1054 AD?Quote:
At what point do we just shut down the Catholic Church
Presuming to know more than God is dangerous.AgLiving06 said:
Who's we?
The easiest way to "shut down the Catholic Church" is to offer a "better option" for following what God and Jesus gave us.
And personally, I already see several better options today.
Canchurian Manidate said:Presuming to know more than God is dangerous.AgLiving06 said:
Who's we?
The easiest way to "shut down the Catholic Church" is to offer a "better option" for following what God and Jesus gave us.
And personally, I already see several better options today.
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That is entirely up to Catholics. If they are comfortable with their present church leadership, there is not much you can do about it.
Not exactly. If they are accused of actual crimes, we can utilize the secular/temporal authority (i.e. law enforcement) to arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate. And this needs to be done.diehard03 said:Their beliefs don't allow them to do anything. One cannot make an argument on authority and then challenge that authority in the next breath.Quote:
That is entirely up to Catholics. If they are comfortable with their present church leadership, there is not much you can do about it.
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Not exactly. If they are accused of actual crimes, we can utilize the secular/temporal authority (i.e. law enforcement) to arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate. And this needs to be done.
As to canonical crimes or vow breaking, the powers that be have it rigged... much like the lack of term limits our congress critters mostly don't want. Here, all we have left is financial support (I mean, lack thereof).
That's laudable, but you do realize that the entrenched cabal of predators at the top of the RCC are basically counting on this? Why would they ever change or hold anyone accountable if the majority of Catholics are cradle to grave no matter what?Dad-O-Lot said:
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
Frankly, they will die.ramblin_ag02 said:That's laudable, but you do realize that the entrenched cabal of predators at the top of the RCC are basically counting on this? Why would they ever change or hold anyone accountable if the majority of Catholics are cradle to grave no matter what?Dad-O-Lot said:
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
Bishop David Konderla is a true light of the church, wonderful facebook follow if you are so inclined.Dad-O-Lot said:Frankly, they will die.ramblin_ag02 said:That's laudable, but you do realize that the entrenched cabal of predators at the top of the RCC are basically counting on this? Why would they ever change or hold anyone accountable if the majority of Catholics are cradle to grave no matter what?Dad-O-Lot said:
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
I can remain faithful to the Church without supporting the evil that exists within some of the hierarchy.
Many of the younger priests coming up are much more conservative.
Many of the Seminaries have made changes over the last decade which should improve the next generation of Priests.
To tell the truth, I am heartened by the fact that at least 2 Aggies have been raised to the level of Bishop in the last few years. There are good Bishops out there. They need the support of the laity, and those who are not so good, deserve to be called out.
You don't see this same phenomenon in the Orthodox church however, whose bishops are at least as powerful (I would argue more powerful) than their Catholic counterparts.ramblin_ag02 said:
I can't find the article, but someone else posted that sexual predation in the Catholic Church goes back at least to Martin Luther. The root problem is not the current leaders and predators, though they are a big problem. The root problem is the all-encompassing "Apostolic Authority" that is at the heart of the Catholic faith. As much as I hate that it's true, it appears that sexual predation, whether homosexual, heterosexual, or pedophilia happens any time individuals or groups get sufficient power. It could be economic, political, military, or religious power. It doesn't seem to matter. The Catholic Church is especially vulnerable due to large amounts of economic, religious, and political power concentrated in a small central group of people.
The solution, IMHO, is to decentralize the control and vastly reduce the economic and political power of the Catholic Church. This would both make it a less attractive place for predators and make it easier to punish predators when they are found. Unfortunately, terms like "humility", "less power", and "less influence" have been anathema to the Catholic Church for the last 1000 years at least
No trying to come across as hostile. I just can't wrap my head around the amount blind loyalty it takes to wholely support an organization after worldwide scandals, plus the list released about their clergy in our own back yard, plus the reports of sex slavery
That's the rub, right? It takes authority to hold authority accountable. So the stronger and more central the authority, the less accountability it has. And I fundamentally disagree anyway. Authority (or power) is the problem. Abuse of power occurs at every level with every conceivable type of power. It's human nature. Magnitudes more power just means magnitudes greater abuse of power.Quote:
It's authority without accountability that is the problem. There is no problem with authority by itself. In my opinion, authority is less effective the more diffuse it is. Accountability works the opposite way. The hypothetical optimum is absolute concentrated authority with total universal accountability. The problem is that the authority then resists accountability.
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I trust Christ and His promise; I have nowhere else to go. That doesn't mean I'll tolerate this type of behavior, however.
Sure it can. But a country can't do it. If the normal Catholic members want it to be shut down, then it can be done. The question really is for normal Catholic members is have you reached the point where the Catholic Church in it's current form should be shut down? At what point does your money and time spent for a Catholic Church turn into aiding and abetting the world's oldest and largest sex abuse organization?Dad-O-Lot said:
Regarding "Shutting down the Catholic Church". It has been tried by many countries throughout history.
Won't happen.