At what point do we just shut down the Catholic Church
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Last: 5 yr ago by jkag89
Who's we?
The easiest way to "shut down the Catholic Church" is to offer a "better option" for following what God and Jesus gave us.
And personally, I already see several better options today.
The easiest way to "shut down the Catholic Church" is to offer a "better option" for following what God and Jesus gave us.
And personally, I already see several better options today.
1054 AD?Quote:
At what point do we just shut down the Catholic Church
1517 AD?
Presuming to know more than God is dangerous.AgLiving06 said:
Who's we?
The easiest way to "shut down the Catholic Church" is to offer a "better option" for following what God and Jesus gave us.
And personally, I already see several better options today.
Completely aside from the religious implications, how do you treat this as a secular government. You have a worldwide institution whose members have committed appalling crimes all around the world. The organization has either covered up these crimes, silenced victims, or removed the members from the relevant jurisdiction all to keep their members from having to suffer penalty or judgment of the secular authorities.
IMHO, if this involved anything other than a religious organization we'd have worldwide raids by InterPol and the relevant national/local authorities to stamp out this worldwide sex criminal ring.
IMHO, if this involved anything other than a religious organization we'd have worldwide raids by InterPol and the relevant national/local authorities to stamp out this worldwide sex criminal ring.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Canchurian Manidate said:Presuming to know more than God is dangerous.AgLiving06 said:
Who's we?
The easiest way to "shut down the Catholic Church" is to offer a "better option" for following what God and Jesus gave us.
And personally, I already see several better options today.
Who claims that?
That is entirely up to Catholics. If they are comfortable with their present church leadership, there is not much you can do about it.
Quote:
That is entirely up to Catholics. If they are comfortable with their present church leadership, there is not much you can do about it.
Their beliefs don't allow them to do anything. One cannot make an argument on authority and then challenge that authority in the next breath.
Not exactly. If they are accused of actual crimes, we can utilize the secular/temporal authority (i.e. law enforcement) to arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate. And this needs to be done.diehard03 said:Their beliefs don't allow them to do anything. One cannot make an argument on authority and then challenge that authority in the next breath.Quote:
That is entirely up to Catholics. If they are comfortable with their present church leadership, there is not much you can do about it.
As to canonical crimes or vow breaking, the powers that be have it rigged... much like the lack of term limits our congress critters mostly don't want. Here, all we have left is financial support (I mean, lack thereof).
Quote:
Not exactly. If they are accused of actual crimes, we can utilize the secular/temporal authority (i.e. law enforcement) to arrest, prosecute, and incarcerate. And this needs to be done.
As to canonical crimes or vow breaking, the powers that be have it rigged... much like the lack of term limits our congress critters mostly don't want. Here, all we have left is financial support (I mean, lack thereof).
Hasn't the 2nd part basically occurred to shield them from the 1st part?
Don't agree.
Laity can depose bishops. The laity can reject clergy. Laity have a ton of power. They are not using it.
Laity can depose bishops. The laity can reject clergy. Laity have a ton of power. They are not using it.
Is the OP asking about the Catholic Church as an Organization or as a Christian denomination? Certainly some house cleaning needs to be done, but as a former Protestant, I can tell you ever domination has those who commit heinous acts, and even in the larger mega churches, there are those who have covered it up. IMO never a reason to give up your faith, but to lean into into it and help be part of fixing what is wrong.
It is the OP's shtick on this board every time such a headline arises.
Vatican clarifies pope's comments on sexual abuse of women religious
Vatican clarifies pope's comments on sexual abuse of women religious
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
That's laudable, but you do realize that the entrenched cabal of predators at the top of the RCC are basically counting on this? Why would they ever change or hold anyone accountable if the majority of Catholics are cradle to grave no matter what?Dad-O-Lot said:
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Frankly, they will die.ramblin_ag02 said:That's laudable, but you do realize that the entrenched cabal of predators at the top of the RCC are basically counting on this? Why would they ever change or hold anyone accountable if the majority of Catholics are cradle to grave no matter what?Dad-O-Lot said:
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
I can remain faithful to the Church without supporting the evil that exists within some of the hierarchy.
Many of the younger priests coming up are much more conservative.
Many of the Seminaries have made changes over the last decade which should improve the next generation of Priests.
To tell the truth, I am heartened by the fact that at least 2 Aggies have been raised to the level of Bishop in the last few years. There are good Bishops out there. They need the support of the laity, and those who are not so good, deserve to be called out.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
Bishop David Konderla is a true light of the church, wonderful facebook follow if you are so inclined.Dad-O-Lot said:Frankly, they will die.ramblin_ag02 said:That's laudable, but you do realize that the entrenched cabal of predators at the top of the RCC are basically counting on this? Why would they ever change or hold anyone accountable if the majority of Catholics are cradle to grave no matter what?Dad-O-Lot said:
The gates of hell will not prevail.
The Catholic Church has survived for almost 2000 years.
It will survive this too.
It may shrink for a little while, but it will survive.
I say this as a Catholic who tries to be devout and is livid at much of the Hierarchy and am getting more dismayed at our current Pope every day.
I can remain faithful to the Church without supporting the evil that exists within some of the hierarchy.
Many of the younger priests coming up are much more conservative.
Many of the Seminaries have made changes over the last decade which should improve the next generation of Priests.
To tell the truth, I am heartened by the fact that at least 2 Aggies have been raised to the level of Bishop in the last few years. There are good Bishops out there. They need the support of the laity, and those who are not so good, deserve to be called out.
I can't find the article, but someone else posted that sexual predation in the Catholic Church goes back at least to Martin Luther. The root problem is not the current leaders and predators, though they are a big problem. The root problem is the all-encompassing "Apostolic Authority" that is at the heart of the Catholic faith. As much as I hate that it's true, it appears that sexual predation, whether homosexual, heterosexual, or pedophilia happens any time individuals or groups get sufficient power. It could be economic, political, military, or religious power. It doesn't seem to matter. The Catholic Church is especially vulnerable due to large amounts of economic, religious, and political power concentrated in a small central group of people.
The solution, IMHO, is to decentralize the control and vastly reduce the economic and political power of the Catholic Church. This would both make it a less attractive place for predators and make it easier to punish predators when they are found. Unfortunately, terms like "humility", "less power", and "less influence" have been anathema to the Catholic Church for the last 1000 years at least
No trying to come across as hostile. I just can't wrap my head around the amount blind loyalty it takes to wholely support an organization after worldwide scandals, plus the list released about their clergy in our own back yard, plus the reports of sex slavery
The solution, IMHO, is to decentralize the control and vastly reduce the economic and political power of the Catholic Church. This would both make it a less attractive place for predators and make it easier to punish predators when they are found. Unfortunately, terms like "humility", "less power", and "less influence" have been anathema to the Catholic Church for the last 1000 years at least
No trying to come across as hostile. I just can't wrap my head around the amount blind loyalty it takes to wholely support an organization after worldwide scandals, plus the list released about their clergy in our own back yard, plus the reports of sex slavery
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
It's authority without accountability that is the problem. There is no problem with authority by itself. In my opinion, authority is less effective the more diffuse it is. Accountability works the opposite way. The hypothetical optimum is absolute concentrated authority with total universal accountability. The problem is that the authority then resists accountability. 
You don't see this same phenomenon in the Orthodox church however, whose bishops are at least as powerful (I would argue more powerful) than their Catholic counterparts.ramblin_ag02 said:
I can't find the article, but someone else posted that sexual predation in the Catholic Church goes back at least to Martin Luther. The root problem is not the current leaders and predators, though they are a big problem. The root problem is the all-encompassing "Apostolic Authority" that is at the heart of the Catholic faith. As much as I hate that it's true, it appears that sexual predation, whether homosexual, heterosexual, or pedophilia happens any time individuals or groups get sufficient power. It could be economic, political, military, or religious power. It doesn't seem to matter. The Catholic Church is especially vulnerable due to large amounts of economic, religious, and political power concentrated in a small central group of people.
The solution, IMHO, is to decentralize the control and vastly reduce the economic and political power of the Catholic Church. This would both make it a less attractive place for predators and make it easier to punish predators when they are found. Unfortunately, terms like "humility", "less power", and "less influence" have been anathema to the Catholic Church for the last 1000 years at least
No trying to come across as hostile. I just can't wrap my head around the amount blind loyalty it takes to wholely support an organization after worldwide scandals, plus the list released about their clergy in our own back yard, plus the reports of sex slavery
The Catholic Church has a major homosexual clergy issue fomented by the Jesuits, it has also had a "good ole boy" network where problems were "swept under the rug" so as not to tarnish the public image of the church and were then never actually addressed.
It's a very tough time to be a Catholic, our entire pitch is "Yes we're full of homosexual philanderers, embezzlers and abuse abettors, but we've got 2,000 years of tradition and our theology is solid". It's not the best sales pitch I've heard.
I trust Christ and His promise; I have nowhere else to go. That doesn't mean I'll tolerate this type of behavior, however.
That's the rub, right? It takes authority to hold authority accountable. So the stronger and more central the authority, the less accountability it has. And I fundamentally disagree anyway. Authority (or power) is the problem. Abuse of power occurs at every level with every conceivable type of power. It's human nature. Magnitudes more power just means magnitudes greater abuse of power.Quote:
It's authority without accountability that is the problem. There is no problem with authority by itself. In my opinion, authority is less effective the more diffuse it is. Accountability works the opposite way. The hypothetical optimum is absolute concentrated authority with total universal accountability. The problem is that the authority then resists accountability.
And I disagree that Orthodox bishops are that powerful. For many centuries the Pope was either the most powerful person in Europe or a close second. Once the Eastern Roman Empire fell to the Muslims the Orthodox bishops never came close to that kind of political and military power ever again.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
At a certain point it's just organized crime.
Regarding "Shutting down the Catholic Church". It has been tried by many countries throughout history.
Won't happen.
Won't happen.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
As a Christian I cannot look at the actions of the Catholic Church over its history, especially the acts of the Popes and how the Church was used to create dominion over people and countries and say that it serves the kingdom of God.
Once The church leadership became a political institution with Cardinals place as political favors, popes elected to shore up treaties and power, the Church stopped being about following the will of God and about following the will of men....if it was indeed about the will of a god before that.
If the head of the body is gangrenous the rest of the body follows suit in short order.
This is not to say there aren't spiritual priests and devout members. There are. But the Pope is the head of the Church and supposedly where the authority of the Church to act in God's name comes from. Without him being truly a man of God the rest just collapses in on itself.
Once The church leadership became a political institution with Cardinals place as political favors, popes elected to shore up treaties and power, the Church stopped being about following the will of God and about following the will of men....if it was indeed about the will of a god before that.
If the head of the body is gangrenous the rest of the body follows suit in short order.
This is not to say there aren't spiritual priests and devout members. There are. But the Pope is the head of the Church and supposedly where the authority of the Church to act in God's name comes from. Without him being truly a man of God the rest just collapses in on itself.
Christ is the Head of His church...and God's inspired Word the only Authority. Period.
The pope is head of the first apostate Church. Period.
The pope is head of the first apostate Church. Period.
The real trick is never forgetting that the people are the priests and the priests are part of the people. This is what Rome has forgotten, I think.
A big step in the right direction would be to rescind it's abominable celibacy requirement. It's a recipe for disaster, and has been for centuries.
I was raised Catholic and did everything up to confirmation which I never completed. Been pretty agnostic since college but have decided that if I seek out a future church again it will not be with the Catholic faith.
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I trust Christ and His promise; I have nowhere else to go. That doesn't mean I'll tolerate this type of behavior, however.
From the outside looking in, this statement doesn't make any sense to me. What are you doing different today versus 20 years ago versus 20 years from now? You've basically already said that the presence of an internation sex crime/human trafficking ring run by leaders of your Church is not enough to make you leave. That sounds exactly like tolerance. Not approval by any means, but tolerance for sure.
What would it take to make you leave? As far as I can tell, you can't really get any worse aside from mass murder. Are there Catholics that would stay Catholic in the face of mass murder? Does apostolic succession and "the gates of hell will not prevail" really give that kind of carte blanche to anything that happens no matter what?
If leadership is the Church and the leadership is rotten, then doesn't that make the Church rotten? How can you say Apostolic Authority is the most important thing in one breath, and then say the leadership doesn't represent the Church in the next? I just can't follow.
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Put another way. If the church can't fail at what point do you say that ain't the church? Especially if you turn around and chastise Protestants for their invisible church theology. What's the definition of failure? Double especially if you agree with papal infallibility, the vicar of Christ, etc etc. bleh.
I feel quite confident that I did my part.
Sure it can. But a country can't do it. If the normal Catholic members want it to be shut down, then it can be done. The question really is for normal Catholic members is have you reached the point where the Catholic Church in it's current form should be shut down? At what point does your money and time spent for a Catholic Church turn into aiding and abetting the world's oldest and largest sex abuse organization?Dad-O-Lot said:
Regarding "Shutting down the Catholic Church". It has been tried by many countries throughout history.
Won't happen.
A friend of mine's wife spent time in discernment over whether she would become a nun. Most devout Catholics I know. Both of them have shrugged and accepted that at some point the papacy became corrupted. He said - why the heck did we think leaving this up to the Italians was a good idea? They have said things like I'm faithful to Christ, not the pontiff. It was shocking for me, truly. If this continues maybe something will actually change.
Why would we shut it down? I'm as frustrated by the current bishops and pope as anyone, but this is honestly one of the silliest questions ever on this board. The Church is made up of sinners and always will be. We can choose how to donate our money...we can demand better by our clergy...we can find better ways to make them more accountable...we can pray for the clergy & leadership..... but if you believe the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the truth in it's beliefs and the 'gates of hell' will not prevail against it, why would I advocate shutting it down? It brings to mind the phrase...cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Sorry if someone already said this, I just skimmed through, but the root of the issue is authority, rarely do we question our own bosses, and in the church's case it's no different. Some orders even take a vow or at one time had a vow to not question authority (it's not worded exactly that way, but similar language). I am not well versed in what the church has done to audit/investigate themselves, for all I know there's a Robert Mueller investigating the church.
I thought when the early 00s scandal happened, that would purge the church and clean house. Clearly that didn't happen, and I'm not sure I have the faith in the church leadership that it will improve since it looks like we're going through it all again. I think Cardinal Dinardo is a really nice person, I've spoken with him a couple of times, but I do question how things like this continue to happen and it appears the church knew about it the whole time, but is being forced to disclose. Is he totally naive, or is he hiding/lying.
Based on my personal experience, I vowed to never let my faith be determined by a person or person(s) actions. That could be from a priest or person at church being mean to me, or even what's going on right now with the scandals. However, I know a lot of people do. There will be people that leave the church over this, most won't be active or contribute financially so not sure what change will be seen until the church opens themselves up to an outside investigation.
I thought when the early 00s scandal happened, that would purge the church and clean house. Clearly that didn't happen, and I'm not sure I have the faith in the church leadership that it will improve since it looks like we're going through it all again. I think Cardinal Dinardo is a really nice person, I've spoken with him a couple of times, but I do question how things like this continue to happen and it appears the church knew about it the whole time, but is being forced to disclose. Is he totally naive, or is he hiding/lying.
Based on my personal experience, I vowed to never let my faith be determined by a person or person(s) actions. That could be from a priest or person at church being mean to me, or even what's going on right now with the scandals. However, I know a lot of people do. There will be people that leave the church over this, most won't be active or contribute financially so not sure what change will be seen until the church opens themselves up to an outside investigation.
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