I do not believe in eternal conscious torment theology.

That's not love. That's fear. And that response causes hatred, not love. Put the gun away or take the gun and see what remains.

The Truth is a person, who is the Reason and Order of all creation. This is the literal Word of God, the Logos, who gave us an Apostolic Church by which we commune through the Sacraments.

The telos of life is theosis to Logos.

Therefore, all who wish to more fully follow the Logos should join the Apostolic Church (Catholic / Orthodox).

I do not deny at all there are many greater Christians than I who do not engage the Sacraments.

The question is: how does God wish us to commune with Him?

dermdoc said:

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So I am curious, how would God be demonstrating love if he forced people who rejected Him to be in His presence against their free will? In fact, it seems to me that being in God's presence would be "hell" to people who reject God.

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You just gave me a really funny picture of lots of us worshiping in Heaven but with a salty crowd on the corner protesting cosmicro-aggressions and telling us to check our sanctified privilege.

dermdoc said:

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I do not believe in eternal conscious torment theology.

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But what do you mean specifically by that. Torment doesn't have to be demons poking you with sticks. It simply has to be not desirable.

Existing for eternity in a state where you are suffering in any way would be torment.
So are you an annihilationist ?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Neither of these parents are saying, "well, as long as these self-destructive behaviors make him happy, good for him." They grieve for their sons. They have done all that they can to help, but the help hasn't been received. Why is it such a stretch to think sin works differently?

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I know several parents facing this issue. One was a very close family member who thankfully is back from the brink now after years of bottom.

I completely understand the mindset of "I love my child but as long as they engage in those behaviors, I cannot allow them in my home and around my family, however I love them and will always be available to help when and if they are ready".

As I said above and many times, this is similar to The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. People in hell are just those incapable of escaping their selfish bubble.

However, why is it that we are fully capable of changing our mind and ways here in this life, completely capable of turning to Christ and being saved, yet once we die and once we are either banished to hell after the judgment or existing wherever in a separation from God for eternity or any other of the versions of hell that the various denominations believe in, it becomes too late? Why draw the line there? If we can experience the pain of being separated from God after death, why can we not also change our ways after death?

Any answer you give to that, you still have to acknowledge that that is the scenario that God created and put us in, knowing so many would be lost.

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How would you expect us to know that? There is no way to inquire, and everything we know about eternity was divinely revealed. So your complaint seems to be that God did not reveal enough about the nature of eternity.

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So people in Hell will be able to return to the Father? So eventually no one will be in Hell? I guess God is truly love then.

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God's love has nothing to do with the existence of hell.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, - Unconditional and universal
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. - conditional

Texaggie7nine said:

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Think of it economically in this way. Let's say half of all humans that will have existed before the end of the world are saved and go on to live in heaven in happiness for all eternity while the other half will live in a type of hell where they are miserable for eternity (of course the Bible makes it out that far less will get to heaven but lets just say half for this thought experiment). So, God has 2 options. He can either just let all souls expire into nothing when their human body dies, or he can resurrect all souls at the end of the world and have the half and half scenario. Would a God that TRULY loved every single one of his humans think that it would be worth half of the humans suffering for all eternity just so the other half could live in joy for eternity? Even if I grant that whether they are in heaven or hell was by their own choices on earth. I would argue that if God truly loved his creation and cared for every single one of them, if those were the only 2 options, then He would just allow all human souls to cease to exist after death, because no amount of happiness is worth eternal suffering of others. That is not love.

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If this issue can be resolved are you willing to give your life over to Christ?

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Rather than choosing a sect of Christianity based on what makes you feel good, focus on finding the Truth. Otherwise you'll follow the path of relativism and choosing what you want to believe based on how it makes you feel and whether or not it hurts others.

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I agree. Rather than stay in Christianity because it made me feel good, I faced the fact that I really had lost faith that it was the truth. After looking at all my biggest questions again, allowing myself to doubt the Bible as being true, it all made perfect sense.

Texaggie7nine said:

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You can never convince me that (aside from a few mental health cases) any human would actively choose eternal misery over a God that loves them and is all powerful.

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And yet here you are, refusing an offer of eternal joy because you cannot reconcile that which you do not know.

k2aggie07 said:

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That's not love. That's fear. And that response causes hatred, not love. Put the gun away or take the gun and see what remains.

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More like respect for a power he now realizes he has.

And as we all know, the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord..

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Eventually though, I just could not convince myself that the scriptures like Mark 9:48 could mean anything other than some type of suffering after death with no hope for redemption. Be it as k2 says, where they are still with god but suffering eternally because they cannot bare to be in his light, or whatever. Suffering is suffering, and I'm fine with any amount of suffering on earth because it's temporary. But eternal suffering is just nothing that an all powerful God of love would ever make possible.

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I fall on the other side of that coin. I agree that nothing exists outside of God, so when you entirely reject fellowship with him you also cease to exist. That's still an eternal "punishment" not a temporal one, so I'm not sure it meets your standards of fairness. As to whether that counts as eternal suffering is semantics.

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How would you expect us to know that? There is no way to inquire, and everything we know about eternity was divinely revealed. So your complaint seems to be that God did not reveal enough about the nature of eternity.

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Other religion's gods revealed something different. How are we to know for a fact that your god is absolutely the right version?

Don't change the subject. You said if people were confronted with a loving God they'd love him back. I said that's not true and you said when you pull a gun on people they suddenly act different.

So yes, I agree that when people are confronted with God, loving or no, there will be fear. But not necessarily love.

DirtDiver said:

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So people in Hell will be able to return to the Father? So eventually no one will be in Hell? I guess God is truly love then.

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God's love has nothing to do with the existence of hell.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, - Unconditional and universal
that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. - conditional

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He so loved the world that he gave his own self (as his son) to die and go back to heaven so that we didn't have to suffer the punishment God set forth from the beginning of time for us.

tehmackdaddy said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Think of it economically in this way. Let's say half of all humans that will have existed before the end of the world are saved and go on to live in heaven in happiness for all eternity while the other half will live in a type of hell where they are miserable for eternity (of course the Bible makes it out that far less will get to heaven but lets just say half for this thought experiment). So, God has 2 options. He can either just let all souls expire into nothing when their human body dies, or he can resurrect all souls at the end of the world and have the half and half scenario. Would a God that TRULY loved every single one of his humans think that it would be worth half of the humans suffering for all eternity just so the other half could live in joy for eternity? Even if I grant that whether they are in heaven or hell was by their own choices on earth. I would argue that if God truly loved his creation and cared for every single one of them, if those were the only 2 options, then He would just allow all human souls to cease to exist after death, because no amount of happiness is worth eternal suffering of others. That is not love.

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If this issue can be resolved are you willing to give your life over to Christ?

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I've already given it over and lived in Christ for most of my life. Are you saying I would need to be saved AGAIN? And crucify Jesus again because once was not enough? Hebrews 6:6

Everything you say about Christianity is wrong. It's amazing.

It's not a punishment. If I tell you, don't touch that fire it will burn you, and then you do it anyway, am I punishing you?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Eventually though, I just could not convince myself that the scriptures like Mark 9:48 could mean anything other than some type of suffering after death with no hope for redemption. Be it as k2 says, where they are still with god but suffering eternally because they cannot bare to be in his light, or whatever. Suffering is suffering, and I'm fine with any amount of suffering on earth because it's temporary. But eternal suffering is just nothing that an all powerful God of love would ever make possible.

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I fall on the other side of that coin. I agree that nothing exists outside of God, so when you entirely reject fellowship with him you also cease to exist. That's still an eternal "punishment" not a temporal one, so I'm not sure it meets your standards of fairness. As to whether that counts as eternal suffering is semantics.

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Not really. If you don't exist, then you don't experience. If you can't experience then there can be no suffering. You simply don't exist.

True. There is also a meaning of suffering that just refers to being punished. IE "He suffered the fate of all those who oppose the king". By that meaning someone is suffering eternally. Which I why I think eternal conscious torment/torture is more precise when talking about this.

k2aggie07 said:

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Don't change the subject. You said if people were confronted with a loving God they'd love him back. I said that's not true and you said when you pull a gun on people they suddenly act different.

So yes, I agree that when people are confronted with God, loving or no, there will be fear. But not necessarily love.

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True I would agree with that. Some people hate existence and as they are pissed at their parents for creating them, they would be pissed at God.

However, can you blame them? With parents you can't because they have no idea how their kid will turn out. With God, he knew you before he created you, and he still did knowing you would be forever miserable. That's pretty crappy.

k2aggie07 said:

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Everything you say about Christianity is wrong. It's amazing.

It's not a punishment. If I tell you, don't touch that fire it will burn you, and then you do it anyway, am I punishing you?

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Did God create everything? Then he created the fire that will burn you.

Why would he create a scenario where the consequence would be eternal unhappiness?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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True. There is also a meaning of suffering that just refers to being punished. IE "He suffered the fate of all those who oppose the king". By that meaning someone is suffering eternally. Which I why I think eternal conscious torment/torture is more precise when talking about this.

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As I posted long ago, this article puts forth a great argument towards that end.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2225848/

I just eventually was no longer convinced of that.

Texaggie7nine said:

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I've already given it over and lived in Christ for most of my life. Are you saying I would need to be saved AGAIN? And crucify Jesus again because once was not enough? Hebrews 6:6

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I believe you know what I meant. Please answer the question.

I told you, the tension is between love and freedom. You are suggesting that it's better to have never existed. I don't know how you can say that.

Man says, why did you make me?

God says, I made you to love me, because I love you and l loved you before you existed

Man says, I hate you

God says I love you.

Man says, stop it, I hate you and I hate you loving me.

God says, I can't, I love you for what I made you to be.

And this is God's fault?

God either makes automatons or He makes beings capable of love, like Him. But that requires freedom.

tehmackdaddy said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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I've already given it over and lived in Christ for most of my life. Are you saying I would need to be saved AGAIN? And crucify Jesus again because once was not enough? Hebrews 6:6

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I believe you know what I meant. Please answer the question.

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The best way I can put it is, if I can be convinced Christ is real. That Jesus really was the son of God. Then yes, I would love to live fully back as a christian.

If you psychoanalyze my posting habits on this board, it would seem pretty obvious that part of me is hoping I can be re-convinced of Christianity being true. Hoping to find that one post or poster that can open my eyes.

I'll fully admit it was much more nice having 100% belief that there is a higher power out there that loves me and is going to conquer evil. Though, if I am honest, not nice enough to make me forget the sorrow I constantly felt for those that would suffer eternal sadness.

I did have a long conversation with a fellow believer awhile back who's ultimate advice for me was "just think, when you are heaven, you will be happy because God promised, so that would mean he would make you forget all the people suffering." I can just be a soul in heaven eating the sausage of happiness being completely ignorant of how it's made.

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Other religion's gods revealed something different. How are we to know for a fact that your god is absolutely the right version?

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Deduction and evidence.

Atheism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Agnosticism, Mormonism, Animism, Buddhism. All have competing claims about the nature and existence of God. If one of these is true, all of the others is false. 2 or more of these cannot be true at the same time.

• We see complexity, life, and order in the universe. We do not get order from explosions. Reality better supports a Creator which eliminates the non-theistic religions.
• We see morality on earth and treat it as if it's objective which is not reasonable if there is no absolute moral law giver.
• The historical evidence for Jesus passes the test of internal consistency, historical accuracy, chain of custody, multiple diverse eyewitness, in a way that the others do no. (example: Islam claims Jesus didn't die - Is is more reasonable to believe this claim 600 years after the events or the 1 century eye witnesses?)
• The character of Jesus and the accuracy of the scriptures is reliable in ways the other options are not.
• Easy to understand, non-complex fulfilled prophesy. Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

k2aggie07 said:

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I told you, the tension is between love and freedom. You are suggesting that it's better to have never existed. I don't know how you can say that.

Man says, why did you make me?

God says, I made you to love me, because I love you and l loved you before you existed

Man says, I hate you

God says I love you.

Man says, stop it, I hate you and I hate you loving me.

God says, I can't, I love you for what I made you to be.

And this is God's fault?

God either makes automatons or He makes beings capable of love, like Him. But that requires freedom.

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But he also knew us before he made us. Jeremiah 1:5.

I'm sure you have seen my analogy I like to use occasionally on here.


If an angel came to visit you one night before you and your spouse were going to make love and unknowingly conceive a child, and you knew for a FACT it was an Angel of God there to tell you the truth, and he told you that if you do make love that night, you would conceive a child that would grow up to be miserable their entire life, no matter what you did or changed, and the would go on to die unsaved and exist throughout eternity suffering in Jesus' light (or however you see hell as being). He assured you that even knowing this beforehand would not change your ability to ever change this outcome. Would you still choose to conceive that child?

And if you did, wouldn't your that child have a right to hate you for choosing to create him knowing his fate?

So all the people that look at that evidence and still find another religion more convincing.

Are they stupid? Do they go to hell ultimately because of their stupidity?

Do they choose to believe the other religions because they just HATE God?

Will they suffer eternally because they feel most comfortable in the religion their parents raised them in?

That's not how foreknowledge works. Foreknowledge doesn't preclude actual choice. We have free will, this is a Christian teaching. That child isn't guaranteed anything until they choose. You're saying - is it better for that kid, who will always choose to be unhappy but who can choose to be happy - to never exist? That's not a human-answerable question.

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You're saying - is it better for that kid, who will always choose to be unhappy but who can choose to be happy - to never exist? That's not a human-answerable question.

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Of course it is. Because the only other answer would be, it's better for him to exist and be unhappy.

You can throw in any scenario you want like "well maybe his existence causes several other people to be saved and choose happiness". Then you are stuck with an all knowing God who created a scenario that REQUIRED a person to suffer forever against their will so others could be happy.

You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Actual choice is still free choice. And accusing God of injustice for loving all equally even if some won't accept is just illogical.

Texaggie7nine said:

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The best way I can put it is, if I can be convinced Christ is real. That Jesus really was the son of God. Then yes, I would love to live fully back as a christian.

If you psychoanalyze my posting habits on this board, it would seem pretty obvious that part of me is hoping I can be re-convinced of Christianity being true. Hoping to find that one post or poster that can open my eyes.

I'll fully admit it was much more nice having 100% belief that there is a higher power out there that loves me and is going to conquer evil. Though, if I am honest, not nice enough to make me forget the sorrow I constantly felt for those that would suffer eternal sadness.

I did have a long conversation with a fellow believer awhile back who's ultimate advice for me was "just think, when you are heaven, you will be happy because God promised, so that would mean he would make you forget all the people suffering." I can just be a soul in heaven eating the sausage of happiness being completely ignorant of how it's made.

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Or you will understand that which you now do not, and it will make complete sense.

All you must do is to understand that you are not going to understand (right now), and trust the One who made you and made promises to you.

What I'm saying does not violate free will (even though I don't really believe free will really exists). If God knows what you will choose, by free will, before you are born, he still has choice in the creation of your soul. So you can logically say that it was the persons free will choices that damned him to eternal unhappiness, but God still chose to create that person's soul regardless.

And that's God's fault? That is completely illogical. You remove all responsibility from the person.