Being gay not a sin?

9,465 Views | 161 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by AG @ HEART
schmendeler
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AG
dermdoc said:

So if God's plan was that the best life is a celibate life would not humanity have disappeared by now? If the "best way" is to be celibate than there would be no Christians. They would have all died out. I think certain people are called to be celibate but not the whole of Christendom.

And if all Eve was supposed to be was a companion, why create her with sexual differences than Adam? God also gives us reason and logic.
the plan for celibacy makes sense if you look at the end game as it was first understood. people were only supposed to be waiting a few years for Jesus' return. Christians dying out isn't very likely when his return is prophesied as being before the generation in Christ's time passes away.

I suggest that these arguments to put Paul's advice into "context" only came about when it was clear that the imminent return wasn't so imminent after all.
swimmerbabe11
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I wrote a poem the other day that alluded psalm 51. A reader who commented had to go read psalm 51..and I'm certain they weren't a Christian from their comments, but they said "fascinating, so God takes no pleasure in suffering, but sees value in a broken spirit"

I thought that was simple and beautiful.

God put good things in this world to enjoy. It shouldn't be a throwaway life. If God didn't care for our pleasures, there would be no color, no good food, no baseball, and there would be no women.
Serotonin
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AG
Great thread. Oldarmy, schmendeler, swimmerbabae, really appreciate the responses. I love these threads and learn a lot.

The problem seems to be the apparent contradiction between Genesis and the New Testament. Specifically, in the New Testament the lives of John the Baptist, Mary, Jesus, and Paul all point to the superiority of celibacy. Isn't Paul very clear about this in his first letter to the Corinthians (chapter 7):

It's because of the "immorality" (7:2) that Paul gives the teaching about men and women marrying, "by way of concession, however, not as a command. Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another." (7:6-7)


Quote:

Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire. (7:8-9)

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I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them, those weeping as not weeping, those rejoicing as not rejoicing, those buying as not owning, those using the world as not using it fully. For the world in its present form is passing away.

I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction. (7:29-35)

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A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes, provided that it be in the Lord. She is more blessed, though, in my opinion, if she remains as she is, and I think that I too have the Spirit of God. (7:39-40)
These teachings are consistent with what k2 outlined above:
Quote:

All Christians, are called to die to the world (Romans 6:8) and live in the world as sojourners and aliens (1 Peter 2:11). All material treasures are a loss, rubbish, refuse (Phil 3:8). Everything means everything. There is nothing from this world that we take beyond death, not our children, not our spouses, or our jobs or houses. It's all rubbish, refuse, loss compared to the knowledge of God.

Isn't this what Christ says? "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26).

I think we forget about this, because it's so hard. It's foolishness to the world, and it's painful. But this is the cross we take up, that we die to ourselves. It's not easy - it's violent (Matthew 11:12), it's a cross. It's also where we find rest, a light load, a joy (Matthew 11:29-30). We have to learn from Him.
Additionally, the Galatians appear to be getting into all sorts of trouble and Paul exhorts them saying that "those who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires." (5:24)

So the teachings to die to the world and not be of the world or attached to worldly things, including sexual passions appear to conflict with Genesis:
Quote:

God blessed them and God said to them: Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. (1:28)

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. (2:24)

To the woman he said: I will intensify your toil in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. (3:16)
Regarding 1:28, after reading more of the Church Fathers and the early Church, I think it can be inferred that Adam and Eve are given the command to procreate, but perhaps it is a passion-less and non-physical act. Does it mirror in some sense Mary/Jesus? Additionally, it is a mystery how child-bearing and child-rearing would work in Paradise where there was no aging, sickness, and death. How would a baby grow older? I think the general point is that there is a lot we don't know about Paradise and how the "day to day" would work.

However, marriage as the post-fall institution that we know is modeled off of Adam and Eve's relationship and for that reason it is good. It is a heresy to say that marriage is bad or that marital relations are bad. Moses makes this point clear in 2:24, which is commentary addressed to Israel in a post-fall world.

Oldarmy makes the excellent point that 3:16 points to the existence or potential of child-birth pre-fall in Paradise. I think this parallels the point the Fathers make above: Everything changed post-fall: Child-birth changed, the relationship between man and woman changed (including the act of martial relations), working changed, etc.
Serotonin
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AG
schmendeler said:

dermdoc said:

So if God's plan was that the best life is a celibate life would not humanity have disappeared by now? If the "best way" is to be celibate than there would be no Christians. They would have all died out. I think certain people are called to be celibate but not the whole of Christendom.

And if all Eve was supposed to be was a companion, why create her with sexual differences than Adam? God also gives us reason and logic.
the plan for celibacy makes sense if you look at the end game as it was first understood. people were only supposed to be waiting a few years for Jesus' return. Christians dying out isn't very likely when his return is prophesied as being before the generation in Christ's time passes away.

I suggest that these arguments to put Paul's advice into "context" only came about when it was clear that the imminent return wasn't so imminent after all.
This is one approach to solving the apparent problem/contradiction, and I think this has found favor with most Protestant and non-Christian scholars. But if that were the case then the teachings of Paul and Jesus to the Church are essentially void, are they not?

craigernaught
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AG
Quote:

the plan for celibacy makes sense if you look at the end game as it was first understood. people were only supposed to be waiting a few years for Jesus' return. Christians dying out isn't very likely when his return is prophesied as being before the generation in Christ's time passes away.

I suggest that these arguments to put Paul's advice into "context" only came about when it was clear that the imminent return wasn't so imminent after all.
I'm confused. Are you criticizing reading Paul contextually? Or are you saying that some of the attempts at contextualizing Paul are attempts to ignore the belief that Jesus's return was imminent?

Because interpreting Paul's statements on celibacy given the belief of an imminent return is reading Paul contextually.
schmendeler
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AG
craigernaught said:

Quote:

the plan for celibacy makes sense if you look at the end game as it was first understood. people were only supposed to be waiting a few years for Jesus' return. Christians dying out isn't very likely when his return is prophesied as being before the generation in Christ's time passes away.

I suggest that these arguments to put Paul's advice into "context" only came about when it was clear that the imminent return wasn't so imminent after all.
I'm confused. Are you criticizing reading Paul contextually? Or are you saying that some of the attempts at contextualizing Paul are attempts to ignore the belief that Jesus's return was imminent?

Because interpreting Paul's statements on celibacy given the belief of an imminent return is reading Paul contextually.
the second one.
craigernaught
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jja79
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AG
You missed my point.
AGC
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AG
This thread just struck me as a bit of a comedy routine. All these married Christian men emphasizing the joy and holiness of celibacy, which stands in direct contradiction to their married states. The secular world jokes about marriage misery, we get to quote scripture at each other instead.

Which is not to conversely 'single out' swimmer. I have a friend that's an lpc in Houston and he says one of the issues that he deals with among grown women is their maturity and discipline through youth, only to arrive at their mid 20s and find out the men they want aren't there. One of the effects of giving school aged children pornboxes with no filter. Boys develop compulsions that for our generation don't exist.
chimpanzee
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AGC said:

This thread just struck me as a bit of a comedy routine. All these married Christian men emphasizing the joy and holiness of celibacy, which stands in direct contradiction to their married states. The secular world jokes about marriage misery, we get to quote scripture at each other instead.

Which is not to conversely 'single out' swimmer. I have a friend that's an lpc in Houston and he says one of the issues that he deals with among grown women is their maturity and discipline through youth, only to arrive at their mid 20s and find out the men they want aren't there. One of the effects of giving school aged children pornboxes with no filter. Boys develop compulsions that for our generation don't exist.

Fair points all around. Celibacy seems like another one of those theoretical ideals that I can kind of get my head around but have never seen lead to anything uniquely positive in practice. The most obvious example one could look to in the here and now, the RCC priesthood, has a very public issue often achieving something close to the opposite in supposed dedication to that exact goal itself. Ideals aren't supposed to be easy, but you wouldn't expect attempting them with good intentions to backfire completely.

The world has tossed out cultural taboos in the last 50-ish years that stood for millennia. Those didn't exist just to keep kids from having fun. We'll adapt, but no one can say reliably how. Even those of us who read and quote scripture won't get all the benefits of a healthy society if our cultural circle that we trust keeps shrinking.

Case in point re:pornboxes. Otherwise "normal" young men have their brains filled with stuff that our culture simply did not allow for in any kind of easily available format and marriage seems like a worse prospect for both men and women.


Zobel
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AG

Quote:

Fair points all around. Celibacy seems like another one of those theoretical ideals that I can kind of get my head around but have never seen lead to anything uniquely positive in practice. The most obvious example one could look to in the here and now, the RCC priesthood, has a very public issue often achieving something close to the opposite in supposed dedication to that exact goal itself. Ideals aren't supposed to be easy, but you wouldn't expect attempting them with good intentions to backfire completely.
Case in point for the tragedy of the destruction of monasticism in the wake of the Reformation.

You've never seen it lead to anything uniquely positive because it basically doesn't exist in the West outside of the Latin clergy.

Celibate folks who led to uniquely positive things:
Our Lord Jesus Christ
The Theotokos
St John the Baptist
St Paul
St Anthony the Great
St Athanasius the Great
St Ambrose
St John Chrysostom
St Basil the Great
St Gregory the Theologian
St Gregory of Nyssa
St John Climacus
St John Cassian
St Leo the Great
St Maximos the Confessor
St Gregory Palamas
St John of Damascus

etc etc etc

Nearly every luminary of the Church, east or west, was a monastic. Particularly noteworthy in the first millennium, because it wasn't until the 1100s or so that the Roman clergy became exclusively celibate.
chimpanzee
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That was the very reason for my "here and now" qualifier. The message of value is harder for me to buy into without an example of contemporary practical application, and as you point out, even the one example I have to work from isn't necessarily based on consistent principle. "This is great, but no one even tries it" just isn't compelling.
Zobel
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AG
I strongly encourage you to go spend a weekend at an Orthodox monastery. Even if you're protestant, a weekend retreat for prayer and solitude is an amazing thing. And monks are probably absolutely nothing like what you expect.
swimmerbabe11
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AGC said:

This thread just struck me as a bit of a comedy routine. All these married Christian men emphasizing the joy and holiness of celibacy, which stands in direct contradiction to their married states. The secular world jokes about marriage misery, we get to quote scripture at each other instead.

Which is not to conversely 'single out' swimmer. I have a friend that's an lpc in Houston and he says one of the issues that he deals with among grown women is their maturity and discipline through youth, only to arrive at their mid 20s and find out the men they want aren't there. One of the effects of giving school aged children pornboxes with no filter. Boys develop compulsions that for our generation don't exist.



I'm not offended. I think there is extra encouragement for single for the same reason there are motivational posters that say things like "no pain, no gain" and "sweat or tears or whatever is weakness leaving the body".

Some people are going to be single forever..and that is a hard pill to swallow. So make the best of it. It's better for these reasons. Like martyrdom! (And yet no one is encouraged to try to be a martyr)
dermdoc
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AG
swimmerbabe11 said:

AGC said:

This thread just struck me as a bit of a comedy routine. All these married Christian men emphasizing the joy and holiness of celibacy, which stands in direct contradiction to their married states. The secular world jokes about marriage misery, we get to quote scripture at each other instead.

Which is not to conversely 'single out' swimmer. I have a friend that's an lpc in Houston and he says one of the issues that he deals with among grown women is their maturity and discipline through youth, only to arrive at their mid 20s and find out the men they want aren't there. One of the effects of giving school aged children pornboxes with no filter. Boys develop compulsions that for our generation don't exist.



I'm not offended. I think there is extra encouragement for single for the same reason there are motivational posters that say things like "no pain, no gain" and "sweat or tears or whatever is weakness leaving the body".

Some people are going to be single forever..and that is a hard pill to swallow. So make the best of it. It's better for these reasons. Like martyrdom! (And yet no one is encouraged to try to be a martyr)

My time with the Lord says that you will not be single forever. And it will happen when you least expect it. God is good, He loves you, so you can trust Him. All in His time.
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swimmerbabe11
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Double post!
swimmerbabe11
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Im off to be a witness at my friend's secret wedding now. Feeling very st. Valentine this morning

Thank you Derm
dermdoc
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AG
Don't thank me, thank the Lord. He is the one who will make it happen. In His time.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
swimmerbabe11
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I recently (an hour ago) found this blog by Matthew Pierce which is hilarious and probably offensive if you get offended easily. He tackles the Adam and Eve situation brilliantly

http://matthewepierce.com/were-adam-and-eve-allowed-to-look-at-each-others-privates/
PacifistAg
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AG
Matthew Pierce is a great follow on twitter as well.

DVC2010
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AG
All of his self-referential links have led me down one huge rabbit hole this afternoon. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:

Regardless, if we don't act now, leggings will spread to our Protestant colleges and seminaries. Theology vape boys will get mindboners. Praise bros will stop playing worship songs and start playing "Wonderwall" on their guitars. And homeschool boys will say things like "Call me Balaam, because that ass is speaking to me."
swimmerbabe11
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He's basically my Christian spirit animal.

The article on breastfeeding had me howling.
http://matthewepierce.com/is-it-a-sin-for-christian-women-to-breastfeed-in-my-kitchen/

Quote:

A long time ago, there was a famous Christian graphic artist named Michelangelo (named after the ninja turtle, v good branding imo). This was before coffee bars and industrial deco, so whenever Hillsong or whatever megachurch needed to make their building look hip they'd tweet at him like "come paint some cool stuff" and Michelangelo would tweet back "k" and he'd go and paint a bunch of naked people, just wieners and bosoms and butts all over the walls and everywhere. For a while Christians were chill about it, because back then everyone died by the age of 30 from a sinus infection or whatever, so what was the point of even getting offended.
AG @ HEART
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Ordhound04 said:

Same Sex attraction is not the same as being a person who practices homosexuality.

Also, a person who engages in any sex outside a sacramental marriage is considered to be engaging in grave sin.

The issue, often, is not teaching, but emphasis. The same people who would condemn the mere attraction as sinful would, probably, also call premarital intercourse to be "a bit of fun".

The problem also lays with how we operationally define "Being Gay".

Fundamentally sexual intercourse outside of marriage, or even a committed relationship, is, on some level, is the de-humanization of a person to a mere object of physical pleasure. Even if we stipulate a rite of matrimony for same sex relationships, sexual relations outside of it is, fundamentally, dehumanizing.


Short answer ANY sex outside the confines of the marriage God intended is considered sin.
 
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