Part of my guest sermon Sunday week from now, since this thread is all over the place:

This morning I'm going to lay out the facts and you can decide what to do with them.

First Jesus was killed. Crucified on a cross after living a life of 33+ years. They took Him down off that cross and wrapped him up in linens totaling 150lbs roughly and stuffed him into a hole in the side of a mountain; can you imagine about 4 feet high and 4 feet wide, shoved him in there and then rolled a rock geologist estimate weighed 1-2 tons. They then placed a Roman Guard unit that's around 16 people that had been trained since they were 12 years old to do one thing. To guard 6 ft of ground against the attack of an entire army. These were mean fellas, and they put 16 of these guys in front of the tomb with one job DON'T LET ANYONE MESS WITH THIS TOMB.

They also put the seal of the Roman Government on it which probably meant it was kind of like two triangles with the points facing each other. Some say that this represented the # of years that the Roman Government was there but what it actually meant was when you saw itthis is federal property. Can you imagine a person seeing this and it signifying that if you mess with this and you'll have Caesar to answer to. 3 days later the rock (whisp) rolled away. The guard unit gone- the body missing. Now how'd it happen. You tell me who Jesus was.

One theorist says I don't believe Jesus was God's son. I think that was a hoax! As a matter of fact what I think happenedand he advanced into what's called "The Stolen Body" theory and this is brilliant. This guy says that the disciplesthis close band of fisherman and tax collectors, ya know, really macho men, came and snuck up on the Roman Guard unit, beat them up, rolled the 1-2 ton stone out of the way snuck in, got the body, got it out of tomb and then got someone to impersonate Jesus in the city, and after doing so they got rid of him and then when knives were put to their throats and they were crucified upside down and told "tell us it's a lie" they said "no, kill us". Now that makes a lot of sense doesn't it, for people to go out and do that.

More than that, even a better theory. People say, no that doesn't make sense but I'll tell you what does make sense and that is Jesus never really died! There's a whole book written about this. That when Jesus was crucified on that cross, and they ran that spear through his side and blood and water poured out it was just a flesh wound! And they took him down, rolled Him up in that linen sealing Him head to toe, stuffed Him into a cold dark hole, sealed up, stale air, no water, no food for 3 days..and He got better.and He nudged the 1-2ton stone out of the way and hopped out, beat up the roman Guard unit and snuck off into town and that's what happened to Him. Now I went to college (haha) I don't buy that.

The best is the "Wrong Tomb" theory. And that's the theory that's been advanced that when they put Jesus in that tomb, sealed Him up.they forgot where they put Him. And they sent those Roman Guards to the wrong tomb. And the Jewish people went to the wrong tomb. Mary and Martha went to the wrong tomb. And that's why they said the tomb was empty. Now none of those make sense.

But then there's a 4th one that makes a lot of sense and that is Jesus Christ was God's son and He came out of the ground miraculously in such a way that it scared nearly to death an entire Roman Guard unit. And that's why this is 2019, based on Jesus Christ around the time of his birth. Now you don't have to believe that this morning.one day, you'll believe it. You don't have to confess Christ today one day you will.the bible says so. My advice is.beat the rush. Do it now because there's going to be a lot of people on that last day who waited to the last minute and I'm not looking forward to seeing my friends, or a teacher or business acquaintance kneeling down on Judgement Day to confess Christ, but it'll be too late. So too will it be for the person who has been baptized into Christ but is living a life of sin. We'll all confess Christ on Judgement Day. Whether we confess Him as Wonderful Savior or as terrible judge, that's our choice this morning.

tehmackdaddy said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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The bible maybe. Not God perse

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So what's the holdup?

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Logic

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First Jesus was killed. Crucified on a cross after living a life of 33+ years. They took Him down off that cross and wrapped him up in linens totaling 150lbs roughly and stuffed him into a hole in the side of a mountain; can you imagine about 4 feet high and 4 feet wide, shoved him in there and then rolled a rock geologist estimate weighed 1-2 tons. They then placed a Roman Guard unit that's around 16 people that had been trained since they were 12 years old to do one thing. To guard 6 ft of ground against the attack of an entire army. These were mean fellas, and they put 16 of these guys in front of the tomb with one job DON'T LET ANYONE MESS WITH THIS TOMB.

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If you think that is all proven history, well more power to you.

Texaggie7nine said:

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First Jesus was killed. Crucified on a cross after living a life of 33+ years. They took Him down off that cross and wrapped him up in linens totaling 150lbs roughly and stuffed him into a hole in the side of a mountain; can you imagine about 4 feet high and 4 feet wide, shoved him in there and then rolled a rock geologist estimate weighed 1-2 tons. They then placed a Roman Guard unit that's around 16 people that had been trained since they were 12 years old to do one thing. To guard 6 ft of ground against the attack of an entire army. These were mean fellas, and they put 16 of these guys in front of the tomb with one job DON'T LET ANYONE MESS WITH THIS TOMB.

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If you think that is all proven history, well more power to you.

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More power from God more like.

Texaggie7nine said:

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tehmackdaddy said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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But us not understanding all God knows does mean we can't still use logic to assess the things he supposedly tells us.

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You cannot use logic to understand that which has not been made known.

Texaggie7nine said:

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All you simply need to do is follow the logic from the principle of "God is Love". Millions of souls damned to hell because they were unlucky enough to be born in the wrong hemisphere is not logically Love.

Now if you believe those other faiths that are based on love also go to heaven, then you have a case to make for logic.

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You are, again, following the false logic of presuming to know that which you do not.

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I'm not presuming to know anything. I'm making statements of logical conclusions if certain things are true. IF there is a hell. IF souls go there eternally for a short temporal life.

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Texaggie7nine - Please define Hell for the purpose of understanding your logic. While you are at it, soul. Thx!

+Pablo

Nice breakdown of the "options" out there surround the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. When you say, "it will be too late" for those that wait until the last minute - are you implying that God's mercy will not be there for them, even at the moment of death? Just curious. Thx and preach on, preacher!

DirtDiver said:

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What exactly is it that you believe Jesus dying and being resurrected accomplished, that was not possible for a sinner before Jesus who was repentant and asked for forgiveness?

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4. God had 4 main covenants: Abraham, Mosaic, Davidic, New - The last was inaugurated with the blood of Jesus.

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Great point! In order to fully answer the initial question, you have to look at the Biblical (since you cite Jesus) background of God's Covenants. Dr. Scott Hahn, a Catholic theologian, has an incredible series of writings on the Biblical covenants God instituted to reconcile man (us men and women) to him - because of original sin. In a nutshell:

1. The first covenant is with Adam, the role as a Husband, the form is Marriage, and sign is the Sabbath (day of rest)

2. The second is with Noah, the role as Father, the form is Household, the sign is a Rainbow.

3. The third is with Abram, the role is as a Chieftain, form is Tribe, sign is Circumcision.

4. The forth is with Moses, role as Judge, form is Nation, sign is Passover.

5. The fifth is David, role as King, form is a National Kingdom, sign is a Throne.

6. The sixth is Jesus, role as Royal High Priest, form is The Church, sign is Eucharist.

Worth reading, listening, watching.. Dr. Scott Hahn has an incredible way of bringing the scriptures together and his biblical knowledge is some of best I have seen. A wonderful person I had the pleasure to meet years ago.

+Pablo

EDIT to add: That the Biblical history shows God moving from a person, to a family, to a people, to a nation, to the whole world in His love to reconcile man. Jesus's death and resurrection was the final covenant.

Texaggie7nine said:

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First Jesus was killed. Crucified on a cross after living a life of 33+ years. They took Him down off that cross and wrapped him up in linens totaling 150lbs roughly and stuffed him into a hole in the side of a mountain; can you imagine about 4 feet high and 4 feet wide, shoved him in there and then rolled a rock geologist estimate weighed 1-2 tons. They then placed a Roman Guard unit that's around 16 people that had been trained since they were 12 years old to do one thing. To guard 6 ft of ground against the attack of an entire army. These were mean fellas, and they put 16 of these guys in front of the tomb with one job DON'T LET ANYONE MESS WITH THIS TOMB.

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If you think that is all proven history, well more power to you.

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It's a trap! LOL

Hell being any sort of undesirable state for an eternity after death. Soul being what would be experiencing the undesirable state.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Hell being any sort of undesirable state for an eternity after death. Soul being what would be experiencing the undesirable state.

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1. Undesirable you say? This sounds rather punitive by an angry god. Why would a loving God punish for all eternity, as you have put it, an un-knowing soul? On the contrary, I believe in a loving and merciful God that desires to be together with us for all eternity. Only - that he wants us to want that too. So my definition of Hell is that of a "choice" to be apart from God and deny his love.

2. Regarding your definition of Soul, can you expand a bit on where the body would be in this state?

3. I'd ask what you mean by death, but I may be pushing it with you. I'm certainly not referring to the medical definition, but rather the philosophical definition. Is death, in your opinion, a consequence of a fall from a state of grace in which we originally were closer to God?

He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him. Almost as a vindictive curse.
Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

What becomes of the body is minutia.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

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In my experience, Isn't that just a break up?


(This is a joke)

Texaggie7nine said:

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He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him. Almost as a vindictive curse.
Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

What becomes of the body is minutia.

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This logic is super wierd to me.

The absence of good things makes people sad. Why wouldn't the absence of the goodest (sic) thing makes us the most sad? We mourn loss all the time. We enjoy spending time with those who love us and when they are gone, we are sad. Why would it be different with our heavenly father?

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him. Almost as a vindictive curse.
Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

What becomes of the body is minutia.

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This logic is super wierd to me.

The absence of good things makes people sad. Why wouldn't the absence of the goodest (sic) thing makes us the most sad? We mourn loss all the time. We enjoy spending time with those who love us and when they are gone, we are sad. Why would it be different with our heavenly father?

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Mainly because you always have the option to go back to your family. Even if you rejected them. If they truly love you, there is no point of no return.

And beyond that, if your family had control they would at least make it so you could be as happy as possible, even if its without them.

And to take that further. I'm fully aware of the picture CS Lewis painted in The Great Divorce where hell is locked from the inside and technically anyone there could leave and go to God if they wanted, however that they all still choose to exist in their own misery out of blindness for what is good is a condition that they will exist in through eternity and God still chose to create them to suffer that horrible fate knowing that would be the case.

Texaggie7nine said:

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He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him. Almost as a vindictive curse.
Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

What becomes of the body is minutia.

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You have repeated this logic previously and it really doesn't make sense. Help me understand it better.


"He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him."
You use the word, "it" - I am assuming you mean love? It has been argued that God is Love. So the absence of love is?? You say miserable, I think that is close to it. It certainly is a sad state of being.

In the second part you say he created us to be miserable without him. It has been argued that God created us to love and be loved. I think this is closer to the mark. When I read your words, and I must say you write a lot, the god you describe is impersonal, manipulative and in this case vindictive. Its no wonder you have stopped believing! I would as well.

"Wouldn't it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??"
Doesn't sound like a free person to me. Sounds more like an object than a true person created in the image of God (ever lasting soul) endowed with a free will. You have set up a construct in which you acknowledge our freedom to choose God, but you deny that the ultimate source of good IS in fact God himself. By doing this you have relegated this god of yours (I mean that in sense that it is a false god) to being Pepsi among an assortment of other flavors.

"What becomes of the body is minutia."
Actually I think what becomes of our body is in fact very important. So much so, that we bury our dead in the hope that when Jesus comes again in glory - our bodies will be reunited with our spirit. This thread started off by asking why would people risk their lives for persecution - and this is why. Because our life is indeed short and doesn't seem right that we only get a blip of time (as we know it) to love.. and be loved.

Texaggie7nine said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him. Almost as a vindictive curse.
Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

What becomes of the body is minutia.

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This logic is super wierd to me.

The absence of good things makes people sad. Why wouldn't the absence of the goodest (sic) thing makes us the most sad? We mourn loss all the time. We enjoy spending time with those who love us and when they are gone, we are sad. Why would it be different with our heavenly father?

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Mainly because you always have the option to go back to your family. Even if you rejected them. If they truly love you, there is no point of no return.

And beyond that, if your family had control they would at least make it so you could be as happy as possible, even if its without them.

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You keep separating God from Happiness. He is one and the same.

EDIT to add that Swimmerbabe asked a good question about the "goodest" thing. Wanted to see your response to that.

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It has been argued that God created us to love and be loved. I think this is closer to the mark. When I read your words, and I must say you write a lot, the god you describe is impersonal, manipulative and in this case vindictive.

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You can sin and still love. You can not believe in the Christian god and still love. According to the bible, even if we are full of love and and live in love 99% of our lives, if we sin, that is worthy of death. Spiritual death in some scriptures.

Many preachers like to describe sinning as "to miss the mark". That sounds quite harmless, except for the fact that the Bible makes it clear that without Jesus in your heart, missing the mark equals an eternity of separation.

If that were the case, then you would have a vindictive god.

It seems like a simple notion. "To simply love god". However, within that notion you have a very complex qualifier of first being convinced that the right god exists. So much of the world believes and loves a different version of God. One without Jesus. For God to create us to love him, yet make it so convoluted who HE really even is, to make it so easy to see scientifically a world of humans existing without the creation described in the Bible, to make it so easy to find simple contradictions and geographical errors in "his word"..... all while leaving the only option for us if we do not find the correct version of God and love him, as eternal misery separated from him, that would be manipulative.

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You have set up a construct in which you acknowledge our freedom to choose God, but you deny that the ultimate source of good IS in fact God himself. By doing this you have relegated this god of yours (I mean that in sense that it is a false god) to being Pepsi among an assortment of other flavors.

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And what you are doing is setting up God as a hapless innocent who is almost a victim of being the only good, because well that's the only way existence can work. So to match that scenario, in the world I create the woman, let's now say that I live on an island with 0 other men. So I just create this woman who cannot exist happy without a man. Hey, it's not my fault I'm the only man that exists.

No matter how you want to present it, you cannot get away from the fact that if God is the creator of everything, is omnipotent and omniscient, then he put humanity in the scenario where the majority are doomed to eternal separation from him, and he still created us knowing this. Knowing so many would exist on eternally in misery.

You would think an all powerful God could create the scenario in another way. Even if that were that all those that didn't choose him would simply cease to exist at death. So they don't have to experience misery eternally. The only reason to allow them to continue to exist would be as a punishment, out of spite.

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Actually I think what becomes of our body is in fact very important. So much so, that we bury our dead in the hope that when Jesus comes again in glory - our bodies will be reunited with our spirit. This thread started off by asking why would people risk their lives for persecution - and this is why. Because our life is indeed short and doesn't seem right that we only get a blip of time (as we know it) to love.. and be loved.

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Still not seeing any point to what happens to the body. My born again, life long christian grandparents had themselves cremated. You think when Jesus returns, they will just not get to come back because their body is gone? If that is the case, I will add a demand to be cremated in my will.

PabloSerna said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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He wants us to want it too, so much that he created us to be miserable without him. Almost as a vindictive curse.
Wouldnt it be cool if you could create a hot girl that would be miserable without you??

What becomes of the body is minutia.

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This logic is super wierd to me.

The absence of good things makes people sad. Why wouldn't the absence of the goodest (sic) thing makes us the most sad? We mourn loss all the time. We enjoy spending time with those who love us and when they are gone, we are sad. Why would it be different with our heavenly father?

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Mainly because you always have the option to go back to your family. Even if you rejected them. If they truly love you, there is no point of no return.

And beyond that, if your family had control they would at least make it so you could be as happy as possible, even if its without them.

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You keep separating God from Happiness. He is one and the same.

EDIT to add that Swimmerbabe asked a good question about the "goodest" thing. Wanted to see your response to that.

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Easy to say, difficult to actually make this assertion make any sense. You would, in essence, be saying those that do not go to heaven, just don't want to be happy. They want to be miserable. Ok then, all the Bible would need to say is "if you want to go to heaven, then just desire to be happy and be happy". Because if you are happy, then you love God.

I want to hit on two points you make as I think your questions are leading you in the right direction.

First, your body does matter. However, God created Adam from dust, so do you not think he could take the dust of your ashes and recreate you from it? Also, when people are buried their body rots into dust as well so it should just be a matter of is one method different than the other, and most people believe the answer is no.

Your second question about returning to family after you turn your back on them. The same analogy plays true with God. He is our Heavenly Father. Why wouldn't he take you back in with loving arms. It would be in much the same way when your family takes you back. You repent and ask to be forgiven and he accepts you back into His family with loving arms. It is never too late.

Hyacinth said:

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Your second question about returning to family after you turn your back on them. The same analogy plays true with God. He is our Heavenly Father. Why wouldn't he take you back in with loving arms. It would be in much the same way when your family takes you back. You repent and ask to be forgiven and he accepts you back into His family with loving arms. It is never too late.

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Well-said.

Luke 15:11-32 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Parable of the Prodigal Son
11 And he said, "There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.' And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to[a] one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 "But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants."' 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'[b]22 But the father said to his servants,[c] 'Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.
25 "Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.' 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, 'Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!' 31 And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.'"

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Your second question about returning to family after you turn your back on them. The same analogy plays true with God. He is our Heavenly Father. Why wouldn't he take you back in with loving arms. It would be in much the same way when your family takes you back. You repent and ask to be forgiven and he accepts you back into His family with loving arms. It is never too late.

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So people in Hell will be able to return to the Father? So eventually no one will be in Hell?

I guess God is truly love then.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Your second question about returning to family after you turn your back on them. The same analogy plays true with God. He is our Heavenly Father. Why wouldn't he take you back in with loving arms. It would be in much the same way when your family takes you back. You repent and ask to be forgiven and he accepts you back into His family with loving arms. It is never too late.

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So people in Hell will be able to return to the Father? So eventually no one will be in Hell?

I guess God is truly love then.

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We weren't talking about people in hell, now were we? I think it's been said many times in this thread, but you make a conscious choice between loving God or not. This can be up to the point of your imminent death like the thief on the cross or it can be a lifelong pursuit of holiness. The choice is yours (if you're Catholic, Purgatory would probably be "easier" if you go the lifelong holy route)

Can God remove people from hell? No clue, but I imagine at that point the person in hell has no desire to be close to God so it would likely not make a difference. And to relate this back to your analogy, if you chose to deny your parents a relationship with you and they pass away without ever amending that relationship, can it be fixed?

So I am curious, how would God be demonstrating love if he forced people who rejected Him to be in His presence against their free will? In fact, it seems to me that being in God's presence would be "hell" to people who reject God.

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Neither of these parents are saying, "well, as long as these self-destructive behaviors make him happy, good for him." They grieve for their sons. They have done all that they can to help, but the help hasn't been received. Why is it such a stretch to think sin works differently?

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I know several parents facing this issue. One was a very close family member who thankfully is back from the brink now after years of bottom.

I completely understand the mindset of "I love my child but as long as they engage in those behaviors, I cannot allow them in my home and around my family, however I love them and will always be available to help when and if they are ready".

As I said above and many times, this is similar to The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. People in hell are just those incapable of escaping their selfish bubble.

However, why is it that we are fully capable of changing our mind and ways here in this life, completely capable of turning to Christ and being saved, yet once we die and once we are either banished to hell after the judgment or existing wherever in a separation from God for eternity or any other of the versions of hell that the various denominations believe in, it becomes too late? Why draw the line there? If we can experience the pain of being separated from God after death, why can we not also change our ways after death?

Any answer you give to that, you still have to acknowledge that that is the scenario that God created and put us in, knowing so many would be lost.

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We weren't talking about people in hell, now were we?

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I was when I said "no point of no return". It is just silly to say on one hand "God NEVER gives up on you..." and on the next say "oh, well you are dead, too late, God gave up on you".

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Can God remove people from hell? No clue, but I imagine at that point the person in hell has no desire to be close to God so it would likely not make a difference.

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Why would it not make a difference? The person would be in a far worse place than when they were on earth. They would now know that God was real. Why in the world would they not want to love god?

The idea that the people who go to hell choose it is such a silly one. These are people that either believe in a different religion, or have not found enough evidence to believe a god exists. That is not choosing to be permanently separated from a loving god. Fact is, if God popped in front of every single nonbelievers face and proved to them beyond a doubt that he was real and was a god of love, pretty much every single one would immediately decide to love god.

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And to relate this back to your analogy, if you chose to deny your parents a relationship with you and they pass away without ever amending that relationship, can it be fixed?

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If we exist as conscious beings after death, why the hell couldn't it be fixed?

Gentle reminder - there is zero scriptural support for hell being separation of God. St Paul says in the recapitulation of all things God will be all in all. Hell is not separation, there is no such thing as separation from God with continued existence.

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Fact is, if God popped in front of every single nonbelievers face and proved to them beyond a doubt that he was real and was a god of love, pretty much every single one would immediately decide to love god.

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have you actually met people? This is not true at all.

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However, why is it that we are fully capable of changing our mind and ways here in this life, completely capable of turning to Christ and being saved, yet once we die and once we are either banished to hell after the judgment or existing wherever in a separation from God for eternity or any other of the versions of hell that the various denominations believe in, it becomes too late? Why draw the line there? If we can experience the pain of being separated from God after death, why can we not also change our ways after death?

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Realize that they belief in eternal conscious torment in hell is not a fundamental core belief of Christianity. It is not an indispensable pillar of the faith. There are many who believe in that or don't, and neither is a disqualification from Christianity. Rejecting Christianity in total due to being appalled and disgusted by the idea of hell really doesn't make sense, since many devout and active Christians are appalled and disgusted by the idea of hell. Me among them.

Imagine a kid disobeying his parents after he was told not to do something. He gets caught, his punishment is made known to him, and now that he sees how bad his punishment is, he wants a do-over and is sorry. He still has to receive the punishment. It's not an act of hate, but the ultimate act of love to discipline your child. Letting him out of it lets him know that what he did wasn't that bad.

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So I am curious, how would God be demonstrating love if he forced people who rejected Him to be in His presence against their free will? In fact, it seems to me that being in God's presence would be "hell" to people who reject God.

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That is the theory put forth by K2 earlier in this thread. What God would have created would be a scenario from the start where the majority of his beloved creation would exist for eternity in misery with no hope of relief.

Now that I think about it more. This goes with the theory he put forth that Jesus dying and being resurrected is what enabled ALL souls to be resurrected into their bodies and live on forever. Just the ones that do not love God will be miserable forever. So that would mean that Jesus' sacrifice is what creates the scenario of millions and millions of resurrected nonbelievers that will suffer for all eternity in their bodies with no hope of relief. It seems to me like if Jesus was truly merciful, he would not have been resurrected so that all those millions would never be brought back to life and would never experience misery after death. That would be an act of love.

Think of it economically in this way. Let's say half of all humans that will have existed before the end of the world are saved and go on to live in heaven in happiness for all eternity while the other half will live in a type of hell where they are miserable for eternity (of course the Bible makes it out that far less will get to heaven but lets just say half for this thought experiment). So, God has 2 options. He can either just let all souls expire into nothing when their human body dies, or he can resurrect all souls at the end of the world and have the half and half scenario. Would a God that TRULY loved every single one of his humans think that it would be worth half of the humans suffering for all eternity just so the other half could live in joy for eternity? Even if I grant that whether they are in heaven or hell was by their own choices on earth. I would argue that if God truly loved his creation and cared for every single one of them, if those were the only 2 options, then He would just allow all human souls to cease to exist after death, because no amount of happiness is worth eternal suffering of others. That is not love.

k2aggie07 said:

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Fact is, if God popped in front of every single nonbelievers face and proved to them beyond a doubt that he was real and was a god of love, pretty much every single one would immediately decide to love god.

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have you actually met people? This is not true at all.

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I have. Have you seen how big bad *** dudes who act completely tough and unafraid act when suddenly the person they are antagonizing pulls a gun? They turn really nice.

You can never convince me that (aside from a few mental health cases) any human would actively choose eternal misery over a God that loves them and is all powerful.

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Rejecting Christianity in total due to being appalled and disgusted by the idea of hell really doesn't make sense, since many devout and active Christians are appalled and disgusted by the idea of hell. Me among them.

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I almost converted to Mormonism for a short time, simply because they believe all souls eventually make it to heaven.

I became a Universalist for a bit. If I have kids, I would probably look to raise them in a Universalist church, if I can find a decent one (that's tough to do).

Eventually though, I just could not convince myself that the scriptures like Mark 9:48 could mean anything other than some type of suffering after death with no hope for redemption. Be it as k2 says, where they are still with god but suffering eternally because they cannot bare to be in his light, or whatever. Suffering is suffering, and I'm fine with any amount of suffering on earth because it's temporary. But eternal suffering is just nothing that an all powerful God of love would ever make possible.

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Imagine a kid disobeying his parents after he was told not to do something. He gets caught, his punishment is made known to him, and now that he sees how bad his punishment is, he wants a do-over and is sorry. He still has to receive the punishment. It's not an act of hate, but the ultimate act of love to discipline your child. Letting him out of it lets him know that what he did wasn't that bad.

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I completely agree. Punishment is completely rational within love if its purpose is to teach the one being punished how to be better in the future. Eternal punishment is just punishment for the sake of punishment. It is for spite. If the person being punished cannot, as a result, become a better person, then it is not out of love. It is out of hate.