At what point do we just shut down the Catholic Church

10,042 Views | 95 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by jkag89
chimpanzee
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AgLiving06 said:

Can you summarize for those who can't get past the paywall at WSJ?
Cardinal O'Malley was the Vatican's point guy in addressing the abuse scandals in the US, and his relationship with the Pope goes back to his Argentina days.

The article gives the impression that O'Malley's efforts and approach are either ignored or actively undermined by the Vatican. Most pointedly, punishments have been rescinded, committee members have been replaced with more lenient individuals, and the RCC seems to want to slow play the whole thing out of existence where the American bishops are at least taking the situation seriously and attempting some efforts at transparency and positive action. Victims reps have resigned from panels due to inaction,

The McCarrick affair is a particular sticking point, with the Vatican basically stonewalling any questions.

The Church has a lot of the Spirit flowing through it, seems to flow around its leadership though...

ramblin_ag02
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AG
Quote:

The Church has a lot of the Spirit flowing through it, seems to flow around its leadership though...
Do you mind expanding upon this? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I'm not Catholic. I've always been told by Catholics that the reason the Catholic Church is the true church is that the Spirit has guided church leadership in an unbroken line from Peter until now. Again, I'm no Catholic, but to me it seems that the Spirit guides the clergy who then guide the laiety is pretty much the definition of the Catholic Church.
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AGC
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AG
jkag89 said:

bigtruckguy3500 said:

When is the church going to finally let priests marry? That's my question. It's obvious we are all human with natural human desires/wants/needs. I'm pretty confident that would solve much of these issues.
Um so what is the cause of such abuse among churches that belong to the Southern Baptist Convention? Please note I am not posting this to mitigate the abuses of the Catholic Church or cast aspersions upon Baptist but to show it is a wider problem that does not necessarily have simple solutions.

Abuse of Faith: 20 years, 700 victims: Southern Baptist sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms
By Robert Downen, Lise Olsen, and John Tedesco - Houston Chronicle


Structure is the big difference (and conviction rate frankly). Note the constant reference to volunteers rather than just paid staff and the fact that the SBC has no control over individual churches other than kicking them out of the association (which doesn't address the problem). It's not a massive denominational cover-up like the RCC where guilty members are just shifted from church to church. SBC offenders may move but the SBC isn't orchestrating it at any level. It may exist within a church, like say a Watermark or Village with multiple campuses but it's pretty contained at that if it ever happens.

Beyond that the same risk exists for an offender in either the RCC or SBC where predators groom gatekeepers to get access to kids.
jkag89
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Quote:

and conviction rate frankly
Huh?
chimpanzee
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

The Church has a lot of the Spirit flowing through it, seems to flow around its leadership though...
Do you mind expanding upon this? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I'm not Catholic. I've always been told by Catholics that the reason the Catholic Church is the true church is that the Spirit has guided church leadership in an unbroken line from Peter until now. Again, I'm no Catholic, but to me it seems that the Spirit guides the clergy who then guide the laiety is pretty much the definition of the Catholic Church.

Well, full disclosure, I am Catholic, but not a particularly Roman one. I'm not at all a "cultural Catholic", nor do I seek an affiliation with a group just to be part of a group, so I don't cheer anyone's flag.

Some may believe the whole unbroken line from St. Peter thing, but I think the Holy Spirit's influence in the church is not the exclusive franchise of the folks in the Vatican or the guy in the biggest hat. There have been some terrible popes through the years, schisms, etc., so, to the extent there is an unbroken line from the mission that Christ set out for St. Peter through the RCC, it had to persist despite the leadership and clergy for centuries at a time, it is not still there because of them.

No person gets to decide what God's church is, God does. That the RCC has survived its history and remains an entity is evidence to me of divine mercy, and there are a great majority of Roman Catholic leaders that are absolutely dedicated to bringing Christ to the world and those in it closer to Him, but they are certainly not the only ones.
dg77ag
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The gates of hell shall not prevail. History is our teacher, there have been many times in the life of the church over the last 2000 years that evil has attempted to destroy the church from without and within. It succeeds because man can be tempted and fall, we all know this. Our Lord always raises up someone or some group to renew the church, look to the life of St. Catherine of Siena as one example when things looked dire. Our Lord will not abandon his precious flock.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Thanks for the reply. I can understand that
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AG Custom
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AG
Those in the Catholic faith who have failed in these scandals and cover-ups do so not because of the Catholic faith but because they have fallen away from the faith and its teaching.

If you don't think that there are many many many priests who are extremely upset and saddened by the scandals and the cover-ups (as well as millions and millions of followers) than you are 100% wrong! Many are sick, frustrated, mad, and saddened at what has transpired (as am I).

I don't condone any of it, i don't think they should be above any and all legal action, i don't think that those who have fallen in this way should be allowed to teach or lead in the Church, but regardless it doesn't change my views on the teachings of the Catholic faith. Over the 2000 years of the Church there have been many errors and mistakes by men who have fallen away from the true faith teachings of the church.

The doctrines and teachings of the church are pure. The doctrines and teachings of the church are not reasons for these actions nor reasons that the church should be "shut down", but simply a reaction to the sickening acts. They are the actions of those who have fallen away from the faith but those actions do not represent the faith.

While i can see how people can mistaken this as being indicative of what the church teaches and represents, it is simply not true. I can see how it may shake the faith of some of the followers, but i would encourage those followers to dig deeper and learn more about the true teachings of the church.

This Pope sure wasn't my first pick and I don't at all agree with some of comments and actions, but good thing is that i don't have to agree with him. Common misconceptions is that Catholics believe the Pope papal infallibility at all times and that we don't think he sins....that simply is not true. The only time the Pope had papal infallibility is when he makes a solemn decree ex cathedra (or "From the seat"). The decree must be made on matters of faith and morals, must be binding to the whole church, and the Pope must be speaking with the full authority of the Papacy and not in a personal capacity. The last time this was used was actually in 1950 by Pope Pius XII.....so despite popular opinion, the Pope in modern times (after 1950) only speaks from personal capacity and I don't have to blindly follow whatever he says or does to remain in communion in the church.

The Catholic faith will survive this evil and be stronger.



Ags4DaWin
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So your loophole is that unless the Pope prefaces a statement or action with "What I am saying comes directly from God" it doesn't count and shouldn't be taken as direction from God. And that the last time this happened was in 1950.....which means all the Popes since then have been pretty much useless insofar as guiding the Catholic Church via revelation from God.

Oookaaayyy...
SoulSlaveAG2005
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Ags4DaWin said:

So your loophole is that unless the Pope prefaces a statement or action with "What I am saying comes directly from God" it doesn't count and shouldn't be taken as direction from God. And that the last time this happened was in 1950.....which means all the Popes since then have been pretty much useless insofar as guiding the Catholic Church via revelation from God.

Oookaaayyy...


No. That's not even close to what he said...

There are only 2 teachings in 2000 years that have been taught to be infallible. The assumption of the Blessed Mother (1854) , and her perpetual virginity(1950). Even these weren't earth shattering teachings as they had been taught and considered part of divine revelation since the beginning of the faith.

Links to help you understand the concept. Read if you wish.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-does-the-term-ex-cathedra-mean-and-where-did-the-catholic-church-come-up-with-it

http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2011/02/17/when-does-the-pope-speak-infallibly/


Zobel
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If this was always a thing how come we ever used the conciliar approach? Why not issue statements ex cathedra for all of the great heresies / controversies in history?
AG Custom
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AG
Ags4DaWin said:

So your loophole is that unless the Pope prefaces a statement or action with "What I am saying comes directly from God" it doesn't count and shouldn't be taken as direction from God. And that the last time this happened was in 1950.....which means all the Popes since then have been pretty much useless insofar as guiding the Catholic Church via revelation from God.

Oookaaayyy...
SoulSlaveAG2005 hit the mail on the head (and thank you for that). Expressing and giving reason and insight into the true meaning of papal infallibility is more to educate as a large percentage of population and sadly most Catholics as well do not understand (among lots of other church teachings) what the churches stance is on this subject. Many people falsely believe that Catholics must think everything the Pope says is church law and that anything he does we are to perceive those actions as pure and without sin. That just isn't even close to the case.

I don't think much of anything about this whole mess has been handled well and you can certainly look straight to the Pope whose silence and lack of addressing the issue for so long rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, including myself. Just because he is the Pope doesn't mean i have to like it, I don't have to respect the way he has gone about it, and i don't have to agree with it. Truth told i cry for and want more to be done, but NONE of that changes anything about the doctrines and teachings of the faith. None of this scandal changes anything about the church teachings.

It takes a lot more than fallen men doing acts that are pitiful and 100% against the faith to shake or loosen the grip i have on my faith.

Zobel
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AG
There is a bit of cognitive dissonance here. There is no magisterium without human beings. The teachings of the Church aren't enshrined in golden tablets, they're preserved through active, ongoing teaching and reaffirmation through living witnesses. They're lived out, by people, with continuity.

A person can't say, the whole of the hierarchy can be corrupted but the church (and the doctrine) remains. It's not possible. There is no church without the laity; there is no church without the clergy.

Further, the entirety of the Latin sense of universality is borne up or tied into the commonality or oneness with Rome. If Rome is corrupt, the idea of universality is at risk.

Of course, my opinion all of this is an error, and papal infallibility is a necessary and logical conclusion to the universality being embodied in or through a single titular office rather than an attribute of the church. But when you come up with this idea of unity through the hierarchy, your hierarchy can in no way become corrupt.
AG Custom
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Are you saying that although the Catholic church rejects all sin and also has written doctrines then because someone of the clergy is corrupt or failed as a human, then the church itself is failed? Are you saying that they have literally changed the Church's teachings and beliefs because of these actions? Are you saying that the whole hierarchy of the church is corrupt?

If so, your theory is incredibly flawed and we will agree to disagree, because the Catholic faith and church is much larger than any Pope, and the Catholic faith and church is much larger than any flawed clergy. Perfection in our love and actions is not possible though we are called to strive to achieve that. It is through God's grace and mercy that any of us have a chance to be saved. If you are saying that these actions (sins) now represent the Catholic church then i have to 100% disagree and so will millions of other members of the church as well as thousands and thousands of clergy members across the world.

Millions upon millions of Catholics around the world are hurt by all this and none more so than the faithful clergy who get much thrown on them from the actions of those who have fallen. None of that removes Christ from the center of the Catholic Faith, none of that tarnishes the grace and mercy received from the sacraments, and none of that changes the core beliefs and teachings of the church.

Zobel
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No, but you clobbered that straw man pretty good.

Let's come at it from a different angle. You believe there is one Church, and that Church is infallible, and has the fullness of truth, right? Let's say that Church has right doctrines and right practices as an expression of or because of holding the right faith.

And you believe that Church is that of Rome - yes?

How do you know? What property of an individual church assures it that it is, in fact, the universal church?

Doesn't your ecclesiology necessitate that for any church to be the One Church, it must be in communion with Rome? It's not the creed. Or baptism. Right?

An ex cathedral statement from a single person can change that criterion. Actually, it doesn't even need to come to that. The pope could excommunicate someone unilaterally without even using his seat of infallibility (like Pope Victor tried way back when). Or, a council of Rome could declare that if you don't think the pope is invested with infallibility (whatever the circumstancial requirements or limits) you're anathema.

Rome's ecclesiology is tied up in Rome - and specifically, the papacy. This means that the whole structure - including the definition of right doctrine and right practice - is completely identified with the hierarchy of the Roman Church. You can't say, man, the pope is the worst. It can't work like that, because he is literally the arbiter of what the doctrines are. He Roman doctrine at this time even puts him above the conciliar process, it requires him to ratify a council does it not? He can change it all at any time he chooses.

You're either with the hierarchy or you're not. If you're Roman, you can't pick and choose. Apart from the magisterium (and those who control it) there is no criterion of the faith.
chimpanzee
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k2aggie07 said:

No, but you clobbered that straw man pretty good.

Let's come at it from a different angle. You believe there is one Church, and that Church is infallible, and has the fullness of truth, right? Let's say that Church has right doctrines and right practices as an expression of or because of holding the right faith.

And you believe that Church is that of Rome - yes?

How do you know? What property of an individual church assures it that it is, in fact, the universal church?

Doesn't your ecclesiology necessitate that for any church to be the One Church, it must be in communion with Rome? It's not the creed. Or baptism. Right?

An ex cathedral statement from a single person can change that criterion. Actually, it doesn't even need to come to that. The pope could excommunicate someone unilaterally without even using his seat of infallibility (like Pope Victor tried way back when). Or, a council of Rome could declare that if you don't think the pope is invested with infallibility (whatever the circumstancial requirements or limits) you're anathema.

Rome's ecclesiology is tied up in Rome - and specifically, the papacy. This means that the whole structure - including the definition of right doctrine and right practice - is completely identified with the hierarchy of the Roman Church. You can't say, man, the pope is the worst. It can't work like that, because he is literally the arbiter of what the doctrines are. He Roman doctrine at this time even puts him above the conciliar process, it requires him to ratify a council does it not? He can change it all at any time he chooses.

You're either with the hierarchy or you're not. If you're Roman, you can't pick and choose. Apart from the magisterium (and those who control it) there is no criterion of the faith.

The whole infallibility thing is misunderstood by nearly everyone, and you hit on the less frequently discussed issue I have with it. The whole idea that the Pope could, if he so chooses, define any manner of official doctrine of the faith is really odd. What could possibly have been missed in scripture and practice over the intervening centuries that they just figured out and need to start teaching with equal authority to everything else?

The two times it has been used seem to underscore that it is understood by Rome to be problematic. Neither instance has much of any bearing on how the faithful should live their lives, only something (arguably trivial) that we are required to believe (an odd concept).

As mentioned above, I'm no cultural Catholic, so while the RCC's Mariology seems worthy of a venerable sidebar to the story of salvation, whatever God's specific plan/actions were with Mary, the impact to the church's mission beyond her role as described in the Gospel seems fairly limited in day-to-day practice of the faith. Scripture is silent to the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary, and God being who we believe He is, would be capable of managing these however He wished, but He only chose to reveal these specifics via a Papal proclamation ex cathedra?

Zobel
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AG

Quote:

The whole infallibility thing is misunderstood by nearly everyone, and you hit on the less frequently discussed issue I have with it. The whole idea that the Pope could, if he so chooses, define any manner of official doctrine of the faith is really odd. What could possibly have been missed in scripture and practice over the intervening centuries that they just figured out and need to start teaching with equal authority to everything else?

The two times it has been used seem to underscore that it is understood by Rome to be problematic. Neither instance has much of any bearing on how the faithful should live their lives, only something (arguably trivial) that we are required to believe (an odd concept).

As mentioned above, I'm no cultural Catholic, so while the RCC's Mariology seems worthy of a venerable sidebar to the story of salvation, whatever God's specific plan/actions were with Mary, the impact to the church's mission beyond her role as described in the Gospel seems fairly limited in day-to-day practice of the faith. Scripture is silent to the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary, and God being who we believe He is, would be capable of managing these however He wished, but He only chose to reveal these specifics via a Papal proclamation ex cathedra?
So, not so as to talk out of both sides of my mouth here, but I think you're not necessarily grasping the nature of an ex cathedra statement in RCC ecclesiology.

They aren't saying that he's promulgating a new teaching. There is an inherent guard against newness, anything new is by definition wrong and not apostolic. There is no new teaching, only "growth" of teaching or explanations and whatnot on the same, continuous faith.

The way to correctly state it, then, isn't that the pope is describing some new tradition, but simply clarifying or affirming something that has always been held as part of the faith.

I just think the whole structure becomes somewhat perilous as since Vatican I there's a required belief that the pope can speak infallibly ex cathedra, and if you don't believe that, you're anathema. But how do we know of that teaching? Well, because a council ratified by the pope said so. So it becomes almost kind of tautological. And since, like I said, clearly whatever the magisterium say goes, and the magisterium is defined exclusively by the hierarchy, and ultimately only what is ratified by the pope - with no appeal - then the pope is the basically the only vote that counts in the magisterium.

At the end of the day, under current Roman teaching, the pope - by virtue of his office (not his person, to be clear) - is vested with the ultimate teaching and pastoral authority of the church. Even to the point that no council can promulgate a binding teaching or doctrine or dogma without his ratification. Or that ultimately every bishop serves at his pleasure. Or that every would-be communicant is subject to his office. And that communion with his office is the only concrete arbiter of whether a church is or is not the Church. And all that is without even broaching the subject of the ex cathedra guaranty of infallibility.

Does that bother anyone? Does anyone believe that is right? I don't, clearly, so I'm out. But the Roman church says you have to believe that, on pain of anathema. If you don't believe it you're not a Roman Catholic in good standing.

So again, Roman Catholics can't say well I accept the magisterium but reject the (current) hiearchy. You can't. The ecclesiology requires you to take them together, because one has complete and utter authority over the other. You have no way to affirm or deny the teachings of the church without the hierarchy, it's all closed loop.
chimpanzee
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k2aggie07 said:



The way to correctly state it, then, isn't that the pope is describing some new tradition, but simply clarifying or affirming something that has always been held as part of the faith.



I don't think I disagree with your larger point. I guess my thought was, if something was sufficiently unclear or otherwise in need of affirmation and explicit inclusion in the magesterium, it's going to be on a spectrum between trivial matters or being off the rails in some serious doctrinal stuff. While there seems to be a range of disagreement with the ideas around the Assumption of Mary and her Immaculate Conception in the wider Christian world, if you were all-in to believe everything coming out of the Roman hierarchy, but missed that day of catechism, it seems entirely forgivable if you couldn't really express why it mattered in the first place. It really does read like a litmus test, profess these specifics as evidence of Roman authority, or you're out. .

Zobel
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AG
Yes, agreed.
wbt5845
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As an aside - sometimes, the satire websites hit so close to home it's hard to see they're satire.

http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/2019/02/22/francis-after-first-day-at-sex-abuse-summit-we-figured-it-all-out-thanks-for-your-concern-but-you-can-leave-us-alone-now/

Quote:

Hours after the first day of the Vatican Sex Abuse Summit concluded yesterday, Pope Francis stood before close to 200 participants and a small gathering of reporters and announced that "all went well," before going on to tell everyone that they were "welcome to now leave."

"Thank you so very much for your concern," Francis told reporters. "Honestly, it really means a lot that you're here and reporting on this very important matter that we're all taking super seriously as can be seen by this summit that we were not at all pressured to do, but did it because we care. But, after a full day of work on this mattermany hours, mind youwe've figured it all out. And it wasn't even that hard too, I gotta be honest."

The pope went on to exhort those in attendance to leave the Vatican and to please start focusing on other "crazy things going on in the world."

"So what's up with this whole Zion and his shoe blowing out thing? Crazy, right? You think he should stop playing until he gets into the NBA? You guys should totally focus on that and I'd totally be down to give you guys quotes and stuff if you guys wanted it."

After being asked what steps the Vatican planned on taking to address sex abuse in the future, Francis said that the details were "rock solid" and that "this kinda thing won't happen again."

"Trust me, it's super complicated and, to be honest, kinda tedious. I don't wanna bore you and waste your time with the details. Just leave here knowing that it's all figured out. Like, totally figured out."
ramblin_ag02
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https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/02/25/australia/cardinal-george-pell-vatican-conviction-intl/index.html

Highest ranking official convicted so far. Former head of Australian church and one of the 9 papal advisors until just a few months ago. Removed as an advisor in December "due to age", but apparently also convicted then.

Conspiracy theory here, but anyone else starting to think the sex criminals forced out Benedict and elevated Francis so they could keep the party going? And that the inmates are running the asylum?
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jkag89
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I guess the gag order finally has come off.
ramblin_ag02
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Yep. Apparently they decided not to press more charges. In Australia they gag verdicts if more charges are coming so as not to bias the next trial
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AgLiving06
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ramblin_ag02 said:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/02/25/australia/cardinal-george-pell-vatican-conviction-intl/index.html

Highest ranking official convicted so far. Former head of Australian church and one of the 9 papal advisors until just a few months ago. Removed as an advisor in December "due to age", but apparently also convicted then.

Conspiracy theory here, but anyone else starting to think the sex criminals forced out Benedict and elevated Francis so they could keep the party going? And that the inmates are running the asylum?

I'm not sure how much of a conspiracy theory that is, as opposed to the likely truth.

I think Matt Fradd (Pints with Aquinas) made it relatively clear it's presumed that's exactly what happened up to and including a group called the "lavender mafia" who were very clear with their intentions.
BringJackieBack89
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I don't know how I'd survive without the gift of my faith.
The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
jkag89
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Suppression Order Lifted on Cardinal Pell Trial
Edward Pentin - National Catholic Register

Quote:

Ed Condon of Catholic News Agency, which was able to circumvent the suppression order because its reports were not distributed within Australia, reported in December that Cardinal Pell was charged with five counts of sexual abuse against the two choristers immediately following a 10:30am Sunday Mass in Melbourne's St. Patrick's Cathedral.

The Melbourne trial began in June last year and first ended in a hung jury and a mistrial in September, with jurors reportedly siding 10-2 in favor of Cardinal Pell's innocence. A second hearing with a new jury began in November, delivering a unanimous conviction on Dec. 11.

"People in court saw how flimsy the evidence was," a source close to the cardinal told the Register after the verdict in December. "This is an act of outrageous malice by a prejudiced jury. The media convicted him long ago in the court of public opinion and he did not receive a fair trial." But although evidence appeared to lean heavily in Cardinal Pell's favor, his decision not to take the stand "made a negative impression" on the jury according to one source, while others defended his decision.

On Dec. 13, without directly referencing the suppressed outcome of Cardinal Pell's just-concluded trial, Victoria state Attorney General Jill Hennessy pointed to the danger of negative media coverage influencing a jury, and asked her department to examine the option of "judge-only" trials for high-profile cases, as happens in other Australian states.

This followed the exoneration of Archbishop Philip Wilson, archbishop emeritus of Adelaide, whose conviction for failing to report child sexual abuse was overturned in early December by a judge on appeal. An appellate judge, Roy Ellis, said media portrayals of the Church's sexual abuse crisis might have been a factor in the initial guilty verdict against Archbishop Wilson, according to CNA.

jkag89
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Is Cardinal Pell a perpetrator or victim? Aussie media keep wavering between the two
By Julia Duin - GetReligion
 
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