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Do you think that God prepared works for only some people or for everyone? Do you think some people were not created for good works? If so, the difference between those who do the works, or hunger and thirst for righteousness and those who don't is the answer. God doesn't force us, or coerce us. He enables us, helps us, precedes us, pulls us back when we stray. We don't get credit for anything except the assent, to be his fellow-workers.

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He prepared works for everyone.

It is by faith that we do those works though.

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No, not alone. That's the whole point St Clement made. We are not saved by our own works. These words matter, you can't just omit words. Just like works of the law and works of piety are different, there is a difference between our own works and our works we do in synergy with God.

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Absolutely! I 100% agree with you.

It's not me that's trying to sneak the works back in during "judgement."

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his is such a nonsensical argument.

We were created for works, and we are commanded to do the works, so we do the works, but we don't really do them, we just "perform" them with faithfulness, which comes from faith, except the faith isn't ours anyway, so we don't do anything, or have faith in anything, or believe anything. So there's nothing for us to do, except sit around and hope that we get magic faith, and then that magic faith causes us to do magic works, which we don't do, while doing them.

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So this is the charge most often leveled at Lutheran's. We advocate doing nothing because we are saved by grace.

This is why swimmer and I will be so adamant that works necessarily follow faith.

In a Lutheran's view, we are saved/justified by God's grace alone. This is our salvation

We are also commanded to do good works by God. We just don't do good works out of fear of salvation or to be "good enough." We do them because of our love and faith in God.

Romans 6:

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What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

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Ephesians 2:10

And of course James 2

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14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[b] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

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Terrifying? Good, it should be terrifying. The consequences of our actions are the only thing that could possibly matter in our lives. St St Paul says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Therefore, since we know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men." Just as the Psalm says, "But with you there is forgiveness so that you may be feared." Or Jesus Christ, "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

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Only God knows Colin's heart. You're putting a bunch of unnecessary "if statements" in there for really no reason. God knows his heart. But again, this is pure Calvinism.

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Why do you say they are unnecessary? These are the questions that will be answered at the judgment. He never once says, the sheep are the people who believed in me, the goats are those who didn't. Here are the verses; you're not arguing against me, you're arguing against scripture.

Did he feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, welcome the stringer, clothe the naked, visit the sick, come to those in prison? (Matthew 25:34-46)

Did Colin do those things with "faith working in love" (Galatians 5:6) or for others to see him like the Pharisee and receive his reward then in full (Matthew 6:2-5)?

Did he do them without love, and gain nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3)?

Did he beat his breast and say, "God, be gracious unto me a sinner" and go away justified? Or was he proud and not (Luke 18:9-14)....

What if he never loved God, never even knew Him? (Matthew 7:15-27)

God judges the heart, not the way people judge. (1 Samuel 16:7, Jeremiah 17:10).

He alone judges, (James 4:12) and He alone has mercy or not. (Isaiah 33:22, Matthew 10:28, James 5:9).

You don't know the measure given to Colin. You don't know if Colin was the wise army leader or the foolish tower builder in the eyes of God. (Luke 14:28-33)


You don't know if Colin did 1% of what he should have done or 100%. And so we do not judge, because if God wants him to stand, he will stand. (Romans 14:4)

They say to work out your salvation (not your justification) in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12-13)
We also know God is merciful, and just; that He does not mark iniquities, and with Him there is forgiveness. (Psalm 130:3-4)

So... why are they unnecessary questions? They are the questions. As St James says, "So speak and so act as being about to be judged by the Law of freedom. For judgment without mercy will be to the one who has not shown mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. What is the profit, my brothers, if anyone says to have faith, but has no works? Is faith able to save him?...do you want to come to know, O foolish man, that faith apart from works is worthless?"

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God is all-knowing and outside of time. He knows what Colin will do before Colin is born.

You're now suggesting that a God, outside of time and all knowing is going to set a level of works for Colin that He knows Colin won't meet?

That's pure monergism. Ironically, this view makes Lutheran's much more synergist.

And free will is not impacted one way or the other. I'm not saying that God is causing Colin to do things that will cause him to end up falling short. He already knows what Colin will or won't do.

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God is all-knowing and outside of time. He knows what Colin will do before Colin is born.
Yeah.

You're now suggesting that a God, outside of time and all knowing is going to set a level of works for Colin that He knows Colin won't meet?
No, I did not suggest that.

I believe that teleoligically every person is destined for salvation. Not one single person was created for anything else other than union with God. God loves each and every person, and Jesus Christ died both for all mankind and for every human being. He took away the sin of the whole world. (No limited atonement).

I did not suggest that God set some kind of minimum merit score. I have repeatedly said we are not saved by works, but faith working through love. What I am saying, is that we live our lives in freedom, absolute freedom, to "take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of us," to "hunger and thirst for righteousness," to "seek glory, honor, and immortality" OR to be "self-seeking and reject the truth and follow wickedness," to "delight in wickedness."

And only God knows our hearts. It is not a one-time thing or binary thing. He's not standing up there with a pencil and an eraser writing a name down then erasing it every time a person waffles between belief or not, flipping them back and forth between being justified and unjustified. He's not tallying up points, calculating a debt, and then saying "heyo, sorry bud, you just needed fifteen more good deed schrutebucks to make it. cya!" That is not what the scriptures say. He doesn't condemn the man with one talent and reward the one with ten. He says they are both good servants. It's not an absolute value game. But it does matter what we have! "Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him." (Luke 8:18)

You simply cannot argue that the scriptures DO say that we are judged by what we do. Particularly in how we treat others, because that is what Love is. He is a good Judge, the only Judge, and His judgment is perfect, righteous, and merciful. He has a steadfast love and mercy for us, but He is still righteous and blameless in His judgment (Psalm 51). At the judgment, there will be no appeals, because it will be quite obvious that what He says is true. There will be no hiding or lies. Our deeds will be revealed as they truly are, not the way people might see them (Matthew 10:26, 1 Corinthians 3:13, Luke 8:17).

Faith and love and action and doing and being all get wrapped up into this one thing, a holistic unity with and identity in God, as much oneness as the Son and the Spirit and the Father are One (John 17:22). That is what salvation is, to be totally identified with who we are in Christ Jesus, to grow up to the full measure (Ephesians 4:13), to attain to completion or perfection in Christ (Colossians 1:28).


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God's existence outside of time and foreknowledge of outcomes is true for everyone, believers and not. If you believe this, and you believe that justification is salvation, that it is done without any action on man's part, and that not all will be justified, then God in his foreknowledge and sovereignty gives salvation to some and not others. Yes? No?

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It is by faith that we do those works though.

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Cool, welcome to Orthodoxy.

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In a Lutheran's view, we are saved/justified by God's grace alone. This is our salvation.

We are also commanded to do good works by God. We just don't do good works out of fear of salvation or to be "good enough." We do them because of our love and faith in God.

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You don't get to make up your own standard for salvation. Salvation is a word, it has a meaning. It is a different word than justify. They are not the same thing. Watch how the tenses are changed back and forth:

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Give heed to yourself and to the teaching. Continue in them; for doing this, you will save both yourself and those hearing you.

Do you think St Paul thought of himself as unsaved or unjustified? Salvation and justification are simply not the same thing in the scriptures. They just aren't.
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Romans 6 asks a question, and yes, by no means are we to continue in sin. But what is the answer to that rhetorical question? Baptism. And what after?

Romans 6:22 says
But now, having been set free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end is eternal life.

This is the whole point. Having been justified, having become slaves to God, we possess our benefit or fruit UNTO holiness, leading into holiness, hagiasmon, sanctificationl; and the end, telos, the outcome, the purpose for which the process exists, is eternal life.

You can't say "well we just do good things because we are supposed to". That is not what Romans 6:22 says. Or any other scripture. The end, the telos, the culmination, is eternal life.

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That James 2 translation is sketchy. It does not say "Can that faith save him" as in, can a faith without works. It simply says, "Can faith save him?" or "Can the faith save him?"

Reading St John on Philippians 2, came across this on the "work out your salvation". Thought it was good.

So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which works in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

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...For it is impossible for one, who lives devoid of fear, to set forth any high or commanding example; and he said not merely "with fear," but "and with trembling," which is an excessive degree of fear. Such fear had Paul: and therefore he said, I fear "lest having preached to others, I myself should be rejected." (1 Corinthians 9:27)

For if without the aid of fear temporal things can never be achieved, how much less spiritual matters; for I desire to know, who ever learned his letters without fear? Who has become a proficient in any art, without fear? But if, when the devil does not lie in the way, where indolence is the only obstacle, so much of fear is necessary merely in order that we may master that indolence which is natural to us; where there is so fierce a war, so great hindrances, how can we by any possibility be saved without fear?

And how may this fear be produced? If we but consider that God is everywhere present, hears all things, sees all things, not only whatsoever is done and said, but also all that is in the heart, and in the depth of the soul, for "He is quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12), if we so dispose ourselves, we shall not do or say or imagine anything that is evil.

Tell me, if you had to stand constantly near the person of a ruler, would you not stand there with fear? And how standing in God's presence, do you laugh and throw yourself back, and not conceive fear and dread? Let it never be that you despise His patient endurance, for it is to bring you to repentance that He is longsuffering.

Whenever you eat, consider that God is present, for He is present; whenever you are preparing to sleep, or giving way to passion, if you are robbing another, or indulging in luxury, or whatever you are about, you will never fall into laughter, never be inflamed with rage. If this be your thought continually, you will continually be in fear and trembling, forasmuch as you are standing beside the King.

The architect, though he be experienced, though he be perfectly master of his art, yet stands with fear and trembling, lest he fall down from the building. Thou too hast believed, you have performed many good deeds, you have mounted high: secure yourself, be in fear as you stand, and keep a wary eye, lest you fall thence. For manifold are the spiritual sorts of wickedness which aim to cast you down. (cf Ephesians 6:12)

"Serve the Lord with fear, he says, and rejoice unto Him with trembling." (Psalm 2:11) And how is rejoicing compatible with trembling? Yet this, be assured, is the only rejoicing; for when we perform some good work, and such as beseems those who do anything with trembling, then only do we rejoice.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling": he says not "work," but "work out," i.e. with much earnestness, with much diligence; but as he had said, "with fear and trembling," see how he relieves their anxiety: for what does he say? It is "God that works in you."

Fear not because I said, "with fear and trembling." I said it not with this view, that you should give up in despair, that you should suppose virtue to be somewhat difficult to be attained, but that you might be led to follow after it, and not spend yourself in vain pursuits; if this be the case, God will work all things. Do thou be bold; "for it is God that works in you." If then He works, it is our part to bring a mind ever resolute, clenched and unrelaxed. "For it is God that works in you both to will and to work."

"If He does Himself work in us to will, how do you exhort us? For if He works Himself even the will, the words, which you speak to us, have no meaning, 'that you have obeyed'; for we have not 'obeyed'; it is without meaning that you say, 'with fear and trembling'; for the whole is of God."

It was not for this that I said to you, "for it is He that works in you both to will and to work," but my object was to relieve your anxiety. If you will, in that case He will "work in you to will." Be not frightened, you are not worsted; both the hearty desire and the accomplishment are a gift from Him: for where we have the will, thenceforward He will increase our will. For instance, I desire to do some good work: He has wrought the good work itself, and by means of it He has wrought also the will. Or he says this in the excess of his piety, as when he declares that our well-doings are gifts of grace.

As then, when he calls these gifts, he does not put us out of the pale of free will, but accords to us free will, so when he says, "to work in us to will," he does not deprive us of free will, but he shows that by actually doing right we greatly increase our heartiness in willing. For as doing comes of doing, so of not doing comes not doing.


Have you given an alms? You are the more incited to give. Have you refused to give? You have become so much the more disinclined. Have you practiced temperance for one day? You have an incitement for the next likewise. Have you indulged to excess? You have increased the inclination to self-indulgence. "When a wicked man comes into the depth of vice, then he despises." (Proverbs 18:3) As, then, when a man comes into the depth of iniquity, he turns a despiser; so when he comes into the depth of goodness, he quickens his exertions. For as the one runs riot in despair, so the second, under a sense of the multitude of good things, exerts himself the more, fearing lest he should lose the whole.

"For His good pleasure," he says, that is, for love's sake, for the sake of pleasing Him; to the end that what is acceptable to Him may take place; that things may take place according to His will. Here he shows, and makes it a ground of confidence, that He is sure to work in us, for it is His will that we live as He desires we should, and if He desires it, He Himself both works in us to this end, and will certainly accomplish it; for it is His will that we live aright. Do you see, how he does not deprive us of free will?

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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230208.htm

I came here to call you out for omitting that final clause earlier in the thread, but you beat me to it.

This passage from Romans 5 speaks of justification and salvation as distinct events: we have been justified; we will be saved. It also implies that there is a direct causal link between the two: if justified, also saved. There's nothing else in the middle.

The always-quotable David Bentley Hart:
https://aeon.co/ideas/the-gospels-of-paul-dont-say-what-you-think-they-say

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Ask, for instance, the average American Christian say, some genial Presbyterian who attends church regularly and owns a New International Version of the Bible what gospel the Apostle Paul preached. The reply will fall along predictable lines: human beings, bearing the guilt of original sin and destined for eternal hell, cannot save themselves through good deeds, or make themselves acceptable to God; yet God, in his mercy, sent the eternal Son to offer himself up for our sins, and the righteousness of Christ has been graciously imputed or imparted to all who have faith.

Some details might vary, but not the basic story. And, admittedly, much of the tale's language is reminiscent of terms used by Paul, at least as filtered through certain conventional translations; but it is a fantasy. It presumes elements of later Christian belief absent from Paul's own writings. Some of these (like the idea that humans are born damnably guilty in God's eyes, or that good deeds are not required for salvation) arise from a history of misleading translations.

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Paul's actual teachings, however, as taken directly from the Greek of his letters, emphasise neither original guilt nor imputed righteousness (he believed in neither), but rather the overthrow of bad angels. A certain long history of misreadings especially of the Letter to the Romans has created an impression of Paul's theological concerns so entirely alien to his conceptual world that the real Paul occupies scarcely any place at all in Christian memory. It is true that he addresses issues of 'righteousness' or 'justice', and asserts that this is available to us only through the virtue of pistis 'faith' or 'trust' or even 'fidelity'. But for Paul, pistis largely consists in works of obedience to God and love of others. The only erga, 'works', which he is anxious to claim make no contribution to personal sanctity, are certain 'ritual observances' of the Law of Moses, such as circumcision or kosher dietary laws. This, though, means that the separation between Jews and gentiles has been annulled in Christ, opening salvation to all peoples; it does not mean (as Paul fears some might imagine) that God has abandoned his covenant with Israel.

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Questions of law and righteousness, however, are secondary concerns. The essence of Paul's theology is something far stranger, and unfolds on a far vaster scale. For Paul, the present world-age is rapidly passing, while another world-age differing from the former in every dimension heavenly or terrestrial, spiritual or physical is already dawning. The story of salvation concerns the entire cosmos; and it is a story of invasion, conquest, spoliation and triumph. For Paul, the cosmos has been enslaved to death, both by our sin and by the malign governance of those 'angelic' or 'daemonian' agencies who reign over the earth from the heavens, and who hold spirits in thrall below the earth. These angelic beings, these Archons, whom Paul calls Thrones and Powers and Dominations and Spiritual Forces of Evil in the High Places, are the gods of the nations. In the Letter to the Galatians, he even hints that the angel of the Lord who rules over Israel might be one of their number. Whether fallen, or mutinous, or merely incompetent, these beings stand intractably between us and God. But Christ has conquered them all.

In descending to Hades and ascending again through the heavens, Christ has vanquished all the Powers below and above that separate us from the love of God, taking them captive in a kind of triumphal procession. All that now remains is the final consummation of the present age, when Christ will appear in his full glory as cosmic conqueror, having 'subordinated' (hypetaxen) all the cosmic powers to himself literally, having properly 'ordered' them 'under' himself and will then return this whole reclaimed empire to his Father. God himself, rather than wicked or inept spiritual intermediaries, will rule the cosmos directly. Sometimes, Paul speaks as if some human beings will perish along with the present age, and sometimes as if all human beings will finally be saved. He never speaks of some hell for the torment of unregenerate souls.

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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So you mean the 3 uses of the law? If so, yes, I'm sure, let me get to my comp to find quotes.

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No, I was referring to Jordan Cooper (starting around minute 48 I believe) stating that it is hard to attack Orthodoxy since it is fuzzy and one Orthodox believer will say "well I believe the opposite" on some Orthodox theological point.

His point (I think) was that Western churches are much more clear and consistent in their theology since they have confessional statements.

I found this statement surprising, because I've found the exact opposite to be true.

Im really really not trying to be obtuse I swear. You would like official Lutheran doctrinal statements regarding EO inconsistencies? Or official Lutheran doctrinal statements on justification?

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Im really really not trying to be obtuse I swear. You would like official Lutheran doctrinal statements regarding EO inconsistencies? Or official Lutheran doctrinal statements on justification?

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No, I was asking to see the Lutheran Confessional documentation on magic since JC implies at minute 48 that Lutheran theology (or Catholic theology, or Presbyterian theology, or any other Western theology) is much tighter than Orthodox theology. I was just messing with you!

I feel so dense. I gotcha.
Sorry!

DVC2010 said:

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This passage from Romans 5 speaks of justification and salvation as distinct events: we have been justified; we will be saved. It also implies that there is a direct causal link between the two: if justified, also saved. There's nothing else in the middle.

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I agree that they are distinct events. That's the point I'm making, because other folks are saying they're the same thing. They're not. They're clearly different.

I also agree that there is a direct causal link between them. The saving work of Jesus Christ is the only way and means of reconciliation between mankind and God. And, the saving work of Jesus Christ is the only way and means of salvation. In other words, the direct causal link between justification and perfection and sanctification and salvation is Jesus Christ.

I don't know that we can say there is nothing in the middle though. I don't think that is either given in this evidence, or precluded. I don't think St Paul is teaching about the mechanics or process of salvation here.

He makes three awesome almost catechetical statements about Christ's death (reading these are so powerful!)

• When we were still without strength, he died for the ungodly.
• When we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
• When we were still enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His son.

And there are also three kind of promise statements that go with those:

• God demonstrates His love to us (I love how this is in the present tense, even though the event is past tense!)
• We will be saved by Him from wrath
• We will be saved in His Life

I think the obvious takeaway frpm the first three is that we are reconciled against all hope, when we had nothing to offer, we had no position, we hadn't even asked, and even if we wanted it we would have been helpless to do it.

The second three show God loves us actively by the sacrifice, that it wasn't a single demonstration but a continuous one. And that not only is Christ the accomplisher and do-er of our justification, he is also the do-er of our salvation. We will be saved by Him, we will be saved in His life. He does both, justification, and perfection. Or as the scriptures say, He is our Salvation (Psalm 62:2, Isaiah 12:2, Psalm 35:3).

This passage shows how He is our Justification - by His death. But it does not say how He is our perfecter. It just says He will do it, we will be saved by Him, and we will be saved in His life. Not saying this by itself is an argument for or against something in the middle; I just don't think we can say either way.

k2aggie07 said:

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DVC2010 said:

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This passage from Romans 5 speaks of justification and salvation as distinct events: we have been justified; we will be saved. It also implies that there is a direct causal link between the two: if justified, also saved. There's nothing else in the middle.

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I agree that they are distinct events. That's the point I'm making, because other folks are saying they're the same thing. They're not. They're clearly different.

I also agree that there is a direct causal link between them. The saving work of Jesus Christ is the only way and means of reconciliation between mankind and God. And, the saving work of Jesus Christ is the only way and means of salvation. In other words, the direct causal link between justification and perfection and sanctification and salvation is Jesus Christ.

I don't know that we can say there is nothing in the middle though. I don't think that is either given in this evidence, or precluded. I don't think St Paul is teaching about the mechanics or process of salvation here.

He makes three awesome almost catechetical statements about Christ's death (reading these are so powerful!)

• When we were still without strength, he died for the ungodly.
• When we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
• When we were still enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His son.

And there are also three kind of promise statements that go with those:

• God demonstrates His love to us (I love how this is in the present tense, even though the event is past tense!)
• We will be saved by Him from wrath
• We will be saved in His Life

I think the obvious takeaway frpm the first three is that we are reconciled against all hope, when we had nothing to offer, we had no position, we hadn't even asked, and even if we wanted it we would have been helpless to do it.

The second three show God loves us actively by the sacrifice, that it wasn't a single demonstration but a continuous one. And that not only is Christ the accomplisher and do-er of our justification, he is also the do-er of our salvation. We will be saved by Him, we will be saved in His life. He does both, justification, and perfection. Or as the scriptures say, He is our Salvation (Psalm 62:2, Isaiah 12:2, Psalm 35:3).

This passage shows how He is our Justification - by His death. But it does not say how He is our perfecter. It just says He will do it, we will be saved by Him, and we will be saved in His life. Not saying this by itself is an argument for or against something in the middle; I just don't think we can say either way.

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There have been a couple of different debates going in here: (1) are justification and salvation synonymous, and (2) what is the role of sanctification/works in salvation. I was referring to a comment on one to address the other. That was ambiguous, and I apologize for the confusion.

Regarding the first point, I don't think any of us disagree all that much. I think we are talking about different aspects of salvation. In Ephesians 2, Paul writes of having been saved in the past. Can we agree that we were saved from the guilt of our sin (Romans 8:1), are being saved from our tendency toward sin (this chapter is showing up everywhere today: Philippians 2:12-13) and will be saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9)?

Your commentary on that passage was really well said, by the way.

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I did not suggest that God set some kind of minimum merit score. I have repeatedly said we are not saved by works, but faith working through love. What I am saying, is that we live our lives in freedom, absolute freedom, to "take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of us," to "hunger and thirst for righteousness," to "seek glory, honor, and immortality" OR to be "self-seeking and reject the truth and follow wickedness," to "delight in wickedness."

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You also have said:

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You don't know if Colin did 1% of what he should have done or 100%. And so we do not judge, because if God wants him to stand, he will stand.

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It's just real messy what you are trying to claim.

On one had, there's no merit score, on the other God will judge using some sort of merit score.

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Cool, welcome to Orthodoxy.[/quote

Yes, it is an orthodox (small o) teaching. Not unique to EO at all, though foreign to Rome I think.

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You don't get to make up your own standard for salvation. Salvation is a word, it has a meaning. It is a different word than justify. They are not the same thing. Watch how the tenses are changed back and forth:

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You're right...Luther just made it all up. Granted he was the only one in the west reading the scriptures, but he clearly didn't read anything....

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Romans 6:22 says
But now, having been set free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end is eternal life.

This is the whole point. Having been justified, having become slaves to God, we possess our benefit or fruit UNTO holiness, leading into holiness, hagiasmon, sanctificationl; and the end, telos, the outcome, the purpose for which the process exists, is eternal life.

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True..and it's past tense. We have received the free gift of God in past tense

But we are left with a more basic question. If we are slave to something, whether sin or righteousness. All we are doing is what we are commanded to do and slaves don't get credit for doing their job.

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Gator03 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Im really really not trying to be obtuse I swear. You would like official Lutheran doctrinal statements regarding EO inconsistencies? Or official Lutheran doctrinal statements on justification?

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No, I was asking to see the Lutheran Confessional documentation on magic since JC implies at minute 48 that Lutheran theology (or Catholic theology, or Presbyterian theology, or any other Western theology) is much tighter than Orthodox theology. I was just messing with you!

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There probably is something out there that is unofficial on this subject.

Apparently Melanchthon was real big into astrology at different points of his life. He almost certainly wrote some sort of book on it.

Not canon though

Thanks. I love the paschal homily by St John, the repetition is really powerful. I can imagine a preacher using those three points in the same way. It really is amazingly well written prose.

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Regarding the first point, I don't think any of us agree all that much. I think we are talking about different aspects of salvation. In Ephesians 2, Paul writes of having been saved in the past. Can we agree that we were saved from the guilt of our sin (Romans 8:1), are being saved from our tendency toward sin (this chapter is showing up everywhere today: Philippians 2:12-13) and will be saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9)?

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The truth is St Paul sometimes was sloppy, in a technical sense. He wasn't writing philosophical proofs or theological treatises, I think...he was writing pastoral letters.

Yes, St Paul uses the verb sozo, to save, in past, present, and future tense. He also uses justify in the past and future tense.

I'm not sure that's the only points to say though. We are also saved from death. And, we're not only saved from things but also saved to things. That's important, I think. Too often people talk about what we're saved from (hell, death, whatever) but totally forget what we are saved to: everlasting life, unity, godliness, love, perfection, sanctity, holiness, righteousness, and so on. And that's the issue. Justification is only the saved from part. I think Orthodoxy focuses on what we're saved to, because the saved from part is almost a given for Christians. It is good to know, to have faith and hope and joy because we are secure in what we're saved from. It is also evangelical to talk about what we're saved from. But it is the vast majority of the life of a Christian to be in the saved to, the being saved part. The saved from part begins and ends with baptism, scripturally. Everything else is... everything else.

My godfather told me once that you read the lives of the saints and they're always like, he or she was born to a wealthy family, lived a bad youth, had a saving event...became a saint, did amazing things, and died. But that ... often covers decades! And we rarely have that in the hagiography! I call this life in the ellipsis. It's where we live, it's the Christian experience.

That Montage skips past the weary part

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. And that's the issue. Justification is only the saved from part. I think Orthodoxy focuses on what we're saved to, because the saved from part is almost a given for Christians.

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That's where we find that I don't honestly think the disagreement is that wide of a chasm, but rather a shift in focus. Germans would say white bread before rye. Old school lutherans do talk quite a lot of theosis. Walther especially. Modern Christians focus on the "Saved from" because they are falling off the horse from the other side, reacting to Catholic guilt and Puritan legalism. Kinda what I love about Walther's book Law and Gospel, the balance is beautiful.

There's no difference between the two things you quoted theologically. Both are quotations of scripture. St Paul says don't judge because God will have His servant stand or not. And we don't know, no one does. Nevertheless, we do know the types of things we will be judged on. The gospel writers spent a lot of time quoting Jesus Christ on these matters.

It may be messy, but it's better to have messy difficult truth than neat falsehood. Reality is messy more often than simple. We have to include all of the scripture, not just the parts that are neat.

There is no merit score, but God will judge not by a merit score but by Himself, and by ourselves. He is righteous and His judgment is true. Whatever standard He uses for each person will be the right one, whether that's merit or ontology or whatever.

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Sarcasm about Luther isn't really an argument. We can clearly see that there is a difference in usage between justification and salvation in those passages. Whatever the west may have been reading or not, the Fathers (east and west) and scriptures use the words like this. It may be possible that you are not faithfully reproducing all the nuances of Luther's arguments. I don't think he claimed that salvation and justification had an identity relationship.

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Yup, we received the free gift of justification, so now we have a direction - unto salvation and eternal life.

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All we are doing is what we are commanded to do and slaves don't get credit for doing their job.

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That's not quite how the parables go. It's also not what the scriptures say about judgment and reward. "Credit" is not in the scripture that I know of. Punishment and reward are, though.

That being said, Christian humility and piety demands that we fall down, beg for mercy for our many sins, and confess as Christ told us - "We are unworthy servants; we have done that which we were bound to do."

And so we pray in our daily prayers:
Have mercy on us, O Lord, have mercy on us; for at a loss for any defense, this prayer do we sinners offer unto Thee as Master: have mercy on us.

Lutherans and Mysticism is interesting.
Basically more common ground.

There was an "agree" in my post that was supposed to read "disagree." I fixed it in the original, but I think the context makes the mistake obvious enough.

And that's really all I have to add.

Thanks swimmer. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jordan Cooper claiming that:

1. Luther (in his early writings) and other early Lutherans drew upon mystical writing.
2. Modern Lutherans don't, and sound completely different.
3. The whole philosophical system or way of doing theology is so different now (compared to the early 16th century) that there is "no room for mysticism".
4. There has to be a reclamation of classical philosophy and themes/ideas in order to get back to some engagement with mysticism.

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There's no difference between the two things you quoted theologically. Both are quotations of scripture. St Paul says don't judge because God will have His servant stand or not. And we don't know, no one does. Nevertheless, we do know the types of things we will be judged on. The gospel writers spent a lot of time quoting Jesus Christ on these matters.

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What? There's a massive difference.

On one hand, you want to say we will not be judged on works.

On the other hand, you want to claim an arbitrary merit system that God has that we cannot claim to understand.

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Yup, we received the free gift of justification, so now we have a direction - unto salvation and eternal life.

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Maybe I haven't been as clear as I should have been.

As Swimmer mentioned earlier, Lutheran's aren't OSAS.

Jordan Cooper says it best:


"Notions of salvation as event and process need not be pitted against one another. Justification, in Lutheran (and Pauline) theology, is an event of the past and present, in which God's eschatological verdict of "righteous" is placed on his people in advance.

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That's not quite how the parables go. It's also not what the scriptures say about judgment and reward. "Credit" is not in the scripture that I know of. Punishment and reward are, though.

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Ok..Lets look to the very next verse then.

"The wages of sin are death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What's the price of eternal life? It doesn't pay a wage. We don't earn it, we can't earn it. As Clement said, there's nothing we can bring to the table to justify ourselves. God already gave it to us for free.

And we already know that we've fallen short (Romans 3:23).

So again you are left simultaneously arguing for and against works.

This is the problem I've had with synergism.

You spend so much time at the line of pelagianism that it's more likely you step over at times than not (not you specifically, just a general you). You spend an incredible amount of time trying to nuance that works aren't works yet they are works.

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On one hand, you want to say we will not be judged on works.

On the other hand, you want to claim an arbitrary merit system that God has that we cannot claim to understand.

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Please go read what I wrote again. It's like you got both points backwards.

"the scriptures DO say that we are judged by what we do. "

"There is no merit score"



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A couple of thoughts on the Cooper quote. One, I think a lot of our discussion here is more or less because we are not good at this, people are sloppy in their language, and say stupid things that are incorrect, which causes arguments and confusion where there shouldn't be any. I'm including myself in this.

I like Jordan Cooper, and while I don't agree with everything he says, I think I agree with him a lot more than I agree with some folks on this thread who are trying to argue on his behalf.

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"Notions of salvation as event and process need not be pitted against one another. Justification, in Lutheran (and Pauline) theology, is an event of the past and present, in which God's eschatological verdict of "righteous" is placed on his people in advance

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I think we should break this up.

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Notions of salvation as event and process need not be pitted against one another.

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Absolutely. I think the "need" to do this is because of a rationalization, an attempt to doctrinize or dogmatize and understand something beyond need. Salvation is a mystery that is revealed to Christians through grace. However, it is not exclusively an event, and it is absolutely an error to say that it is. The scriptures do not permit this.

Even though I emphasize that it is a process, that doesn't mean it isn't also spoken of as an event. A dichotomy is not necessary.

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Justification, in Lutheran (and Pauline) theology, is an event of the past and present, in which God's eschatological verdict of "righteous" is placed on his people in advance

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It is also an event of the future ("how much more will we be justified"), which further reinforces the point. However, I'm not sure that this sentence really says anything useful.

The entire issue at hand, the whole disagreement, is not a question of "are the saved saved in the eschaton?" Or "does God foreknow the saved?" Because these are obvious answers, yes and yes. And if we're talking about eschatological frame of reference, the concepts of past, present, and in advance are meaningless. Those are all constraints of time, which doesn't exist eschatologically.

The whole crux of the discussion is how this plays out temporally. However, I am quite happy for us to agree, with Cooper (and the scriptures!) that salvation is not exclusively an event, and that is not exclusively a thing of the past.

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"The wages of sin are death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What's the price of eternal life? It doesn't pay a wage. We don't earn it, we can't earn it. As Clement said, there's nothing we can bring to the table to justify ourselves. God already gave it to us for free.

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Ok, so now the point of confusion is clear.

Every single person is raised to eternal life. I'll say it again: there will be not one dead left in the tomb. The free gift of God is eternal life, which is poured out on all mankind. In Romans 5:18 St Paul says this - "through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." All people are saved from death. In this sense, there was one mighty act of justification that happened exactly once and it absolutely is in the past tense. Every single person will be raised from the dead for judgment (Romans 2:5-8, 2 Cor 5:10, etc). The penalty, the wages of sin are death and death reigned (past tense!) and the free gift to everyone, while we were enemies, was a fulfillment, a cancellation of this debt.

But this is not the entirety of God's saving activity for mankind! This is the beginning of the gospel, not the end or fullness of it. It isn't the end of the story. You're doing exactly what Cooper says we should not.

Consider the unmerciful servant:

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"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

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Pause: justification through the free gift, cancellation of an insurmountable unpayable debt. Note that the slave is free! He owes no further debt to his master, other than that the master does in fact own him (because all things belong to Christ Jesus the King).

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But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.

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Note well the if and the and the does.

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And we already know that we've fallen short (Romans 3:23).

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Yes.

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So again you are left simultaneously arguing for and against works.

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You have missed it, you're glomming it all together. I am arguing for works united with faith as salvific, arguing against works of our own piety or righteousness or by the law or apart from faith or love as useful or salvific. I am arguing for faith as justifying, but against faith without works, i.e., faith alone, as justifying, because faith without works does not exist.

Our own works do not justify us or save us. Works alone are empty and cannot justify or save. Faith working through love saves us, unites us with Christ, regenerates us, renews us, seals us for the promises. We are not saved without regard for what we have done, and this includes both what we do on our own (which is useless, empty, vain, etc) and what we do as a coworker with God, who works in us, in faith, in love. And we are judged not juridically but ontologically; not merely by what we do, but what we do and what we are, what we do and what we are are linked. So if we do works of faith in love, we become united to Christ, we become more like Him, and so actually become righteous as He is righteous, actually become perfect (teleios), etc. We become "partakers of the divine nature" and as St Peter continues because we have what we need to be communicants, FOR THIS REASON

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apply all diligence, supplement into your faith virtue, and into virtue knowledge, and into knowledge self-control, and into self-control endurance, and into endurance godliness, and into godliness brotherly affection, and into brotherly affection love. For these things being in you and abounding, make you neither idle nor unfruitful as to the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For in whomever these things are not present, he is blind, being short sighted, having received forgetfulness of the purification from his former sins.

Therefore, brothers, be diligent, rather, to make your calling and election sure. For practicing these things, never at any time shall you stumble. For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

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You spend so much time at the line of pelagianism that it's more likely you step over at times than not (not you specifically, just a general you). You spend an incredible amount of time trying to nuance that works aren't works yet they are works.

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The scriptures do NOT argue against works. They argue against vain works, empty works, works of the devil, works of sin, works of the law, etc etc etc etc. But they show, again and again, that what we DO matters, and what we DO is works in scriptural language. It is not a difficult thing unless you want to make it into an overly simple "works or faith" "event or process" "man or God" kind of rudimentary set up in a false dichotomy. Then you run into all kinds of opposite errors, because an either or limitation makes both answers wrong.

I don't deny that there are rewards in Heaven. I don't really get how the point system works. Since Christ covers my sins, I know my bad stuff isn't on the scorecard. I struggle enough with getting to the finish line sometimes, that I'm not really worried about how I place. (Acts 20:23) I just concentrate on maintaining my faith and playing to the strong skill set that God called me to: loving the crap out of people and tactfully telling others they are wrong on the internet.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I don't deny that there are rewards in Heaven. I don't really get how the point system works. Since Christ covers my sins, I know my bad stuff isn't on the scorecard. I struggle enough with getting to the finish line sometimes, that I'm not really worried about how I place. (Acts 20:23) I just concentrate on maintaining my faith and playing to the strong skill set that God called me to: loving the crap out of people and tactfully telling others they are wrong on the internet.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but the rewards in Heaven are the easy part! We'll have eternal life and God will provide our needs. We won't chase luxuries, lusts, or status. What does that leave but us?! Our heavenly reward is our close, loving relationships with those we affected in life and those who affected us. While I imagine Heaven is like one big, happy family, I bet there's something just a little different about being around the perfect versions of people we knew in life. That means the path to eternal rewards is to love one another! Who could have guessed? It also means we should value our loving relationships more than anything in this world. Sounds familiar, right? So basically make disciples so they can join you in eternity, make loving relationships with them, and make that your highest priority.

I agree with you and tbh your interpretation makes the most sense to me. However, there is teaching that some people will have more glory in heaven than others.

Well sure. Compare someone like Paul who personally impacted the lives of hundreds and then impacted countless more through his writings to someone like me. Clearly his glory in heaven will be greater than mine, because more eternal saints are going to know, appreciate, respect and love him than they would me.

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Please go read what I wrote again. It's like you got both points backwards.

"the scriptures DO say that we are judged by what we do. "

"There is no merit score"

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I have read what you've said. The problem is synergism causes you to run into inherent contradictions.

Here's a couple other quotes from you:

"We don't know. We don't know any of that. No one does, because God judges the heart, not the way people judge. He alone judges, and He alone has mercy or not. He is the one who says "I will show mercy to whom I may show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I may have compassion." You don't know the measure given to Colin. You don't know if Colin was the wise army leader or the foolish tower builder in the eyes of God. You don't know if Colin did 1% of what he should have done or 100%. And so we do not judge, because if God wants him to stand, he will stand."

'For one, you say we "know" he fell short with his works. How do you know? How do you know what he did or didn't do, and how God views this? Did he feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, welcome the stringer, clothe the naked, visit the sick, come to those in prison? This is what Christ says allows a person to enter into the joy of His rest."

"Whatever standard He uses for each person will be the right one, whether that's merit or ontology or whatever. "

This is the problem you keep having. You want to argue that works are not necessary for salvation, yet you simply can't avoid putting merit back in.

As someone I was listening to yesterday put it, the fair scarier thing would be for someone to think they've done enough. To think they've done 100% of what is expected of them because the answer according to scripture is we've never done enough and never could do enough.

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I like Jordan Cooper, and while I don't agree with everything he says, I think I agree with him a lot more than I agree with some folks on this thread who are trying to argue on his behalf.

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Well that would narrow it down to swimmer or me. So you can just say me, you won't hurt my feelings.

That should be expected though right? We are all amateur's at best while he's a PHD doing this for a living... I would expect him to be better than us at his chosen profession.

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You have missed it, you're glomming it all together. I am arguing for works united with faith as salvific, arguing against works of our own piety or righteousness or by the law or apart from faith or love as useful or salvific. I am arguing for faith as justifying, but against faith without works, i.e., faith alone, as justifying, because faith without works does not exist.

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The problem you continue to have is you're still simultaneously saying works do and don't matter.

So I could summarize your entire point to simply say that without works, you don't have faith.

I don't think you can read Paul's letters and come to that conclusion. You can only come to that conclusion by ignoring Paul and relying on 1-2 verses in James and applying it across the board.

You know that those quotes are scripture right? You bolded questions I have about our actions as if these are preposterous. This is in Matthew 25. What does Christ use to separate the sheep from the goats?

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This is the problem you keep having. You want to argue that works are not necessary for salvation, yet you simply can't avoid putting merit back in.

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I never, ever, ever once said that works are not necessary for salvation. When I say His judgment is righteous, and whatever standard, merit or ontology or whatever - I'm saying, whatever we think or rationalize about this, it is not relevant. However He judges will be right, and perfect, and true. It will be everything: merit, being, faith, actions, desires, and more, because He judges the heart, the whole person. And even then, not as an accuser, but on the basis of what He said as the only way to life, from the Father (John 12:47-50). He is the way to salvation, and our sole hope is in Him, not our own works or works of the Law, and if we trust in them, by them we will be judged (John 5:39,45). This is what the scriptures tell us, that He judges the inner parts, and that He is true, justified, and blameless in His judgment.

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As someone I was listening to yesterday put it, the fair scarier thing would be for someone to think they've done enough. To think they've done 100% of what is expected of them because the answer according to scripture is we've never done enough and never could do enough.

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Again, enough for what? To be justified? Obviously, there is nothing we can do ourselves to be justified. But once entering into justification, we have work to do. Belief is work, and the saving act of justification happens before belief, because He died for us before we believed.

What do you think the judgment is about?

How do you read the parable of the talents?

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The problem you continue to have is you're still simultaneously saying works do and don't matter.

So I could summarize your entire point to simply say that without works, you don't have faith.

I don't think you can read Paul's letters and come to that conclusion. You can only come to that conclusion by ignoring Paul and relying on 1-2 verses in James and applying it across the board.

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I've never said works don't matter. I'm saying works apart from faith are fruitless and give us nothing. Works through faith are fruitful. "But give as alms the things being within, and behold, all things are clean to you."

And no, I am not cherry picking. St Paul often speaks of faith, grace, and actions (works) as being intertwined.

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If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith.

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and unfit for any good work.

Flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

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And not only St Paul, but St John, who more than anyone else advocates belief in Christ Jesus as salvific. What does he say?

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if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

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So yes, quite clearly, no works means no faith. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

It's silly to say I'm using only James. I have quoted or directly reference scripture *a lot* in this discussion. Here's a list of the one's I've used, and these are just the ones I referenced directly or quoted verbatim. There's a lot more that I indirectly paraphrased, not including Titus, 2 Tim, a 1 John in this post.

Matthew 25:34-46
Galatians 5:6
Matthew 6:2-5
1 Corinthians 13:3
Luke 18:9-14

Matthew 7:15-27
1 Samuel 16:7
Jeremiah 17:10
James 4:12
Isaiah 33:22
Matthew 10:28
James 5:9
Luke 14:28-33
Romans 14:4
Philippians 2:12-13
Psalm 130:3-4
Luke 8:18
Psalm 51
Matthew 10:26
1 Corinthians 3:13
Luke 8:17
John 17:22
Ephesians 4:13
Colossians 1:28
Psalm 62:2
Isaiah 12:2
Psalm 35:3
Romans 2:5-8
2 Cor 5:10
2 Peter 1:3

k2aggie07 said:

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By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

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So yes, quite clearly, no works means no faith. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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You and I read this passage differently, I think. I agree that no works means no faith, but that is because faith is the cause and works are the effect. The works do not contribute to justification or to (ultimate) salvation; they are a byproduct of the salvation process.

First, it is important that we focus on where we agree! That the scriptures say quite clearly that not only no works means no faith, but also that bad works are evidence of rejection of the faith. We should temper that by also immediately confessing we should never judge - even ourselves! - as this is for God alone. And so way say, Lord have mercy.

As for the second part, I think you need to rationalize or support this assessment. Works do not contribute to salvation? Then do they not contribute to judgment? Or are judgment and salvation not connected? And we pursue faith through works by being fellow workers with God to make our calling and election sure. Take hold of what we were taken hold for.

I think you need to define salvation and judgment, and I think you will find then the scriptures explicitly do not allow you to separate faith, works, judgment, salvation, unity with God, love of God, love of fellow men, etc. It is all the same thing.

Look at the Lord's Prayer, our most basic kind of catechetical instruction.

His will be done.
What is His will? That "all men be saved and come to knowledge of the truth." And we witness this by our acts, which is to love others, which is the commandment, and if a person doesn't do this and says he knows God, then he is a liar.

On earth.
That is, by us.

As it is in heaven.
Linking us and our work as an extension of Christ's saving work, as His body, His hands and feet, His fellow-workers, as He is in heaven. Thus we fill what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, that we may save some.

Forgive us our debts as we are forgiving our debtors.
Reciprocity of forgiveness based on our action and attitude is a basic core red letter teaching in parables and expanded in the epistles. This is not mere moralizing in the golden rule. This is an ontological law, a reality of the doing-being-continuum as made crystal clear by St John.

This is the core of our faith. You cannot be saved apart from Jesus Christ. And you cannot be with Jesus Christ without love for God, and you cannot love God without loving men, and loving others cannot exist without actions.

k2aggie07 said:

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As for the second part, I think you need to rationalize or support this assessment.

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Fair, but it's going to be a little bit before I have the chance. I hesitated to post even what I did because it's a pretty busy day at my office.

I'm glad for these discussions because they help me express and in some ways understand the whole image better. So I kind of had a good aha moment just now.

The issue philosophically here with separating works from faith is one of separating ontology from activity, separating nature from energy. Philosophically speaking nature is what a thing is, the answer to "what is it?" Energy is how a thing behaves, what a thing does, how it acts. We know a thing by its energies, so this answers "how do you know?" (Aside: the third leg here is person, hypostasis, which answers "who is it?" or "which one?"

A thing cannot have an activity that is not proper to its nature. This is a major theological tenet in our Faith as it has manifold Christological implications (that is, we know Him to be man and God because of His activity as both). We *only* know God by His activities. We don't know or comprehend His nature *at all*.

By the same token, you can't have a thing be what it is and not have the working, energy, whatever, that is proper to that nature. A person who has faith is made righteous, there is a change of nature. Therefore there is a change of activity. If there's not a change in activity, there is no change in nature. And this is reciprocal, activity and nature are simply linked.

So it is nonsensical in this framework to say faith apart from works because this is like saying being a tree apart from having a trunk and leaves and living by photosynthesis. Or being a fish but having no gills and not living in water. Or being a star but not making light.

Does a star become a star by making light? This question is the same as "do works save?" The answer is no. But can a star be a star without making light? This question is "can you be saved with no works?" And the answer is also no.

We can expand from there. "How much light is enough light to be a star?" I don't know - that is judgment. But I do know stars make light, and a thing that does not make light is not a star. Ontology. Not merit, not a sum, not a measurement.