Ok good there is a reason given there. I won't dispute the rationality apparent in much of our explanations of the physical universe. One final question and then I'll just make the statement about where I'm going with this.


Is the doubt you experience about whether or not something is true/real/accurate/etc. the same sort of doubt about whether or not a decision is right? It could be "right for you" or just "right" in a general sense. It could be "right" in a moral sense. Is your experience of doubt mostly the same in these cases?

Is the doubt you experience about whether or not something is true/real/accurate/etc. the same sort of doubt about whether or not a decision is right? It could be "right for you" or just "right" in a general sense. It could be "right" in a moral sense. Is your experience of doubt mostly the same in these cases?

I would say no. Because doubting whether a decision is right, at least when it doesn't come to answering a question about something that is a fact, is more manageable because there isn't logically a correct answer. There are definitely better and worse decisions, but because of the nature of reality and time, different decisions can lead to so many different outcomes in so many different things that there is no way to truly say that a certain decision was 100% TRUE, or factually correct.

Should I have taken a different career path? Should I have not married? There is no factual answer to these things.

When I feel there is a definite factual answer to something like "does God exist" or "how did the universe come to be" then doubt is a much more serious issue to my mind, and one that I constantly try to figure out.

and don't friggin turn this into a "so why not doubt racial equality" or some such sentiment. :P

Macarthur said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Macarthur said:

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diehard03 said:

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Quote:

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This, big time. It really is liberating.

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I am sorry you feel that not believing is liberating. At least for Christianity, I would disappointed most likely if I was given irrefutable evidence that it wasn't true and probably follow along with many of the tenets regardless. (that's easy to say not having this evidence, I know)

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Sure.

I feel the need to clarify something here. By liberating, I certainly don't mean I feel free to 'do things now that I otherwise wouldn't'. In fact, my day to day life has changed virtually none.

When I use the term liberated, I'm talking more about the emotional baggage and guilt that faith systems heap upon people. By telling people they are worthless and in need of a savior causes a great deal of damage, IMO. The liberating part is now knowing that when I do make a mistake, I'm simply human and do my best to make amends for it and move along.

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Oh man, you and I have much different perspectives on this. I find that the forgiveness and absolution Christianity gives is far more effective than any shrugging it off I have seen outside. I have lots of friends who struggle a whole lot with loving themselves and the comfort of knowing unconditional love and forgiveness exist..very much keeps my head above water many days.

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So, for the sake of conversation, what is so bad about you that you feel as though you need salvation and that thought regularly "keeps your head above water"? What is it that you do that is so bad?

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For the sake of not wanting to go into my own angsty melodrama.. Everyone has days that they fail. One of the people I know who struggled with this the most is an Objectivist. That is more or less, his religion. There is no forgiveness if you are less than amazing. Only those that are "successful" have worth. I feel the weight of not being where I want to be in life right now, but it doesn't define me, because I have the love of God to define me.

Plenty of people hate themselves for their flaws. Where do they find forgiveness from?

I think understanding how we are mostly just a result of biology and environment, then it becomes much easier to deal with flaws. Especially in others.

Same way you can't stay angry at dogs for long.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Is the doubt you experience about whether or not something is true/real/accurate/etc. the same sort of doubt about whether or not a decision is right? It could be "right for you" or just "right" in a general sense. It could be "right" in a moral sense. Is your experience of doubt mostly the same in these cases?

I would say no. Because doubting whether a decision is right, at least when it doesn't come to answering a question about something that is a fact, is more manageable because there isn't logically a correct answer. There are definitely better and worse decisions, but because of the nature of reality and time, different decisions can lead to so many different outcomes in so many different things that there is no way to truly say that a certain decision was 100% TRUE, or factually correct.

Should I have taken a different career path? Should I have not married? There is no factual answer to these things.

When I feel there is a definite factual answer to something like "does God exist" or "how did the universe come to be" then doubt is a much more serious issue to my mind, and one that I constantly try to figure out.

and don't friggin turn this into a "so why not doubt racial equality" or some such sentiment. :P

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I'm not that person.

In any event, I'm fairly certain that doubt in all cases, is roughly the same. That is, doubt entails a feeling of doubt. Not an emotion, though it could as well. Evidence is piling up that emotion or feeling (what we call sometimes affect) is critical to our thinking processes of all sorts. System 1 (the conscious system), when possible, is extraordinarily difficult for people to to use. In other words, we may think we are rational, or hold reason up as our standard for determining truth, but at the end of the day, even things we "think" are rational are influenced by unconscious, irrational processes.

To be clear, this isn't an argument to toss out reason, nor is it an argument to simply "go with your feelz." Instead, it is an argument that we shouldn't discount the contribution of "feeling" to our conclusions and is also an argument that it may even be critical in many cases. Now, the real question is, if we must rely to some degree on unconscious, irrational processes even in cases we feel like we're being rational, what constitutes a "true" feeling and what constitutes a "false" feeling?

**** if I know.

Texaggie7nine said:

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I think understanding how we are mostly just a result of biology and environment, then it becomes much easier to deal with flaws. Especially in others.

Same way you can't stay angry at dogs for long.

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Oh many, it is way easier for me to be patient with other people's flaws than my own

There are no good people or evil people. People are people. Actions are either good or evil.

Love the sinner

Hate the sin

Love the right actions and righteousness.

I think mindfulness helps to filter out the emotional static interference in the signal of decision making. When you train your brain to recognize emotional input on thinking when dealing with decision making it gets easier and easier to recognize it and filter it out.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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I think understanding how we are mostly just a result of biology and environment, then it becomes much easier to deal with flaws. Especially in others.

Same way you can't stay angry at dogs for long.

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Oh many, it is way easier for me to be patient with other people's flaws than my own

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I am the same way. Maybe that is why I need a Savior so badly.