kurt vonnegut said:

---

Frok said:

---

No doubt personal bias is a strong influence on anything political or religious. We always have to guard ourselves against that.

I'll expand my answer. I believe the bible to be true and I believe the bible we have now is almost identical to the original manuscripts. I believe it is historical sound and has stood the test of time to be considered a reliable historical document.

---

Not trying to be obtuse, but historically sound in what sense? The Bible obviously talks about certain historical events and places and cities and characters who are real. I have heard some Christians talk about miracles as though they are historically proven as well. 'Proof' that a miracle occurred is obviously a more difficult thing than proving that the city of Jerusalem existed 2000 years ago.

---

The largest proof to me is that the fundamental assumptions of Christianity are correct, and were revolutionary at the time they were declared.

Every individual has inherent worth, regardless of relation to you or status. Christianity just builds from there.

BusterAg said:

---

It would take an unsurmountable logical argument, I think, which seems impossible for religion, or some direct miraculous revelation.

I looked into most of them. Not impressed. Love still wins.

---

Maybe it's the Makers Mark speaking, but it sounds like you have different standards upon which you judge Christianity as right and other religions as wrong.

BusterAg said:

---

The largest proof to me is that the fundamental assumptions of Christianity are correct, and were revolutionary at the time they were declared.

---

Which assumptions and how do you KNOW they are correct. I've always considered many of the core beliefs to be unfalsifiable.

AggieRain said:

---

Aggie4Life02 said:

---

AggieRain said:

---

Aggie4Life02 said:

---

Quote:

---

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.44.NASB

---

---

Calvinists

---

...I notice that you gave me the thumbs down for nothing more than quoting Scripture. Ironic.

---

I'm glad to see that you were able to discern that I was giving your use of the verse a thumbs down and not the verse itself. Truth is there are a bunch of folks that struggle with the tenets of Christianity in one form or another. Providing a verse that is essentially a victory lap for the concept of the elect does nothing to address this. Ironic that you don't see that.

---

I guess Jesus shouldn't have said it then. Shame on him.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

The largest proof to me is that the fundamental assumptions of Christianity are correct, and were revolutionary at the time they were declared.

---

Which assumptions and how do you KNOW they are correct. I've always considered many of the core beliefs to be unfalsifiable.

---

i'm guessing the purported validation is just that by accident of history we Americans live in a country founded on the basic ideas of liberalism, which happen to include some broad axioms about individual human worth and dignity that aren't hard to square with things that Jesus said. The country hasn't burned to the ground yet, so this must mean they are capital-t True.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

The largest proof to me is that the fundamental assumptions of Christianity are correct, and were revolutionary at the time they were declared.

---

Which assumptions and how do you KNOW they are correct. I've always considered many of the core beliefs to be unfalsifiable.

---

You cut out the main assumption I was talking about. Jesus taught us that every human being has equal intrinsic worth. That was a revolutionary idea at the time, and it took us millenia to really internalize it. Who knows if and how long it takes us to get there without his revelation.

Maybe that is unfalsifiable, but, it's hard to argue that it's incorrect.

Marco Esquandolas said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

The largest proof to me is that the fundamental assumptions of Christianity are correct, and were revolutionary at the time they were declared.

---

Which assumptions and how do you KNOW they are correct. I've always considered many of the core beliefs to be unfalsifiable.

---

i'm guessing the purported validation is just that by accident of history we Americans live in a country founded on the basic ideas of liberalism, which happen to include some broad axioms about individual human worth and dignity that aren't hard to square with things that Jesus said. The country hasn't burned to the ground yet, so this must mean they are capital-t True.

---

Do you know of anyone before Jesus that taught that every human has equal intrinsic worth? Honestly interested.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

It would take an unsurmountable logical argument, I think, which seems impossible for religion, or some direct miraculous revelation.

I looked into most of them. Not impressed. Love still wins.

---

Maybe it's the Makers Mark speaking, but it sounds like you have different standards upon which you judge Christianity as right and other religions as wrong.

---

I definitely went through a spell where I didn't know if I believed in Christianity or not. Noah and Methusala are troublesome.

There was a period where Christ was either the most profound philosopher ever, or God, but I didn't care much which.

Life experiences moved me.

Poor Thomas gets a bad rap. The other disciples had already seen Jesus, and he hadn't. It wasn't that he doubted Christ, he doubted the others! And not a little while before Jesus had told them to be on their guard (people will say he is here, he is there etc) and not to believe.

I agree. But there are numerous Biblical stories where the characters doubted or initially disobeyed God. God is merciful and love.

https://www.unification.net/ws/theme030.htm

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

I ask myself, "If I were born in the Middle East or India, or China, what god would I be serving today? Would I serve a God at all?"

I cannot be certain of what or whom I would be worshipping. I hope it would be Christ.

But that is just the thing. We have a name/label for God, but I believe He makes Himself known and manifests himself in ways that we know and don't know. We get caught up in labels and names and things that we miss the forest for the trees.

I believe it will be a deeper judgment. God can see the human heart. He can see past religion, facades and peer into the human heart.

Another thing a religion would have to do, to win me over, is overcome the power I see in "loving one's neighbor as oneself", honesty, and love. I truly believe God manifests himself in those things. If those other religions are teaching those things as well, then there's a chance we are all on the same page on some (perhaps not all) levels, but the important ones. The Holy Spirit is the Knower of ALL truth. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is Love.

---

[edited your post to the parts I wish to respond to]

There is obviously a strong correlation between religious beliefs and our environment / where we are born. I'm glad that you do not think all [insert other religion] people automatically go to hell.

What will this deeper judgement look like? Is it a judgment that corrects for all external factors that affect what humans believe while on this Earth?

If our judgement is to be a judgement on our heats and souls, then what is the purpose or advantage to accepting Jesus in this life? As long as we adhere to some version of a morality which promotes 'Love thy neighbor, honesty, and love, then we are basically all on equal footing, no?

---

Quote:

---

There is obviously a strong correlation between religious beliefs and our environment / where we are born. I'm glad that you do not think all [insert other religion] people automatically go to hell.

---

ty

Quote:

---

What will this deeper judgement look like? Is it a judgment that corrects for all external factors that affect what humans believe while on this Earth?

---

I'm not God Himself. I cannot answer for Him. You'd be better off saying a prayer and asking him yourself.

What I can tell you is something I saw in scripture:

Quote:

---

Psalm 52 New International Version (NIV)
Psalm 52

For the director of music. A maskil of David. When Doeg the Edomite had gone to Saul and told him: "David has gone to the house of Ahimelek."

1 Why do you boast of evil, you mighty hero?
Why do you boast all day long,
you who are a disgrace in the eyes of God?
2 You who practice deceit,
your tongue plots destruction;
it is like a sharpened razor.
3 You love evil rather than good,
falsehood rather than speaking the truth.
4 You love every harmful word,
you deceitful tongue!
5 Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin:
He will snatch you up and pluck you from your tent;
he will uproot you from the land of the living.
6 The righteous will see and fear;
they will laugh at you, saying,
7 "Here now is the man
who did not make God his stronghold
but trusted in his great wealth
and grew strong by destroying others!"
8 But I am like an olive tree
flourishing in the house of God;
I trust in God's unfailing love
for ever and ever.
9 For what you have done I will always praise you
in the presence of your faithful people.
And I will hope in your name,
for your name is good.

---

Given the above, at the end of time for our world, it will be pretty easy for the Lord to discern who is a follower of Satan.

AND

Who follows Himself, The Lord:

Quote:

---

John 10:26-28 King James Version (KJV)

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

---

Quote:

---

If our judgement is to be a judgement on our heats and souls, then what is the purpose or advantage to accepting Jesus in this life? As long as we adhere to some version of a morality which promotes 'Love thy neighbor, honesty, and love, then we are basically all on equal footing, no?

---

There you go with names again. Names and labels.

The Father, Son, Holy Ghost,
The I AM WHO I AM,
The One Who Was And Is And Is To Come,
The Wonderful Counselor,
The Supreme, Sovereign Ruler of All Creation
The All Kowing, All-Powerful, Present Everywhere

They are all the same being.

Quote:

---

"As long as we adhere to some version of "morality."

---

I believe this is much more than a matter of "adhering to some form of morality." The term "morality" is just too limiting. It's like trying to put "God" or "freedom" in a box. You simply cannot do it. Morality is part of it though.

It's more about the freedom to choose for oneself good or evil. Once this life is over, you will be put somewhere you can pursue good or evil to its potential; pursuing how good one can be or how evil one can be.


In Job's test, it's amazing the amount of destruction Satan brought upon him. How he destroyed his livestock and all his children. It's amazing the severity of disease he brought upon Job's body. Satan was perhaps jealous of Job, the Lord's servant. This is a prime example of the culmination of evil. There are people out there who perhaps aspire to be this evil.

Perhaps a better question is,

For what (or whose) sake are you adhering to a set of morals? To what end?

dds08 said:

---

Perhaps a better question is,

For what (or whose) sake are you adhering to a set of morals? To what end?

---

I was one that rooted a large part of my belief in considering our own conscious proof of Christianity being right. However, as I have learned more of anthropology, genetics, evolution, it has become quite clear to me that there is no need for a divine bequeathment of morality into our subconscious, as our physiology and cultural evolution provide plenty of explanation for why that feeling of default morality exists.

Quote:

---

cultural evolution provide plenty of explanation for why that feeling of default morality exists.

---

Disagree. Evolution is supposed to favor whatever advances the species. What if harming people does that?

Frok said:

---

Quote:

---

cultural evolution provide plenty of explanation for why that feeling of default morality exists.

---

Disagree. Evolution is supposed to favor whatever advances the species. What if harming people does that?

---

I said cultural evolution, which is different from biological evolution. I believe biological evolution does play a role as well, just not as much.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

On the inside looking out, if I were an unbeliever, I would need to be on the lookout for Satan's encouragement (temptations) to follow him too.

"You're not a sinner, therefore you don't need Jesus nor his sacrifice"

"You've never made an error or hated anyone or used anyone (regardless of whether your action(s) was for their good, for their best.)"

"it's okay to use people if you can get away with it or have a certain amount of power, intelligence, or influence (personal qualities)."

"Get all the money you can get"

"You don't need to be kind, nor exercise self-control, if it feels good, it's right!"

"You're the best thing on God's green earth!" "Look at how you look or look at how much money, power, fortune, fame, intelligence you've amassed!"

---

So. . . . basically, don't be a dick. If you were an unbeliever, you would not believe in Satan or that there is a supernatural force for evil encouraging you to do these things.

There are good reasons to not be a narcissistic, egomanical, manipulative, greedy, self-indulgent, A-hole. If 'Because God says so' works for you, then great! But this board has been over this argument a million times. Just because someone does not believe, does not mean they are morally bankrupt.

---

Quote:

---

If you were an unbeliever, you would not believe in Satan or that there is a supernatural force for evil encouraging you to do these things.

---

I believe an unbeliever can, to the very least, acknowledge both Satan and the Lord exists. They could be at a point where they are deciding whether or not to choose one or the other.


So what you're saying is, if you didn't believe in Christ, then you would NOT know it was Satan encouraging you to sin.

If one were to live their entire life and never question the source of good and evil......
no one could possibly be that shallow.


Temptation comes from two sources
1. Our Flesh
2. Satan

Sooner or later, in life, all face challenges that test what a person will choose to do. Funny how freedom works.

dds08 said:

---

Perhaps a better question is,

For what (or whose) sake are you adhering to a set of morals? To what end?

---

The continuation of our species and this little experiment in life. There may be no God or any cosmological significance to our existence, but I think some personal significance is preferable to no significance at all. . . even if that personal significance is nothing more than a response / result of human evolution. Not a very uplifting answer.

dds08 said:

---

I believe an unbeliever can, to the very least, acknowledge both Satan and the Lord exists. They could be at a point where they are deciding whether or not to choose one or the other.

---

Disagree. An unbeliever does not believe in Satan or the Lord. Even a Satanist believes in God, they just aren't followers. Someone that thinks Satan and/or God exist are, by definition, not an unbeliever.

Quote:

---

So what you're saying is, if you didn't believe in Christ, then you would NOT know it was Satan encouraging you to sin.

If one were to live their entire life and never question the source of good and evil......
no one could possibly be that shallow.

---

I don't think Satan encourages sin or that God encourages good. I think the origin or our desire to do 'good' or 'evil' are biological [edit] or environmental.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

What about the person who contracts AIDS from raping someone? I'm sure by now it's happened at least once.

How about all those people who contracted "gold fever", during the gold rush, went up the mountains and resorted to cannibalism all because they were too impatient to hang out in Southern California 3-4 months so the winter could pass?

Germany was so set on conquering Russia, they let the cold get them too. Power hungry leaders.

---

What about those people. Maybe my brain is fried - but I don't see your point.

---

Are you purposely closing your eyes to the obvious greed, lust, and coveting going on? This is work of the flesh.

We can mention how evolved we are, but we are still susceptible to sin. We get so bogged down by the problems we make for ourselves (due to sin), that we lose sight of the course of action that helps us all reach our potential.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

dds08 said:


I believe an unbeliever can, to the very least, acknowledge both Satan and the Lord exists. They could be at a point where they are deciding whether or not to choose one or the other.

---

Disagree. An unbeliever does not believe in Satan or the Lord. Even a Satanist believes in God, they just aren't followers. Someone that thinks Satan and/or God exist are, by definition, not an unbeliever.

---

How can you possibly speak for every single person who does not believe God or Satan exists?

My definition of an unbeliever is someone who has yet to admit to being a sinner, choose The Lord as their savior, and follow him.

What do you call someone who is teetering on choosing to follow Satan or follow the Lord?

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

I believe an unbeliever can, to the very least, acknowledge both Satan and the Lord exists. They could be at a point where they are deciding whether or not to choose one or the other.

---

Disagree. An unbeliever does not believe in Satan or the Lord. Even a Satanist believes in God, they just aren't followers. Someone that thinks Satan and/or God exist are, by definition, not an unbeliever.

Quote:

---

So what you're saying is, if you didn't believe in Christ, then you would NOT know it was Satan encouraging you to sin.

If one were to live their entire life and never question the source of good and evil......
no one could possibly be that shallow.

---

I don't think Satan encourages sin or that God encourages good. I think the origin or our desire to do 'good' or 'evil' are biological [edit] or environmental.

---

So we are in half agreement then.

I already stated sin partly originates in the flesh. You just aren't too convinced on the whole "Satan" part.

Well, the fact that our flesh can be the source of our desire to do evil, tells me that it's vulnerable. Its integrity is flawed in some form or fashion.

Sometimes the flesh does so well in convincing us to do evil, the evil we do becomes compulsive. We don't want to do evil but cannot stop. Sooner or later something will give. The body can only take so much vice.

The next question one must ask is, "if the flesh is vulnerable..... vulnerable to what?" What outside of it is acting upon it?

We can point to the environment surrounding us, but that would just be a cop-out, making excuses, and not taking responsibility. Like Adam blamed Eve.

It's plain and obvious [Edit] the human flesh is able to limit freedom. Figure it out. Go searching. Seek. If you don't want to acknowledge Satan, that's fine and okay. Keep looking till you find an answer you can live with.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

Perhaps a better question is,

For what (or whose) sake are you adhering to a set of morals? To what end?

---

The continuation of our species and this little experiment in life. There may be no God or any cosmological significance to our existence, but I think some personal significance is preferable to no significance at all. . . even if that personal significance is nothing more than a response / result of human evolution. Not a very uplifting answer.

---

Thanks for sharing.

Even Jesus wishes mankind to continue as well.

Quote:

---

John 10:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

---

dds08 said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

What about the person who contracts AIDS from raping someone? I'm sure by now it's happened at least once.

How about all those people who contracted "gold fever", during the gold rush, went up the mountains and resorted to cannibalism all because they were too impatient to hang out in Southern California 3-4 months so the winter could pass?

Germany was so set on conquering Russia, they let the cold get them too. Power hungry leaders.

---

What about those people. Maybe my brain is fried - but I don't see your point.

---

Are you purposely closing your eyes to the obvious greed, lust, and coveting going on? This is work of the flesh.

We can mention how evolved we are, but we are still susceptible to sin. We get so bogged down by the problems we make for ourselves (due to sin), that we lose sight of the course of action that helps us all reach our potential.

---

Huh? No, I recognize there is lots of bad stuff in the world - I don't see how its relevant to this thread.

dds08 said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

dds08 said:


I believe an unbeliever can, to the very least, acknowledge both Satan and the Lord exists. They could be at a point where they are deciding whether or not to choose one or the other.

---

Disagree. An unbeliever does not believe in Satan or the Lord. Even a Satanist believes in God, they just aren't followers. Someone that thinks Satan and/or God exist are, by definition, not an unbeliever.

---

How can you possibly speak for every single person who does not believe God or Satan exists?

My definition of an unbeliever is someone who has yet to admit to being a sinner, choose The Lord as their savior, and follow him.

What do you call someone who is teetering on choosing to follow Satan or follow the Lord?

---

We're using different definitions. I think an unbeliever is someone that does not believe. . . . cuz you know, thats the dictionary definition. You seem to think that an unbeliever is someone who may or may not believe.

dds08 said:

---

On the inside looking out, if I were an unbeliever, I would need to be on the lookout for Satan's encouragement (temptations) to follow him too.

"You're not a sinner, therefore you don't need Jesus nor his sacrifice"

"You've never made an error or hated anyone or used anyone (regardless of whether your action(s) was for their good, for their best.)"

"it's okay to use people if you can get away with it or have a certain amount of power, intelligence, or influence (personal qualities)."

"Get all the money you can get"

"You don't need to be kind, nor exercise self-control, if it feels good, it's right!"

"You're the best thing on God's green earth!" "Look at how you look or look at how much money, power, fortune, fame, intelligence you've amassed!"

"Go for the quick and easy, expedient and convenient!" All we can count on is the right here and right now! The short-term. The long-term doesn't exist!"

"You're doing it wrong if you're not ambitious and arrogant."

---

On second thought, this may not be how Satan works at all.

He tailors his attack to each and every individual human, focusing on areas where they are the weakest and taking advantage of said weakness.

dds08 said:

---

On second thought, this may not be how Satan works at all.

He tailors his attack to each and every individual human, focusing on areas where they are the weakest and taking advantage of said weakness.

---

Does Satan convince otherwise 'good' people to follow him at the detriment to their own soul? If so, why do you think God would permit it?

I don't mean this as a simple "Why is there evil in the world?" question. Its one thing to say that evil exists as an option for us to follow in the spirit of preserving free will. Its another to say that God decides to allow evil to lie and manipulate us into freely making the wrong choice.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

dds08 said:

---

On second thought, this may not be how Satan works at all.

He tailors his attack to each and every individual human, focusing on areas where they are the weakest and taking advantage of said weakness.

---

Does Satan convince otherwise 'good' people to follow him at the detriment to their own soul? If so, why do you think God would permit it?

I don't mean this as a simple "Why is there evil in the world?" question. Its one thing to say that evil exists as an option for us to follow in the spirit of preserving free will. Its another to say that God decides to allow evil to lie and manipulate us into freely making the wrong choice.

---

God allows/permits us to be tested by Satan to see if wetruly love Him, the Lord.

If you are not faced with challenges in life, how else will you grow?

Challenges expose weaknesses and give you an opportunity to shore them up, harden up and grow in character.

Sometimes the Lord and Satan will make a bet on you, much like what happened to Job.

I agree and very insightful post.

Can you challenge your 5 year old without sending him out to walk alone on Bourbon Street?

At least your 5 year old knows for a fact you exist and can touch and see you. In reality, your 5 year old would be more equipped to handle himself than any adult on this planet where no religion can prove that their god is the right one.

I'm drawing a blank.

Could you explain it another way?

Ty

With my scrupulosity that is one of the things I keep telling myself about the Job analogy. And I know God wins in the end because I believe in Jesus.