You might be correct if we were promoting once saved always saved theology where justification is the end of the story, but we aren't.
It stood out to me, because I think Cooper said that St Ambrose said Christ bought us back from Satan. I don't remember for sure, and I can't find the extended quote. But if that is what St Ambrose continued with, this is a great example of inconsistency or ambiguity in the fathers.Quote:
And actually, the first quote Cooper uses is interesting re: bondage of the will "Don't you know that the sin of Adam and Eve sold you into servitude. That Christ did not buy you, but bought you back"
My podcast this morning "A History of the Early Church" went into this subject in some detail. Apparently the Second Temple understanding of evil was fairly fleshed out. Satan was the serpent of Eden and the adversary of Job, the Watchers were his compatriots, and the Watcher's children were the pagan dieties. Each of the watcher's children had a specific nation to which they were assigned to rule, but Satan wasn't. He had dominion over death and the dead. So when Christ died, it was believed that He was in Satan's domain. However, Satan did not have the power to hold Him captive, and therefore Christ was able to overcome death for Himself and for us as well.Quote:
It stood out to me, because I think Cooper said that St Ambrose said Christ bought us back from Satan. I don't remember for sure, and I can't find the extended quote. But if that is what St Ambrose continued with, this is a great example of inconsistency or ambiguity in the fathers.
k2aggie07 said:
If you use justification in that way you're eliminating sanctification from salvation, ignoring the scriptures on judgment. And never mind the problems this presents to the whole idea of the bondage of the will. Colin's will was regenerated and un-regenerated. So presumably when he falls away he has an unregenerate will again? It's nonsense.
But anyway that use is how everyone speaks of salvation, except Orthodoxy doesn't say he's saved after the first point, or after the second. Or that anyone is saved in a final sense, until the judgment. How else could St Paul tell us - baptized Christians, people like "good" Colin - to work out our salvation? Not our justification, our salvation. Or that we will be justified on the last day?
I'm fine with the story and I think most are, except for the part where we say he is saved and then unsaved. He said there is no and then. So what he does after justification is just filler in the story.
The truth is he never was saved in the first place, or the second, because only Christ can judge.
And anyway we're back to the notional point. If a person can be saved, unsaved, and re-saved, the whole thing is just an idea, a concept, that has no bearing on our life or actions or pastoral care. It's just not a thing to concern ourselves with. God will judge; in the meantime, it's simply not relevant for us.
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For one, you say we "know" he fell short with his works. How do you know?
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All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
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2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God[b] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[c]blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
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10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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For the man who has been redeemed as a slave has his freedom, and as for the man who has been called as a free man, it is good for him to know that he is a slave of Christ, under whom servitude is safe and freedom secureFor in truth we are all freedmen of Christ, but no one is a free man; we have all been procreated in servitudeDon't you know that the guilt of Adam and Eve sold you into servitude? Don't you know that Christ did not buy you, but bought you back?"
so white is black and black is white? It's synergism but it's really monergism? Good luck convincing anyone of that explanation.Quote:
With all the talk of Calvinism, I didn't realize that from a salvation perspective, Calvinist and the Orthodox are really quite close.
What's more interesting is claiming synergism, when you are effectively claiming monergism. You must live in a constant state of worry about whether you've done enough.
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Elenctics, in Christianity, is a division of practical theology concerned with persuading people of other faiths (or no faith) of the truth of the Gospel message, with an end to producing in them an awareness of, and sense of guilt for, their sins, a recognition of their need for God's forgiveness, repentance (i.e. the disposition to turn away from their sin) and faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
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so white is black and black is white? It's synergism but it's really monergism? Good luck convincing anyone of that explanation.
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Grace comes from God alone, and He alone saves by His own sovereignty. His grace always precedes our actions, but the will remains free. We are free to do what we will or not, to work with Him and for Him, or not. And He alone judges us, our hearts, our intents.
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How can you say Ephesians 2:10 doesn't call us for works? It literally says we were created by God for works! St Paul says only faith working through love counts for anything.
You mean that God is sovereign in judgment? I mean, yeah, we agree on that. You would have to say the scriptures are false to disagree on that. The distinction between Calvinism and Orthodoxy is what part man plays leading up to the judgment, not whether God is sovereign or not in judgment. God's judgment is true, not arbitrary or capricious, and it doesn't happen without regard for the person's free will and actions arising from their own choices.Quote:
mechanically what you describe should be what a calvinist would also describe
Of course it matters. How do you read the NT and think that what we do doesn't matter? Or what I've written here? I've said over and over again what we do matters, whether we respond to the grace given us, because doing and being are inextricably linked. I didn't say a person doesn't have hope or doesn't have faith and security in salvation. I said YOU can't look at someone ELSE and say what God will judge. You don't know anything about them, about their heart. The saints say that the first gift of enlightenment is knowing yourself, seeing your own sins. In other words, seeing yourself as you are in the eyes of God. (cf 1 Cor 11:31-32). But at the end of the day, we are all under grace and mercy.Quote:
But it may or may not matter right? This is the same kind of question Calvinist try and avoid. You can lead a faithful life only to find out you weren't part of the elect.
Do you think that God prepared works for only some people or for everyone? Do you think some people were not created for good works? If so, the difference between those who do the works, or hunger and thirst for righteousness and those who don't is the answer. God doesn't force us, or coerce us. He enables us, helps us, precedes us, pulls us back when we stray. We don't get credit for anything except the assent, to be his fellow-workers.Quote:
Correct! and we do the works that God prepared for us. So how in the world do we claim credit for what God gave us?
No, not alone. That's the whole point St Clement made. We are not saved by our own works. These words matter, you can't just omit words. Just like works of the law and works of piety are different, there is a difference between our own works and our works we do in synergy with God.Quote:
We are trying to take credit for something God prepared for us as if we did it on our own. In other words, we set ourselves up as a false idol.
This is such a nonsensical argument.Quote:
So you could then conclude that if/when we are judged, we bring no works to be judged on. What we are left is our faithfulness with which we performed God's commands.
Gator03 said:
Is there an official Lutheran doctrinal statement that supports those magical claims?
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How do you know what works he did, and whether he did them by faith or not? How do you know that "when he had faith" he did everything he could? What if he didn't? What if he never really trusted God, only outwardly went through the motions? What if he never loved God, never even knew Him?
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We don't know. We don't know any of that. No one does, because God judges the heart, not the way people judge. He alone judges, and He alone has mercy or not. He is the one who says "I will show mercy to whom I may show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I may have compassion." You don't know the measure given to Colin. You don't know if Colin was the wise army leader or the foolish tower builder in the eyes of God. You don't know if Colin did 1% of what he should have done or 100%. And so we do not judge, because if God wants him to stand, he will stand.