show" related to a baptism, maybe even with another pastor of another faith, then quietly validating the baptism at the church later?
no argument.

It just depends on what the couple want. If they want a ceremony in a specific venue, but the Catholic Church won't do it there, then this would be a way to have both.

The Sacraments of Baptism and Marriage are not comparable.

For Marriage, the couple confers the sacrament on each other.

For Baptism, the Priest confers the sacrament.

This is why the conferring of the Sacrament on a couple already Civilly married is called a "validation". It "validates" the Sacrament conferred on the couple by each other.

People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
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Frok
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11:34a, 7/17/19
AG
I can tell which posters on this thread are the family members who will not attend your wedding if it doesn't meet their expectations.

Seriously, do what is best for the two of you. If your wife requested a wedding venue then honestly that is what I would do.
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Zobel
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In reply to Dad-O-Lot • 12:49p, 7/17/19
AG
It seems to be a little more complicated than that.

This was quite interesting for me to read as a non-catholic. Looks like he'll have to get permission from the bishop.

http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/01/28/does-a-catholic-wedding-have-to-be-held-in-a-catholic-church/
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Dad-O-Lot
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In reply to Zobel • 1:34p, 7/17/19
AG
k2aggie07 said:
It seems to be a little more complicated than that.

This was quite interesting for me to read as a non-catholic. Looks like he'll have to get permission from the bishop.

http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/01/28/does-a-catholic-wedding-have-to-be-held-in-a-catholic-church/
Yes, to have a Catholic Wedding outside of a Catholic Church does require a Bishop's permission. That is the whole point of considering having two different ceremonies.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
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Zobel
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In reply to Dad-O-Lot • 2:09p, 7/17/19
AG
"Two ceremonies" is what keeps confusing me. I don't think the Roman Catholic church recognizes "two ceremonies". A Catholic has to get permission to marry a non-catholic Christian or a non-Christian. And, separately, it seems you need to get permission as a Catholic to be married in a nonstandard way - the canonical standard being married in your parish church, by your parish priest.

I'm way over my skis here but it seems to me the permission is for licitness of the marriage, but not the validity.

If a person is married by a valid marriage they're married, just like if you're validly baptized you're baptized. The validation is affirming or confirming that you're already married. I don't believe it is correct to say the validation is sacramental at all.
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Serotonin
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In reply to powerbelly • 2:25p, 7/17/19
AG
powerbelly said:

Quote:
Given the circumstances and her family background, she has expressed that she would prefer to have the wedding ceremony at a wedding venue as opposed to the Church so that it would make the situation more comfortable for her family.
Her family sounds insane.
What's insane about that? Her family is Baptist, so by default they will be complete outsiders at their own daughter's wedding in a Catholic church or cathedral. I've seen it multiple times with Protestant buddies who married Catholic wives.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with k2's view on the importance of starting this the right way and getting married in that venue. After all, if you punt here then what happens when your kid gets baptized, or takes their first communion, etc.

My point is that it is better to understand their perspective, understand that it's a shift in thinking, but take a positive and proactive approach upfront and let them have control of the rest of the process (the non-essentials). This lets them have their own stamp on the wedding while allowing for the marriage sacrament to be properly celebrated by a priest in a church.
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powerbelly
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In reply to Serotonin • 2:33p, 7/17/19
AG
It is insane that someone would be so uncomfortable in a catholic church that the bride and groom are considering moving the wedding location.
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Dad-O-Lot
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In reply to Zobel • 2:54p, 7/17/19
AG
k2aggie07 said:
"Two ceremonies" is what keeps confusing me. I don't think the Roman Catholic church recognizes "two ceremonies". A Catholic has to get permission to marry a non-catholic Christian or a non-Christian. And, separately, it seems you need to get permission as a Catholic to be married in a nonstandard way - the canonical standard being married in your parish church, by your parish priest.

I'm way over my skis here but it seems to me the permission is for licitness of the marriage, but not the validity.

If a person is married by a valid marriage they're married, just like if you're validly baptized you're baptized. The validation is affirming or confirming that you're already married. I don't believe it is correct to say the validation is sacramental at all.
I don't disagree at all.

If the Catholic wedding happens first, any additional ceremonies are irrelevant to the Church.

If a civil wedding happens first, then it is up to the Church whether or not to validate the marriage with a Catholic Sacramental wedding.

For a little more detail on my experience.

We were allowed to Baptize our children in the Catholic Church even though our marriage had not yet been validated in the Church.

We had been married (civilly) for less than a year and planned a Catholic wedding. We were both students and we had one child. We went through Pre-Cana classes and completed extensive testing. The Lay Minister responsible for our marriage preparation determined that in her opinion we were unlikely to remain married. She then recommended to our Pastor that he not marry us. He accepted her recommendation. We had to cancel invitations and explain to family and friends that our Catholic Wedding was not going to happen as planned.

Fast Forward 6 years. We have graduated, moved, and now had 4 children. We were active in our local parish and all of our children had been baptized. We approached our Pastor about having our marriage validated in the Church. He accepted without reservation and we finally had our "Catholic Wedding" during a Saturday Mass.

Over the years, we have had several opportunities to "Renew our Vows", so we talk about having been married 6 different times.
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Zobel
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In reply to Dad-O-Lot • 3:45p, 7/17/19
AG
I get you. I think what's confusing me is the word validation. Because they're not pronouncing the previous marriage valid or validating it post-facto - in the eyes of the RC Church, you were never in holy matrimony at all, and now you are. The ceremony you had was not valid, so you are now married for the first time with a valid form. This is the same as if someone baptizes someone in an invalid from - without the name of the Trinity, using something other than water, whatever. The Church would baptize you for the first time...they don't recognize your previous baptism as valid. For both - it was either valid, in which case you have no need for any additional step, or it was invalid, in which case you never were in matrimony / baptized.

On the other hand, if you come into the RCC as a married Christian and your previous Christian community recognized your marriage as valid, the RCC does as well. And if you were married civilly out side the church (i.e., invalid) but entered the church by baptism, your marriage automatically becomes matrimony and sacramental. Like magic!

This whole thing kind of makes my head hurt, to be honest. It sort of seems to me that the RCC has a huge overstep in tying the form of the sacrament of matrimony to being witnessed by an RCC clergyman. They don't require this for baptism - there the form is based on what is done, not strictly on does it. It would seem to me that if all the requirements are met (consent, intent, witnessed) and you're a Christian, you were married and in matrimony. But I am no theologian.
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Quad Dog
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In reply to Dad-O-Lot • 3:49p, 7/17/19
AG
Purely curiosity, and I understand if it is to personal to answer: but in the eyes of the church where you technically "living in sin" during that time even if civilly married?
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Dad-O-Lot
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In reply to Quad Dog • 5:19p, 7/17/19
AG
Quad Dog said:
Purely curiosity, and I understand if it is to personal to answer: but in the eyes of the church where you technically "living in sin" during that time even if civilly married?
I don't know for certain. I don't think so. While so much of what is considered sin or not sounds very prescriptive, there is leeway based on having a "well-formed conscience". It is very easy to become very legalistic especially with a religion that has been around so long. Jesus himself noted this in his statements regarding the Pharisees. Per my conscience, we had made a promise to God and to ourselves in front of Civil Authority pledging ourselves to each other. We made a good faith effort to follow the Church's prescription to validate our marriage shortly after the Civil marriage but a representative of the Church would not let us complete it.

None of the Priests we ever talked to about it considered us to be "living in sin". We were never asked to "live as brother and sister for a time".

I've never checked any Canonical documents about it.

The one thing that really bothered me about that whole situation was that we were already married Civilly, we already had a child, and this Church Social Worker decided that we were unlikely to remain married so we should not have a Sacramental, Catholic Wedding. We were not offered any support or counseling to work through or overcome whatever problems she saw in our relationship. We were just told, "no" and sent on our way. What I have learned through this is that there is inconsistency between Dioceses and even Parishes regarding acceptance and assistance of couples in non-standard marriage situations.

and just for context: we have now been married for over 30 years and have 10 children.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
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TexasAggie73
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8:02p, 7/17/19
AG
In my first marriage, my wife's father was Catholic who went to Mass every Sunday evening. My wife and her mother went to a Methodist service most of the time. I went to a Lutheran Chuch,ELCA, for our small service at my church we had a Lutheran minister and a priest perform the ceremony. Having the priest was not a requirement, but I arranged it to honor my father in law. Was not even sure the priest would be there till he showed up.
PS. my minister was sick or drunk not sure which, so a Missouri Synod minister substituted.
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Quad Dog
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9:19a, 7/18/19
AG
That's an interesting decision made by the Church Social Worker and church. They were faced with option A) deny a couple's request for a church wedding and allow them to continue having sex outside of a church wedding (you had a kid) and option B) allow them to get married when you think that a divorce could happen. They basically decided that divorce is a worse sin than sex outside of church marriage. Especially considering that most couples response to a church rejecting them would be to reject the church right back, and maybe even religion entirely.

I keep using the phrase "church wedding" because I'm not smart enough to know either if the civil marriage matters for the Christian rules around marriage, but I think it would.
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swimmerbabe11
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10:49a, 7/18/19
I have been avoiding posting for my own emotional sanity for a while, but this thread is insane on so many levels and I have been/am in similar situations so it has been an interesting lurk..but..

A) MQB's joke was just a joke, it was funny, and judging from posts on this very thread..yall didn't like it because it hit too close to home. This board has thicker skin than a lighthearted joke and I'm a little disappointed in y'all.

B) OP, I highly suggest that she start going through RCIA before y'all get married. Don't put it off. For so many reasons. You want her to convert because she really believes in the Catholic faith...not just to appease you. I say this from experience. There will always be a reason to put off going through catechism. She needs to fully understand what faith she is marrying into. Besides, also knowing from experience, its probably not the Catholic ceremony that is bothering them, it is that they are worried about their daughter becoming gasp! a papist. She needs to be up front about how she is going to live in this marriage...not avoiding it so that her parents will pay for something that they don't actually think is good for her soul. If you both are Catholic when you are popping the question, it will be a no brainer that yall will want a Catholic wedding.

She should be doing RCIA because she feels convicted to..not just because it is a hoop she has to jump through to marry you. She should tell her parents that she is going to convert. Then you pop the question, then you get your Catholic booties to the priest. If that means you spend a little less on the dinner, no one remembers that anyway. Just make sure you don't settle when she's choosing her dress

C) holy moly I am absolutely dumbfounded by some of the responses on this thread. I'm fairly certain if MQB hurt your feelings, my responses would get me banned.
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diehard03
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4:17p, 7/18/19
Quote:
It is insane that someone would be so uncomfortable in a catholic church that the bride and groom are considering moving the wedding location.

Everyone's home always feel different and everyone involved in a wedding has some of vision of what they expected it to be like. I'm not saying their view is right, but I don't think someone is wrong for considering someone else's feelings in the matter.
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Frok
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4:44p, 7/18/19
AG
Now I really want to know what MQB posted.
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PabloSerna
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9:47p, 7/18/19
AG
The Catholic Church views the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony as a "covenant". I don't think many other Christian denominations see it this way. In other words - it has your salvation in mind.

A point to make to non-Catholics is that this is the only sacrament not performed by the clergy. Don't make the mistake into thinking that the RCC is trying to control something. They are actually making sure the two person (one male, one female) FULLY understand - "...what God has joined, let no man break apart."

So, yes - they take this event super serious and unless someone here knows canon law or sits on a marriage tribunal - I don't think you will get an answer that makes a ton of sense.

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JoeAggie5
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12:27p, 7/19/19
OP my SIL and her husband are both Catholic, but none of their wedding party and some of the family members weren't Catholic.

They had the ceremony in a Catholic Church, officiated by a Priest, but none of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. So just:

Introductory Rites
Liturgy of the Word
Celebration of Matrimony
Concluding Rites

Resulted in about a 30-45 minute service and blessing by the Church without a lot of jumping through hoops/approvals.

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dermdoc
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 12:47p, 7/19/19
AG
I thought what MQB posted was funny also. And I always enjoy Calvinists exhibiting a sense of humor.
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cavscout96
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In reply to Quad Dog • 3:46p, 7/22/19
AG
Quad Dog said:
To give another opinion: You are marrying her, and her whole family. You'll have to see them for the rest of your life whether you want to or not. You may have to make concessions and do two ceremonies. Part of being married is doing things you are indifferent about to make your spouse happy
We all know families that have cut out other family members for many reasons, often it is over religion. If you put your foot down on a catholic ceremony, then you run the risk of her Baptist family cutting her out and not attending the ceremony (it happens). Why start your marriage together with that kind of stress? Why put your fiance in the position of choosing between you and her family? I have a buddy who's parents didn't attend his wedding for stupid reasons and it is a constant strain on their marriage. Most of the time it seems to an outsider like they are together to spite his parents and prove them wrong.
If your religion is important enough to you to run the above risk, then go for it. But do it knowing the possible consequences.
pretty simple.... 1+1 = 2 = 1

"two become one....."

you are not marrying her family. you are marrying her. if she doesn't want to be with you because she is concerned about her family more, then you probably shouldn't be getting married.
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HDeathstar
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1:11p, 7/23/19
Marry in the Church, you will not regret it. Best if it was the one you will be attending after the wedding. Sentimental reasons.

Married a Baptist. Their knowledge of Catholics seem to come from the middle ages and the Inquisition time periods, it seems. I got lucky. I was going to a very pretty Catholic Church, and when her church could not meet all the wedding dates, my church was available and made for a great backdrop. Had a mid day service, so all the Catholics would not get all "drunk" at the reception.

Her parents warmed up, but she would not go through RICA until her grandparents died. She is a strong Catholic now.
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diehard03
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1:26p, 7/23/19
Quote:
Their knowledge of Catholics seem to come from the middle ages and the Inquisition time periods, it seems.

Catholicism has a very strong cultural component and there are many people who ascribe to be Catholic that in no way know or follow their tenets. I have found that many non-Catholic people get their information from them.
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diehard03
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1:31p, 7/23/19
Quote:
you are not marrying her family. you are marrying her. if she doesn't want to be with you because she is concerned about her family more, then you probably shouldn't be getting married.

I think you're missing for the forest for the trees. Having a wife whos concerned about the feelings of others AND has a strong enough sense of family to hold these things dear is a very good thing.

Personally, I'd be more concerned if she was just disposing of her family and their concerns without a care.
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Quad Dog
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In reply to diehard03 • 2:05p, 7/23/19
AG
That's what I was trying to say. With a little effort, and maybe doing some things you aren't completely jazzed about, means that maybe you can do both things.

You guys make it seems like "two become one....." eliminates everything else, especially "Honor your father and your mother"
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Zobel
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In reply to Quad Dog • 2:10p, 7/23/19
AG
From my angle there are things you compromise for and things you don't. Where to have Thanksgiving? Do you open presents on Christmas Eve? Whatever, who cares.

Where and how you get married, whether there are beans in chili, whether or not you baptize your kids..these things you just kind of have to take a gentle, loving, firm stance. It's not about the feelings of others at that point, it's about things that really matter versus people meddling where they shouldn't. It's not their wedding.
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cavscout96
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In reply to Quad Dog • 12:51a, 8/2/19
AG
Quad Dog said:
That's what I was trying to say. With a little effort, and maybe doing some things you aren't completely jazzed about, means that maybe you can do both things.

You guys make it seems like "two become one....." eliminates everything else, especially "Honor your father and your mother"



GEN 2:24 For this reason a man shall LEAVE his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."
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cavscout96
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In reply to Quad Dog • 1:07a, 8/2/19
AG
See K2's post.

Bottom line, she wants to be your wife, or she doesn't. Some things are simply non-negotiable.

What about a Jewish - Christian wedding, or a non-beliver and a Christian? What if the fiance is a Christian and the parents are non believers? What if the fiance had converted from Judeaism to Christianity?

Where do the concessions end?

Get married in church, before God; Otherwise, you're essentially just playing house and making a compromise with one of the biggest commitments of your life.

If you are a committed Catholic, and you expect your spouse to hold the same beliefs and raise your family in accordance with them, get married in a Catholic ceremony at a Catholic church.

If you are NOT committed to Catholicism, get married in her church, but don't expect her to raise your family in the Catholic tradition.

Sort this out now. If you don't, it will come back around multiple times to be a colossal pain. For instance, are your future in laws going to refuse to attend their grandchildren's baptisms as infants? Will they consider them not or less "saved." Is this going to be an issue at every turn, communion, confession, confirmation. Will they have to leave their Rosary at home when they visit her folks?

Etc., etc., etc....
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dcAg
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3:18p, 8/21/19
Im Catholic and got married in an Episcopal Church. In attendance were a Episcopal Priest (that was previously Jewish) and a Catholic Deacon. Catholic Church approved.
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swimmerbabe11
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1:04p, 10/30/19
I wasn't sure if I wanted to make a whole new thread...

But.. participating in a wedding (as a bridesmaid/groomsman) for a couple that you don't actually think should get married in the first place..but then you find out that they have decided to have a "pastor" from a non Christian church marry them. (the bride is of that faith, the groom is not and has no plans on converting. They have not decided where they will go to church or how they will raise their kids once married)

I obviously can't pray with the officiant as he is non-trinitarian..but what would do you do regarding being in the bridal party? I think I must, as I am promising to support them after the vows.. My brother thinks we should not stand in the wedding.
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dermdoc
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 2:04p, 10/30/19
AG
Just curious how you would you feel about standing in a Jewish wedding? Or a civil wedding?

I believe I have done both of those(I have been in about 16 weddings) and never thought about what you are saying. Of course I am kind of out there.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:08p, 10/30/19
I think as long as the groom and bride were on the same page religiously, it wouldn't bother me and I def wouldn't pray with the jewish rabbi, but I would be respectful.

My proximity to the groom and knowing he doesn't believe what the officiant teaches and also thinking that this marriage is a very poor decision probably impacts this more than anything. The bride's congregation (they are very anti-church) believes we are pagans and heretics and denies the Church in general.. so they have derision towards Christianity in general.
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diehard03
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2:12p, 10/30/19
They aren't asking you to approve of the wedding, just be there for them in this time of celebration and inevitable tragedy.

You will need to drop the "shouldn't get married" part and take that sin to the grave. It's too late to have that conversation now.

I don't see what would be wrong with praying yourself to Christ while they are leading you in prayer.

Quote:
They have not decided where they will go to church or how they will raise their kids once married

They have. It's just not the answer anyone wants to hear.
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