AGC said:

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RetiredAg said:

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AGC said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Quote:

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for he is the minister of God to thee for good

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So was Hitler a minister of God to "thee for good"?

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Given that you can quote church fathers you undoubtedly realize they lived under Roman rule and that the Romans weren't nice people either. I don't know that I'd say Hitler is an objectively worse person than they were, so perhaps your criticism is not only shortsighted but misguided. What was Paul saying when he wrote it, and would inserting Hitler make it different?

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Sorry if criticizing Hitler offended you. I did reference Caesar earlier if you prefer. Yes, they lived under an evil state when Paul wrote those words, so perhaps Paul meant something other than to endorse the actions of the state. As we see with the quotes referenced above, the early church views of capital punishment didn't include some asterisk to differentiate between "good state" and "evil state".

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Offended by you criticizing Hitler? What the hell is wrong with you? For all the crap you give MQB you're not exactly out of line with his posts right now.

The point is that Romans were brutal and Paul was well aware of the government's power over human life when he wrote that.

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My apologies if I misunderstood your comment. It sounded like you said my criticism of Hitler was "shortsighted but misguided". Again, my apologies.

And yes, Paul was well aware of the government's power over human life when he wrote that. I think it's foolish to say that Paul endorsed or supported Caesar's actions, which leads me to believe that that section of misunderstood by those who use it as a reason for Christians to support the state's anti-life policies.

I really just wanted to respond w/ my apology though, as I clearly must have misunderstood you. On that note, I think this is the right time to bow out for good.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

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I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

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I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

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Yep it's pretty funny huh dude!

So what exactly did the Pope change? I thought official church teachings required a counsel. Is this like a popal executive order?

Not trolling, truly curious. I don't understand what he has the ability to change on his own versus what takes a counsel.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

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I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

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We'll just say oh well tough sh*t for all the innocent people the state has executed. Just like Jesus taught.

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He did. At his own trial!

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

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I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

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It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

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I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

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We'll just say oh well tough sh*t for all the innocent people the state has executed. Just like Jesus taught.

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He did. At his own trial!

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Great point dude you are so fcking smart no one can comprehend your skills of argument and logic.


JFC as much as I hate the Catholic Church there is absolutely nothing more reprehensible than moronic Protestantism.

Frok said:

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So what exactly did the Pope change? I thought official church teachings required a counsel. Is this like a popal executive order?

Not trolling, truly curious. I don't understand what he has the ability to change on his own versus what takes a counsel.

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Until today's announcement, n. 2267 of the Catechism, promulgated by Pope St. John Paul II, read:

Quote:

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"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

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Now it reads:

Quote:

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Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state.

Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that "the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person",[1] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

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Source

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

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We'll just say oh well tough sh*t for all the innocent people the state has executed. Just like Jesus taught.

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He did. At his own trial!

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Great point dude you are so fcking smart no one can comprehend your skills of argument and logic.

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I'm skilled at logic and rhetoric. I'm one of those protestants who love philosophy. Unlike those der der der protestants who totally doesn't read Spinoza, Hume, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, and so forth while sipping the finest Sauvignon blanc napa valley has to offer.

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No you're just a troll with satanic ethics and Jesus hates you.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

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I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

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It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

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"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

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It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it. The Catholic Church is not an American institution that must follow US political definitions, .

jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

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It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

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Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

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It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

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Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

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No, actually it's impossible.

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I do not support putting to death the innocent. Fully consistent with my view about putting to death the innocent.

jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

---

It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

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Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

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No, actually it's impossible.

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I do not support putting to death the innocent. Fully consistent with my view about putting to death the innocent.

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You trust the State to only execute the guilty?

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No, they executed Jesus.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

---

It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

---

Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

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No, actually it's impossible.

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I do not support putting to death the innocent. Fully consistent with my view about putting to death the innocent.

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Nope your sick revenge fantasies are completely inconsistent with Christ's teachings. It's not even complicated.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

---

It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

---

Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

---

No, actually it's impossible.

---

I do not support putting to death the innocent. Fully consistent with my view about putting to death the innocent.

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You trust the State to only execute the guilty?

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No, they executed Jesus.

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So you are willing to sacrifice the innocent for your vengeance of the guilty?

jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

---

It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

---

Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

---

No, actually it's impossible.

---

I do not support putting to death the innocent. Fully consistent with my view about putting to death the innocent.

---

You trust the State to only execute the guilty?

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No, they executed Jesus.

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So you are willing to sacrifice the innocent for your vengeance of the guilty?

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What?

jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Marco Esquandolas said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

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jkag89 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

jkag89 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Marco Esquandolas said:

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I mean you sort of have to give the RCC props for trying to be consistent about being "pro-life" in a way that many Protestants just aren't interested in being.

---

I know. All of those unborn babies murdering and raping inside the womb.

---

It is not as if the Catholic Church is pro abortion. As stated a number of times on this and the Politic Board, the term pro-life goes beyond protection of like in the womb.

---

"Pro-life" is a specific movement in the United States that seeks to restrict or outlaw abortion. One can be pro-life and support the death penalty for murderers.

---

It is not how the Catholic Church has defined it.

---

Great for the Catholic Church. Other people can be consistent about being "pro-life" and support the death penalty.

---

No, actually it's impossible.

---

I do not support putting to death the innocent. Fully consistent with my view about putting to death the innocent.

---

You trust the State to only execute the guilty?

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No, they executed Jesus.

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So you are willing to sacrifice the innocent for your vengeance of the guilty?

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What?

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You concede the fact that the State whether through incompetence or misuse of power will at times execute the innocent yet you are still in favor of capital punishment. Is this your position? If so, you seem to be willing to sacrifice a few of the innocent so you can have vengeance upon those guilty of crimes you deem deserving of death. Is this a fair assessment of your view?

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Ok, I thought you were saying somehow any innocent's death is somehow a sacrifice for the guilty similar to Jesus' sacrifice. And no, that is not a fair assessment. Unless you think the entire justice system should be thrown out since an innocent man may be punished of a crime he did not commit?

nm

jkag89 said:

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Capital punishment is pretty final, other forms of punishment the state can still make amends for wrongful convictions.

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He is equivocating because he is absolutely willing to sacrifice innocent people to exact revenge through executing the guilty, he is just too chicken to admit it. Why? The only way his position can be consistent is in some hypothetical magic fantasy world where no one is ever wrongfully executed.

On Earth it is impossible to support the death penalty without implicitly approving of murdering the innocent because it is literally impossible to enforce it "perfectly."
Supporting the law even though you know it cannot be applied without mortal error makes you a moral ghoul.

AstroAg17 said:

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Approval? Hardly. Being willing to accept the cost of an action doesn't mean you approve of the price.

Do you approve of keeping innocent people in jail until they die? Of course you don't. Nobody does. But we accept that it might happen because we aren't willing to let the more heinous criminals leave prison.

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Ending someone's life is hugely qualitatively different from that. It precludes even the possibility of the error being corrected, which life in prison at least allows.

Some nice company we have here. But I'm sure our white American protestants know better than the rest of the free world.