There is some bad language used.
7nine
I think the only utility provided by "justice" in a case like that is satisfaction of the feelings of retribution and perhaps a deterrence to others. but if what sam harris is talking about is correct, then the effect as a deterrent is much over-stated, because these people then aren't acting fully of their own "agency". which leaves us with satisfaction of our personal feelings that "they didn't get away with it".Frok said:
Very true. Maybe a better example would be priests or pastors who sexually abused kids many years ago. Many are old or dead now. Why go after them now? Justice. The wrong needs to be righted. The sense of justice is innate in us.
I don't think these concepts can fully be explained materially.
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He doesn't owe his victims time in jail because he never truly made the decision to do the things he did.
With me, it is not about closure or revenge. It is simply justice.Texaggie7nine said:
If you require someone that harmed you or someone you love to be punished in order to have closure, then you are no different than the people in Harris' story that lynched the elephant.
So the individual has zero responsibility?Texaggie7nine said:
As Sam likes to point out often. If we can all agree that there is an ultimate bad for everyone, that being everyone in pain and misery at all times, then we can all agree on an axiomatic good and bad were bad is anything leading to that ultimate bad and good is anything leading us away from it.
I do not see it that way at all. I see it more that there is absolute right and wrong and therefore justice would mean consequences for wrong behavior. Not to appease "me".Texaggie7nine said:
But what is "justice"? An eye for an eye? If you cause someone pain, then you need to experience pain?
If someone slighted the great and mighty "you" then they must pay with suffering?
That is the justice most see the god of the bible advocating for.
That is all ego driven and I would never follow a god with such ego.
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I do not see it that way at all. I seemit more that there is absolute right and wrong and therefore justice would mean consequences for wrong behavior. Not to appease "me".
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But what is "justice"? An eye for an eye? If you cause someone pain, then you need to experience pain?
If someone slighted the great and mighty "you" then they must pay with suffering?
That is the justice most see the god of the bible advocating for.
That is all ego driven and I would never follow a god with such ego.
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So jealousy then? If I suffered for making a mistake, then dammit you should too!? Or if you caused me loss of liberty, then dammit you should suffer that too!?
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Of course I suffer from ego driven emotion. I would never follow me as a god. I would expect the creator of all things to be superior to me in that if I were to follow them.
dermdoc said:So the individual has zero responsibility?Texaggie7nine said:
As Sam likes to point out often. If we can all agree that there is an ultimate bad for everyone, that being everyone in pain and misery at all times, then we can all agree on an axiomatic good and bad were bad is anything leading to that ultimate bad and good is anything leading us away from it.
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Essentially. You don't think this is true? People want to know that their falling in line was the right thing to do.