Well you can ask people like K2 who will tell you that God is the Word and the bible is not. Though he will also tell you that the Bible contains the truth about the Word.

What I am trying to get at is, do you, like I used to as a believer, change how you think a scripture should be interpreted based on what you think sounds the best?

For instance. Pretty much, the vast majority of Bible believing christians believe that scriptures such as John 14:6 makes it absolutely clear that people who believe in other religions, even though they are good people and love and choose to turn away from evil and towards good, are destined for hell.

So what is your take and why?

AstroAg17 said:

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No, not enough said.

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I'm interpreting too much for yall.

Yall need to read the scripture for yourselves.

AstroAg17 said:

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No, not enough said.

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That has to be one of the most impossibly vague, metaphysical statements in the entire Bible with probably 1000 valid interpretations.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Well you can ask people like K2 who will tell you that God is the Word and the bible is not. Though he will also tell you that the Bible contains the truth about the Word.

What I am trying to get at is, do you, like I used to as a believer, change how you think a scripture should be interpreted based on what you think sounds the best?

For instance. Pretty much, the vast majority of Bible believing christians believe that scriptures such as John 14:6 makes it absolutely clear that people who believe in other religions, even though they are good people and love and choose to turn away from evil and towards good, are destined for hell.

So what is your take and why?

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Nobody knows exactly what that means. Is Jesus saying that as an exclusionary thing or is he saying it as an inclusionary thing like He can save everybody. Even from the birth of Christ the angels said Good tidings for ALL men and there are numerous other Biblical quotes which also emphasize ALL men will be drawn to him. And at least to me there are a lot more verses that have ALL men in them than Gehenna. Hell has been used(and is still being used) as a huge controlling scare device by the church. Which has led to people becoming "Christians" just to get a get off of Hell free card rather than actually following Christ.

I have a feeling some of those preachers may be the ones that Christ did not know.

And how do you think a modern day hellfire fundy preacher would respond to the adulteress? Or the prostitute that washed Christ's feet at the Pharisee's house. Like Christ? Or like the Pharisees?

dermdoc said:

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And how do you think a modern day hellfire fundy preacher would respond to the adulteress? Or the prostitute that washed Christ's feet at the Pharisee's house. Like Christ? Or like the Pharisees?

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Whichever way gives himself the best chance at getting money from her?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Well you can ask people like K2 who will tell you that God is the Word and the bible is not. Though he will also tell you that the Bible contains the truth about the Word.

What I am trying to get at is, do you, like I used to as a believer, change how you think a scripture should be interpreted based on what you think sounds the best?

For instance. Pretty much, the vast majority of Bible believing christians believe that scriptures such as John 14:6 makes it absolutely clear that people who believe in other religions, even though they are good people and love and choose to turn away from evil and towards good, are destined for hell.

So what is your take and why?

---

Quote:

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What I am trying to get at is, do you, like I used to as a believer, change how you think a scripture should be interpreted based on what you think sounds the best?

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Quote:

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James 1:2-5 New International Version (NIV)
Trials and Temptations
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

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Yes, it changes. It's not about what I think sounds best. It depends on my level of maturity at a given point in time; how many tests and challenge I've incurred and how I responded to said tests/challenges.

Quote:

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For instance. Pretty much, the vast majority of Bible believing christians believe that scriptures such as John 14:6 makes it absolutely clear that people who believe in other religions, even though they are good people and love and choose to turn away from evil and towards good, are destined for hell.

So what is your take and why?

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Let's take a look at that verse and see.

Quote:

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6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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Looking at John 10:

Quote:

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John 10:27-30 New International Version (NIV)

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

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This one verse indicates to me that there is an incredible amount of unity there.

Can one pray to the Father and exclude the Son or Holy Spirit? Is that even possible if they are truly one?

Consider this:

Quote:

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Isaiah 9:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

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I believe this is why the Lord has so many names in the bible. He didn't want anyone to be excluded just because they got his name wrong. How shallow would that be to turn some poor soul away from heaven all because they got the name wrong but truly, truly knew Him (accepted him as their Lord/savior), followed Him the best they could(repented), and admitted their sin (realized their need for a savior)?

I smell an awful lot of aristocratism here if folks want to exclude the Lord from everyone else. That's worse than when it was Jew/Gentile times.

Quote:

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For instance. Pretty much, the vast majority of Bible believing christians believe that scriptures such as John 14:6 makes it absolutely clear that people who believe in other religions, even though they are good people and love and choose to turn away from evil and towards good, are destined for hell.

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Well, first of all, God will be the one doing the judging, not those "bible believing Christians."

Secondly, it takes both faith in God and works to be accepted. Just one of them will not be good enough.

Think about it. If one does good, then the question of "why" comes up. Why do good at all? There are only 3 answers and only one is right.

If one has the faith part down, but no works, then the faith was not honest. It was dead, to begin with. (James 2:14-26)

It takes faith in the higher power too (Accepting the Lord as your Savior). It's not that hard to do. Even animals instinctively respect things bigger than them or get eaten. A pack of wolves will not tangle with a bear, let alone one wolf. I have seen too many times where a pack of wolves had just made a kill, were eating, and a bear come right in and ate all the rest right in front of them, while they helplessly watched. Upon his arrival, they got out of the way too.

I digress.


Even Anonymous/rehab programs, as secular as they are, see a need to acknowledge a higher power of some kind/sort.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Some want to be in Hell

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So, this is obviously the Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis position that comes up often here. Now, do you believe, from what you read in the Bible, that the people that choose hell and "want" to be there will be happier than if they were in heaven?

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Quote:

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Matthew 4:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

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Some folks knees couldn't hit the ground fast enough!

AstroAg17 said:

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dermdoc said:

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And how do you think a modern day hellfire fundy preacher would respond to the adulteress? Or the prostitute that washed Christ's feet at the Pharisee's house. Like Christ? Or like the Pharisees?

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Like Christ probably. You disagree? I know several and they're incredibly welcoming. Having confrontational beliefs doesn't make one a confrontational person.

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You are right and I am probably projecting.

Marco Esquandolas said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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No, not enough said.

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That has to be one of the most impossibly vague, metaphysical statements in the entire Bible with probably 1000 valid interpretations.

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It' s not meant to be understood with our mere human intelligence. Don't even try.

Only with faith can this, John 1:1, even begin to make sense.

Besides, there is fun in mystery. What fun would it be to know everything?

Frok said:

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I wouldn't say "historically proven". That is simply not possible. What we would aim for is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

From what I've read the bible is generally regarded as a historically reliable document. If the locations, timelines, and eye-witness accounts are considered reliable then we can trust what those eye-witnesses said. In regards to miracles I think the best approach is to analyze the accounts of the resurrection since that is the key event in Christianity. If the resurrection can be reasonably plausible then the other miracles are plausible as well.

Obviously I'm glossing over ALL the details just to state my view here. Not trying to convince you of the historicity of the bible in one sentence. Just stating my general line of thinking.

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Do the other religions have a key figure that exemplified love by laying down his/her life for his/her followers?

Are key themes of their scriptures genuine/true love, honesty, or sacrifice for a greater cause?

Is good/evil presented in a way that allows them, the followers, to think for themselves as far as what to put faith in and what not to put faith in?

These are things I would be on the lookout for in other religions.

Amazing Moves said:

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dds08 said:

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Amazing Moves said:

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Why does an all powerful deity need lowly humans to believe in him?

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God doesn't need anyone or anything.

I'm sure you knew that already.

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No. Why is it prerequisite if God doesn't need it?

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It's for our benefit, not His.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Frok said:

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I wouldn't say "historically proven". That is simply not possible. What we would aim for is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

From what I've read the bible is generally regarded as a historically reliable document. If the locations, timelines, and eye-witness accounts are considered reliable then we can trust what those eye-witnesses said. In regards to miracles I think the best approach is to analyze the accounts of the resurrection since that is the key event in Christianity. If the resurrection can be reasonably plausible then the other miracles are plausible as well.

Obviously I'm glossing over ALL the details just to state my view here. Not trying to convince you of the historicity of the bible in one sentence. Just stating my general line of thinking.

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Sure, I get that this is an abridged version of the argument. I think that the biggest problem that with the history argument is the 'extraordinary claim / extraordinary evidence' issue. Its just too easy to question the reliability of any of those eye witness accounts. Just as you probably find it all too easy to dismiss claims of miracles performed by other gods and Gods. And of course, the historical accuracy of the Bible and the truthfulness of the supernatural claims that it makes are entirely different questions.

---------------------------

dds wanted to know what would win over a non-believer. To quote his original post:

Quote:

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He doesn't just come out and appear to them and say "I am God" (he leaves room for faith, excluding Christ's appearance) He leaves it entirely up to them to accept or reject Him.

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To answer dds' question - I think that this is what would have to change for me to change. I just do not think it is reasonable to ask people to accept something this enormously and crucially extraordinary on faith. Giving human beings absolute 'proof' (whatever that means) of His existence does not take away our free will. I fail to see how it would cheapen our relationship to God for Him to give proof rather than ask that we believe without evidence. I'd love for God to pop in and say hello as dds suggests. It would be new information and a new experience that would inform and change my outlook and my beliefs.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing?. . . . . sorry, I gotta see. Maybe that makes me weak or foolish in some way.

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:
He doesn't just come out and appear to them and say "I am God" (he leaves room for faith, excluding Christ's appearance) He leaves it entirely up to them to accept or reject Him.

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To answer dds' question - I think that this is what would have to change for me to change. I just do not think it is reasonable to ask people to accept something this enormously and crucially extraordinary on faith. Giving human beings absolute 'proof' (whatever that means) of His existence does not take away our free will. I fail to see how it would cheapen our relationship to God for Him to give proof rather than ask that we believe without evidence. I'd love for God to pop in and say hello as dds suggests. It would be new information and a new experience that would inform and change my outlook and my beliefs.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing?. . . . . sorry, I gotta see. Maybe that makes me weak or foolish in some way.

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In order to see God...

Many claim no one has seen God and lived to speak of it.

Secondly, to actually see HIm, you would have to first figure out the purity problem. Priests in the old testament couldn't just offer sacrifices out of the clear blue. They had to go through special "preparation" procedures or risk death; not to mention entering the Holiest of Holies where the covenant of the ark was.

When the Lord came to Mount Sinai, all the people had to "clean up" before the Lord appeared or risk death.

The Lord will not appear to you because he wants you to continue on living.

His Son will have to do.

I'm sorry, I know this is not what you want to hear.

I doubt anyone could be as doubtful as Gideon.

BusterAg said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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If I were to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't believe in Christ, or the Lord at all, how could one, someone who doesn't believe, expect the Lord to win them over?

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In addition to putting yourself in someone else's shoes, consider the possibility that you are worshipping the wrong God. What would it take for you to be won over by another faith?

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After careful consideration, this is not a zero set for me. P value is very, very low, however.

It would take an unsurmountable logical argument, I think, which seems impossible for religion, or some direct miraculous revelation.

I looked into most of them. Not impressed. Love still wins.

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I'm curious. Which ones did you look into and what did you find out? What are they about?

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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What about the person who contracts AIDS from raping someone? I'm sure by now it's happened at least once.

How about all those people who contracted "gold fever", during the gold rush, went up the mountains and resorted to cannibalism all because they were too impatient to hang out in Southern California 3-4 months so the winter could pass?

Germany was so set on conquering Russia, they let the cold get them too. Power hungry leaders.

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What about those people. Maybe my brain is fried - but I don't see your point.

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Are you purposely closing your eyes to the obvious greed, lust, and coveting going on? This is work of the flesh.

We can mention how evolved we are, but we are still susceptible to sin. We get so bogged down by the problems we make for ourselves (due to sin), that we lose sight of the course of action that helps us all reach our potential.

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Huh? No, I recognize there is lots of bad stuff in the world - I don't see how its relevant to this thread.

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What the flesh wants is contrary to love. The flesh can be swayed to do things that are not in our best interest and even lead to our own self-destruction.

Wouldn't paths that lead to self-destruction be contrary to the idea of "evolution?"

How could all this not convince someone that evil and good exists, or that there is a source of good/evil?

Well to me, after looking more into human psychology and evolution, it makes much more sense that many people function better with those beliefs, regardless if a god exists or not.

And it's good that you have allowed your own compassion to reason yourself out of what most gather from the scriptures. That's what I did.

But it's really tricky to get around the notion of hell. If it exists at all, then you must believe many humans will go there. You stated before that those people WANT to be away from God. So I ask you again. Will those people be happier spending eternity in hell than being with God?

dds08 said:

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What the flesh wants is contrary to love. The flesh can be swayed to do things that are not in our best interest and even lead to our own self-destruction.

Wouldn't paths that lead to self-destruction be contrary to the idea of "evolution?"

How could all this not convince someone that evil and good exists, or that there is a source of good/evil?

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I don't think its correct to say that evolution has our 'best interest' in mind. Or even to say that it couldn't lead to the self destruction of a species.

The genes that get passed on are the genes from the individuals that breed. Surely you can think of some behavior that is contrary to love and is not constructive for our species by our current day moral standards that have helped members of our species breed and pass along the genes that made them successful in breeding.

Religion is the only facet of life in which we value faith without evidence as being virtuous. If I go to a broker with my life savings and ask him why I should put my savings there and his response is that I should simply have faith in him without any proof whatsoever and I do so, I'm not virtuous, I'm a fool.

Faith without evidence isn't a virtue, it is a convenient crutch to overcome the hurdle of there either being no proof of something or conflicting evidence. You're miraculously cured of cancer at age 27 and get to live a full, long length -- God is great! Praise be him! You're killed in a car wreck at age 21 because someone isn't paying attention and runs a red light -- I know this looks bad, but its okay because even though you can't understand it, God has a plan.

Ultimately, faith is what you hide behind when you realize there is no congruent rectification of the problem of evil with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

And hey, the perks of accepting the above is you no longer need to think of yourself as this wretched creature that deserves to be burning in a pit of fire for eternity absent some dude getting nailed to a cross 2000 years ago. Cheers!

Disagree. We do not live for this life alone.you would be right if there is nothing but this life.

Quote:

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Ultimately, faith is what you hide behind when you realize there is no congruent rectification of the problem of evil with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

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While I mostly agree with the rest of your post. This I don't see applicable at all.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Ultimately, faith is what you hide behind when you realize there is no congruent rectification of the problem of evil with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

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While I mostly agree with the rest of your post. This I don't see applicable at all.

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I don't think there is a non-faith based answer to this question. Christianity as a whole requires a suitable answer to the problem of evil which absent faith without evidence doesn't exist. It seems awfully convenient than that faith without evidence is treated as a virtue when it isn't in any other instance.

dermdoc said:

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Disagree. We do not live for this life alone.you would be right if there is nothing but this life.

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that thing you are referencing, whatever it is that's beyond this life, that is the return the investor is promising on your life savings. Only because it is religion are we okay with entrusting everything to the stockbroker without some kind of proof. I can't think of another example in which blind faith would be treated as virtuous rather than foolish.

Evidence is a loaded word.

john32f said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Quote:

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Ultimately, faith is what you hide behind when you realize there is no congruent rectification of the problem of evil with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

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While I mostly agree with the rest of your post. This I don't see applicable at all.

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I don't think there is a non-faith based answer to this question. Christianity as a whole requires a suitable answer to the problem of evil which absent faith without evidence doesn't exist. It seems awfully convenient than that faith without evidence is treated as a virtue when it isn't in any other instance.

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This is a very nuanced subject that you cannot really make blanket claims about though. Yes blind faith is not a virtue. But to say that there is no way to answer the evil problem is wrong. Even inside christianity there is. Once you introduce an unprovable variable like "there is a god" into a question then you cannot criticize someone who accepts that unprovable variable as truth, for not having proof for the problem you are trying to solve.

If the question is, can evil in this world exist with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god? The answer is 100% yes. That doesn't mean christianity is right. Or any other religion for that matter. There is no "evil problem" if approached logically and not emotionally.

It is a nuanced subject and I am certainly presenting a subjective comment as a blanket statement. Fair enough.

That said, the most common answers that attempt to resolve the problem of evil rely heavily on blind faith, which I would define as being neither self-evident (i.e., 2+2=4) nor capable of being established by evidence in the natural world (i.e., being physically observable). Regardless of whether you want to solve the problem of evil by using Hick's and Platinga's soul-building argument, or approach the answer from the perspective of free will necessitating evil, there's still an element of blind faith that inherent in the solution.

That's one significant problem regarding religion for me. We have to go against our nature, so to speak, in this one facet of our life whereas in any other aspect of our life, we'd be foolish to do so. But for this adherence to the virtue of blind faith, we'd expect god to present itself in its full glory to every person and truly let them decide for themselves whether this creator of all things is worth worshiping. Obviously that doesn't happen and so we look for a justification.

Here's a question for the religious. Would your free will be diminished in any way if god physically appeared in front of you, showed you the glory of heaven and the misery of hell, and said to you, "here is the list of rules you must adhere to in order to go to heaven. Failure to do so will result in you going to hell."?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Well you can ask people like K2 who will tell you that God is the Word and the bible is not. Though he will also tell you that the Bible contains the truth about the Word.

What I am trying to get at is, do you, like I used to as a believer, change how you think a scripture should be interpreted based on what you think sounds the best?

For instance. Pretty much, the vast majority of Bible believing christians believe that scriptures such as John 14:6 makes it absolutely clear that people who believe in other religions, even though they are good people and love and choose to turn away from evil and towards good, are destined for hell.

So what is your take and why?

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I'm reminded of a past Sunday School lesson that helps put the Bible into perspective.

The Bible is literature. The Word is what it is, The Word (John 1:1).

The Word existed way before mankind came up with literature. The Word cannot be confined to literature.

Are you a fan of Martin Short's character Jiminy Glick?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Well to me, after looking more into human psychology and evolution, it makes much more sense that many people function better with those beliefs, regardless if a god exists or not.

And it's good that you have allowed your own compassion to reason yourself out of what most gather from the scriptures. That's what I did.

But it's really tricky to get around the notion of hell. If it exists at all, then you must believe many humans will go there. You stated before that those people WANT to be away from God. So I ask you again. Will those people be happier spending eternity in hell than being with God?

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One must ask, why is there a Hell at all? Hell was made for Lucifer when He decided he was as good as God or above God. His righteous pride warped into hubris.

People who have a warped sense of pride (much like Lucifer did) in this life want to be put in a place, after this life, where they can continue on worshipping themselves or loving money (which is the root of all evil). People who worship power, or greed or themselves knowingly at the expense of righteousness are already too far gone anyway. To them, spending an eternity with the Heavenly Father would be Hell.

Whose to say Hell will be all that bad a place anyway? After spending so much time there, whose to say they won't get accustomed to it. As bad as prison is, some people cannot function outside of being institutionalized, much like Shawshank Redemption. They'd rather be dead than live in society as a free person.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dds08 said:

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What the flesh wants is contrary to love. The flesh can be swayed to do things that are not in our best interest and even lead to our own self-destruction.

Wouldn't paths that lead to self-destruction be contrary to the idea of "evolution?"

How could all this not convince someone that evil and good exists, or that there is a source of good/evil?

---

I don't think its correct to say that evolution has our 'best interest' in mind. Or even to say that it couldn't lead to the self destruction of a species.

The genes that get passed on are the genes from the individuals that breed. Surely you can think of some behavior that is contrary to love and is not constructive for our species by our current day moral standards that have helped members of our species breed and pass along the genes that made them successful in breeding.

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"Devolve" that's the word I'm looking for.

The fact that the human flesh will encourage and entice one to choose a course of action(s), long-term, that is contrary to a being's potential, or well-being, at the expense of it's potential, is certainly a reason to not trust it. Of course, certain risks and sacrifices being exceptions.

john32f said:

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Religion is the only facet of life in which we value faith without evidence as being virtuous. If I go to a broker with my life savings and ask him why I should put my savings there and his response is that I should simply have faith in him without any proof whatsoever and I do so, I'm not virtuous, I'm a fool.

Faith without evidence isn't a virtue, it is a convenient crutch to overcome the hurdle of there either being no proof of something or conflicting evidence. You're miraculously cured of cancer at age 27 and get to live a full, long length -- God is great! Praise be him! You're killed in a car wreck at age 21 because someone isn't paying attention and runs a red light -- I know this looks bad, but its okay because even though you can't understand it, God has a plan.

Ultimately, faith is what you hide behind when you realize there is no congruent rectification of the problem of evil with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

And hey, the perks of accepting the above is you no longer need to think of yourself as this wretched creature that deserves to be burning in a pit of fire for eternity absent some dude getting nailed to a cross 2000 years ago. Cheers!

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Do you worship proof and evidence?


Hmmm.... from the way Satan works, I'm pondering on how Satan would exploit a person who has so little respect for faith.

OR

How the Lord would put tests and challenges in your life journey that would get you to see how you used faith unknowingly in the past or get you to realize how you took faith for granted. Perhaps he would give you an opportunity to see how absolute faith in the scientific method/evidence/proof was futile. I dunno. He works mysteriously.

You're not much of a risk taker, are you?

A few things here. So Hell was made for Lucifer as what? A punishment? A place to just keep him separate from heaven?

Also, with God being omnipotent and all, wouldn't He have known, while creating Hell, that his beloved creation (humans) would also end up going there as well? So it's not like you can say "Well God didn't really intend Hell for any humans when He made it.."

If Hell is just a place to be separate from God, why does the Bible have so many scriptures that WARN against it as something to fear? If it were just a place to go hang out without God and enjoy your eternity being a godless heathen, why wouldn't Jesus or other writers of the Bible have said something like "If you love God and want to be with him, then live for him and obey, but if that's not your bag, then God also created a place you can go be at for eternity and do whatever you want without God."?