Heaven: Mansions/Streets of Gold - Hell: Lake of Fire

11,628 Views | 188 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Zobel
Zobel
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Tell you what. You find me one father of the church who will support your premise that the Father slays the Son and I'll examine it. Until then, I'll continue to reject it outright as nuts.

I noticed you edited it out earlier. Why? Lean into it man, embrace it! This is the core of your soteriology!

////

One other thing I was thinking about. You seem to be viewing the sacrifice on the cross in light of the OT sacrifices. In reality, we should understand the OT sacrifices in light of the cross. The death of Christ Jesus was not a super effective version of the death of animals. The sacrifices of the animals were a shadow of the reality of the cross. The entire temple structure and the Law were there to point to the cross. People were prepared to understand that sin caused death and that death was the means to correct the sin. They were prepared to understand the sacrificial nature of atonement because of their experience of the foretype. This does not make the foretype real or correct.

God told them I desire mercy not sacrifice. He meant it. He didn't want sacrifice, He doesn't need it. That the death of Christ was the means to reconcile humanity doesn't mean God wants to punish. Looking back, we can see the hilasterion covering the Law, and the blood is poured on it to atone us from our failures. Not to prevent God from punishing us, but as the true means of our reconciliation. We have to look from the cross backwards.

I was interested to see that this is exactly how St John instructs us to view Hebrews 9:20-22.

Quote:

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Why the almost? Why did he qualify it? Because those [ordinances] were not a perfect purification, nor a perfect remission, but half-complete and in a very small degree. But in this case He says, This is the blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you, for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

Where then is the book? He purified their minds. They themselves then were the books of the New Testament. But where are the vessels of the ministry? They are themselves. And where is the tabernacle? Again, they are; for I will dwell in them, He says, and walk in them. 2 Corinthians 6:16

But they were not sprinkled with scarlet wool, nor yet with hyssop. Why was this? Because the cleansing was not bodily but spiritual, and the blood was spiritual. How? It flowed not from the body of irrational animals, but from the Body prepared by the Spirit. With this blood not Moses but Christ sprinkled us, through the word which was spoken; This is the blood of the New Testament, for the remission of sins. This word, instead of hyssop, having been dipped in the blood, sprinkles all. And there indeed the body was cleansed outwardly, for the purifying was bodily; but here, since the purifying is spiritual, it enters into the soul, and cleanses it, not being simply sprinkled over, but gushing forth in our souls. The initiated understand what is said. And in their case indeed one sprinkled just the surface; but he who was sprinkled washed it off again; for surely he did not go about continually stained with blood. But in the case of the soul it is not so, but the blood is mixed with its very substance, making it vigorous and pure, and leading it to the very unapproachable beauty.

Henceforward then he shows that His death is the cause not only of confirmation, but also of purification. For inasmuch as death was thought to be an odious thing, and especially that of the cross, he says that it purified, even a precious purification, and in regard to greater things. Therefore the sacrifices preceded, because of this blood. Therefore the lambs; everything was for this cause.
swimmerbabe11
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Wargograw, I forget, what is your denomination affiliation? (I wish we could have flair like reddit does)

Every time this subject comes up, I find myself wanting the list and the definitions of all the options for the different soteriological theories.
wargograw
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It makes perfect sense. In Christ those who were formerly wicked are now righteous, so he is not justifying the wicked. But that only way that is possible is if the punishment for those sins is meted out in some way. In your theology, they didn't have to be, which means you've either cut that verse out of your Bible, or you think the Lord is an abomination to himself. And yes, abject forgiveness with no justice is indeed completely foreign to God's nature. That's why the Gospel is so brilliant: that through the death of his son God could be just AND justify sinners.

You show in your response to the Abraham/Isaac thing that you don't understand the position at all. No one said it's "such an awesome thing for a father to kill his son." It's an awesome thing in the particular case of the Gospel because it is the way our sins can be forgiven.
dds08
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I've heard it put this way. "People send themselves to Hell."

Freedom

Free-will

The price of a life in paradise with Jesus is free. It's a free gift. A gift humans can accept or reject.

On the other hand, there is no free lunch. Spending eternity with Jesus at a cost of the alternative; spending it with Satan. For all, we know, Satan tests us to see if we want to follow him, just as God does.

Unlike how Jesus died for our sins so that we could have eternal, abundant life, I sincerely doubt Satan would die for anyone.

Only if one had a warped, backward moral compass that shuns righteousness, honesty, and love, do I see anyone following Satan.

I have a hunch the only people who end up in Hell will be the ones who want to be there.
Zobel
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Are you serious? Those who were formerly wicked are now righteous so he's not justifying the wicked?

How did they become righteous? They were justified, made righteous. How? By blood. How was the blood shed? In your view, by God the Father. So God the father justified the wicked.

///

The sin doesn't have to be punished. No. The sin has to be healed, destroyed, taken away. Compare the atonement in Leviticus 16. The sins of the people are placed on the live goat who is released into the wilderness. The goat who takes on the sin is not punished or beaten or even killed. Christ is what is foretold by all of the sacrifices. He is the paschal lamb, with no broken bones. He is the goat who is slain to purify the most holy place. He is the goat who lives and was sent away who took on the sins of the people.

This is my own opinion but I think the two goats are Christ's two natures. As a man He died for the blood of atonement; as God He took on sins and swallowed them up in His utter righteousness, but lives. He descended into hades, the wilderness; but as God death could not hold him.
dermdoc
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Are you a Calvinist?
Texaggie7nine
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wargograw said:

It makes perfect sense. In Christ those who were formerly wicked are now righteous, so he is not justifying the wicked. But that only way that is possible is if the punishment for those sins is meted out in some way. In your theology, they didn't have to be, which means you've either cut that verse out of your Bible, or you think the Lord is an abomination to himself. And yes, abject forgiveness with no justice is indeed completely foreign to God's nature. That's why the Gospel is so brilliant: that through the death of his son God could be just AND justify sinners.

You show in your response to the Abraham/Isaac thing that you don't understand the position at all. No one said it's "such an awesome thing for a father to kill his son." It's an awesome thing in the particular case of the Gospel because it is the way our sins can be forgiven.
This back and forth is a large reason for my falling out of belief. K2 makes the rational argument, but you make the argument that the bible makes... sometimes, as it is a very schizo book.

Rationally, any god that is of love would only have 1 reason for punishment. That would be restorative punishment. Meaning that it that the subject of the punishment, ultimately is being made better for it.

Any god that is of wrath would follow the line of punishment for the sake of punishment. Meaning, because you have done something against god, he deservedly gets angry and wants you to suffer because that is "justice". This, of course, is a perverse justice and a very human style of justice. To argue that the bible supports this line of justice, in some places, is rational. To want to follow a god that uses that line of justice, is no different than worshipping out of fear. To want a god that inflicts that type of justice is sick, but also very human.

I do not see how more christians do not see the insanity of "you did something against my rules, so someone has to pay. IN BLOOD!", when most of them grow up in churches, as I did, which preach "God is love".

The Sermon on the Mount would be the most hypocritical act of the god of the bible if you really understand what is being said. For we are being commanded to love our enemy, forgive and never to be angry with our neighbours. We are to turn our cheeks, but God has every right to wrath and retribution?

It was my christian heart that lead me to understand that restorative punishment is the only legitimate kind and any other desire for "justice" is born of ill will and not from love. Sure you can say you desire bad things to happen to someone who hurt someone you love, and that is because you love them so much, but I say that is selective love and selective hate. Truly the only moral ground to stand on would be indiscriminate love, which so many followers of God claims He is a practitioner of.

In that case, the only way to see the cross with that state of mind would require the summoning of some power beyond that of our God and some law greater that God is trying to protect us from that demands horrible punishment for those that "sin". And that Jesus was sent not to save us from God's wrath, but some greater power that God had to use Jesus to find some kind of back door loophole to get us around the terrible law we were forced under.




7nine
wargograw
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He lays on Christ the iniquity of his people, punished that iniquity. Now, by that act, through union with christ, God can justify his people. What about that doesn't make sense? If you don't believe in imputed righteousness, then fine, you don't have to be rude about it.

There is a propiatory and an expiatory animal in the sacrificial system. Christ was both. He provided the propitiation and he also takes our sins "outside of the city."
wargograw
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Also, I'll respond to this post later when I get a chance. Marking it here so I don't forget.
wargograw
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Why does that matter?
Zobel
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So he can justify the wicked because he first did something to make them not wicked? This is somehow not justify?

The word for justify in the Bible is dikaioo, it means to make righteous. So God can't make us righteous while we were yet wicked. Yet He did.

You really don't see that this is illogical?
wargograw
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k2aggie07 said:

So he can justify the wicked because he first did something to make them not wicked? This is somehow not justify?

The word for justify in the Bible is dikaioo, it means to make righteous. So God can't make us righteous while we were yet wicked. Yet He did.

You really don't see that this is illogical?


You're not getting it. The message of that verse in the proverbs is that to declare a sinner righteous with no punishment is an abomination. God punishes, so no abomination. That makes perfect sense. In your theology, he just wantonly forgives men like Hitler, and you want to herald him as more worthy of praise than the one who did the things I'm laying out. That's absurd. Everyone knows it's absurd. And the second your local judge ever did that you'd say the same.

Furthermore, you have not laid out how your theology would apply that verse.
dermdoc
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Just to get just to get an idea of where you are coming from because it sounds like pretty textbook Calvinism. If you do not want to answer, no big deal.
dermdoc
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wargograw said:

k2aggie07 said:

So he can justify the wicked because he first did something to make them not wicked? This is somehow not justify?

The word for justify in the Bible is dikaioo, it means to make righteous. So God can't make us righteous while we were yet wicked. Yet He did.

You really don't see that this is illogical?


You're not getting it. The message of that verse in the proverbs is that to declare a sinner righteous with no punishment is an abomination. God punishes, so no abomination. That makes perfect sense. In your theology, he just wantonly forgives men like Hitler, and you want to herald him as more worthy of praise than the one who did the things I'm laying out. That's absurd. Everyone knows it's absurd. And the second your local judge ever did that you'd say the same.

Furthermore, you have not laid out how your theology would apply that verse.
There is a big difference between what a local judge does and eternal torment. And to my knowledge, judges are not described as love which God is. And no judge would be considered just if he gave a sentence of eternal punishment just for never hearing of him. In fact, that judge would be considered a monster.
Zobel
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"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."

Seems to me in your theology God does both. He condemns the righteous man to justify the wicked.

It doesn't say a single word about punishment.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."

Seems to me in your theology God does both. He condemns the righteous man to justify the wicked.

It doesn't say a single word about punishment.
God is not under the law. He commanded Abraham to kill his son. Does that make Abraham or God a murderer?
Zobel
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I'm not the one that constrained God have to punish sin before forgiving it. Take that up with the other guy.
PacifistAg
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And if you're punishing, are you really forgiving? If someone owes me a debt, and I forgive that debt, then no payment is required. If someone pays that debt on the debtor's behalf, then the debt isn't forgiven. It's been paid, but not forgiven. If my son hits his sister, and she hits him back, then it's hard to say that she then forgives him if she drops it afterwards. Her desire for revenge was met, so she was content to move on. But if he hits her and, without seeking revenge, she decides to "drop it" and hold no animosity, then that is forgiveness.

I heard a Palestinian man put it beautifully. "Forgiveness isn't giving up your right to justice, but giving up your just right for revenge." If revenge is exacted, especially against an innocent party, then that's not forgiveness.
wargograw
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k2aggie07 said:

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."

Seems to me in your theology God does both. He condemns the righteous man to justify the wicked.

It doesn't say a single word about punishment.


Yes, because of that divine transaction of double imputation he could be just and the justifier. Our sins were laid on Christ so in that legal sense he was no longer "righteous." So God condemned him and punished him as he is so just to do.

Again, you still have no answer for your own questions either. Is God an abomination to himself or not?
wargograw
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First off yes I am a Calvinist. I'm glad you think penal substitutionary atonement is textbook Calvinism. If only we could convince our "traditionalist" (Arminian) Baptist friends of this . They think it's compatible with their theology when it really isn't. But that's a whole other thing.

And the analogy of the judge breaks down, as they all do. I'm just saying any judge who does not rightly enforce the law is rightly criticized in our society. There is nothing loving about God wantonly forgiving sin.
wargograw
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What do y'all think was in the cup of Gethsemane?

And what does Christ "becoming a curse for us" mean?
PacifistAg
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Quote:

There is nothing loving about God wantonly forgiving sin.
Like the father forgave the prodigal son? There was no punishment there. There was no need for blood. There was only the father longingly waiting and watching for his son to return from squandering everything he was given, and when seeing his sinful son returning, ran to meet him, throw his arms around him, drape him with the best robes and prepared a massive celebration.

You say there's nothing "loving" about that, but Christ said that's exactly the kind of love that the Father has for us. Sure, it appears as foolishness to the world, but the kind of love that pleads for the forgiveness of your own murderers is the radical love of God.
dermdoc
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wargograw said:

First off yes I am a Calvinist. I'm glad you think penal substitutionary atonement is textbook Calvinism. If only we could convince our "traditionalist" (Arminian) Baptist friends of this . They think it's compatible with their theology when it really isn't. But that's a whole other thing.

And the analogy of the judge breaks down, as they all do. I'm just saying any judge who does not rightly enforce the law is rightly criticized in our society. There is nothing loving about God wantonly forgiving sin.
So if somebody hurts me by saying falsehoods about my character and I confront them and forgive them, that is not an expression of love? And did not Christ say we should forgive seventy times seven because of our love? And that we should love our enemies? Why would Christ tell us to do something that is against the nature of God?
wargograw
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I've addressed this already.
wargograw
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Because he forgave us through Christ, we can forgive anyone. And because vengeance is his, he will repay, we never have to avenge ourselves, but can "leave it to the WRATH OF GOD."
dermdoc
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Why is Gehenna even translated to the word hell? Other geographic locations like Gethsemane are not. Almost makes you think somebody had an agenda.
dermdoc
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So an atheist can not forgive anybody?
wargograw
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dermdoc said:

So an atheist can not forgive anybody?


That's a whole other matter.
wargograw
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dermdoc said:

Why is Gehenna even translated to the word hell? Other geographic locations like Gethsemane are not. Almost makes you think somebody had an agenda.


No idea of the history there. I'll look into it. Thanks.
Zobel
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Divine transaction? Double imputation? Legal sense?

Where is this found in scripture? What scripture says Christ was no longer righteous in a legal sense, or in any sense for that matter?

What scripture says God condemned Christ and punished Him?

Of course God is not an abomination to Himself. But you're forgetting one very key fact. Christ Jesus is our judge, not the Father. Christ Himself tells us this: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son." And when does this happen? Again the words of the Lord tell us: "The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day" and again "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." and again "For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done."

This judgment is on the day of judgment, as many scriptures testify. The LORD will judge, and the LORD is Christ:
  • For according to a man's deeds, He repays him; according to a man's ways, He brings consequences. Job 34:11
  • For God will bring every deed into judgment, along with every hidden thing, whether good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14
  • He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His faithfulness. Psalm 96:13
  • He judges the world with justice; He will govern the people with equity. Psalm 9:8
  • Tell the righteous it will be well for them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their labor. Woe to the wicked; disaster is upon them! For they will be repaid with what their hands have done. Isaiah 3:10-11
  • And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. Acts 10:42

So again, you would require Christ to judge himself as wicked, for starters, which makes no sense. And the judgment has not come. Christ will indeed judge people justly, because He is righteous and just. And He will indeed judge people by their deeds, by who they are.

What does the scripture say about His judgment? "Woman where are they who accuse you?Has no one condemned you?...Neither I do condemn you. Go and sin no more from now on." John 8:10-11

He is not required to perform some legal sleight of hand. Through His death, we die. Through His resurrection, we live. Through His becoming sin (and thus destroying sin) we become His Righteousness. We participate in Him, so that when He comes, when He judges, we actually will be righteous. Not legally declared, but actual.

The fathers teach us, from Colossians 2:14

But Christ was sold because he took our condition upon himself, not our sins themselves; he is not held to the price of sin, because he himself did not commit sin. And so he made a contract at a price for our debt, not for money for himself; he took away the debtor's bond, set aside the moneylender, freed the debtor. He alone paid what was owed by all. We ourselves were not permitted to escape from bondage. He undertook this on our behalf, so that he might drive away the slavery of the world, restore the liberty of paradise and grant new grace through the honor we received by his sharing of our nature. This by way of a mystery. - St Ambrose

See to it that we do not again become debtors to the old contract. Christ came once; he found the certificate of our ancestral indebtedness which Adam wrote and signed. Adam contracted the debt; by our subsequent sins we increased the amount owed. In this contract are written a curse, and sin, and death and the condemnation of the law. Christ took all these away and pardoned them. St. Paul cries out and says: "The decree of our sins which was against us, he has taken it completely away, nailing it to the cross." He did not say "erasing the decree,' nor did he say "blotting it out," but "nailing it to the cross," so that no trace of it might remain. This is why he did not erase it, but tore it to pieces. - St John Chrysostom

At the sixth hour the spotless victim, our Lord and Savior, was offered to the Father, and mounting the cross for the salvation of the whole world he destroyed the sins of the human race. Despoiling principalities and powers, he delivered them over publicly (Colossians 2:15), and he freed all of us who were subject to and burdened by the record of our unpayable debt, removing it from our midst and fixing it to the trophy of his cross (Colossians 2:14) - St John Cassian

For this reason the Lord patiently endured for our sake a death He was not obliged to undergo, to redeem us, who were obliged to suffer death, from servitude to the devil and death, by which I mean death both of the soul and of the body, temporary and eternal. Since He gave His blood, which was sinless and therefore guiltless, as a ransom for us who were liable to punishment because of our sins, He redeemed us from our guilt. He forgave us our sins, tore up the record of them on the Cross and delivered us from the Devil's tyranny (cf. Col 2:14-15) - St Gregory Palamas
dds08
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Martin Q. Blank said:

k2aggie07 said:

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD."

Seems to me in your theology God does both. He condemns the righteous man to justify the wicked.

It doesn't say a single word about punishment.
God is not under the law. He commanded Abraham to kill his son. Does that make Abraham or God a murderer?
No one was murdered! Issac was spared.
PacifistAg
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wargograw said:

I've addressed this already.
This parable directly counters your claim that it would be unloving for God to "wantonly forgive sin".
dermdoc
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As do the parables of the lost coin and sheep.
PacifistAg
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Exactly. We actually read that chapter last night with our children. It's such a beautiful display of just how much God loves us. The story of Hosea and Gomer is also a great example. That kind of love is about as far from "unloving" as one can get.
wargograw
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RetiredAg said:

wargograw said:

I've addressed this already.
This parable directly counters your claim that it would be unloving for God to "wantonly forgive sin".


And I addressed why that is bad usage. Refer to that.
 
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