RetiredAg said:

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Exactly. We actually read that chapter last night with our children. It's such a beautiful display of just how much God loves us. The story of Hosea and Gomer is also a great example. That kind of love is about as far from "unloving" as one can get.

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Must've skipped the parts in Hosea about God seeking vengeance like a bear who's lost its cubs, tearing open their breast and devouring it like a lion, as a wild beast would rip them open. Can't blame you.

It's found throughout Romans. It's found in 2 Corinthians 5:21. You don't believe in it. I do. I'm happy to address the atonement, but we don't need to do a whole debate on justification.

But I thought you said he can wantonly forgive sin? Now he's judging people by their deeds? What happened there?

Please answer my questions about the curse and the cup. Curious how you address that.

And if Gehenna means hell, why did Paul never talk about Gehenna in his ministry to the Gentiles? Why was the word Gehenna never used anywhere else except in one verse in James? Basically that would be like me telling my kids that if they did not straighten up, I was sending them to Baylor. And then somebody translated the word Baylor into the word hell. And put a lot of pagan stuff in it.

dermdoc said:

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And if Gehenna means hell, why did Paul never talk about Gehenna in his ministry to the Gentiles? Why was the word Gehenna never used anywhere else except in one verse in James? Basically that would be like me telling my kids that if they did not straighten up, I was sending them to Baylor. And then somebody translated the word Baylor into the word hell. And put a lot of pagan stuff in it.

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Is there a difference there?

I recommend reading "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It sheds very interesting thought on nearly unthinkable subjects.

I confidently believe Annihilism is simply incompatible with tradition and scripture.

As for literal musings upon Mansions or what not, no idea. But, I do know work is part of our perfected state (see: The Garden before the Fall), so I bet God has a whole crazy bit of creation going on with us taking part in the new Earth.

Minecraft, dudes.

wargograw said:

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RetiredAg said:

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wargograw said:

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I've addressed this already.

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This parable directly counters your claim that it would be unloving for God to "wantonly forgive sin".

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And I addressed why that is bad usage. Refer to that.

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Yes, I've seen you "address" it.

Athanasius said:

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I recommend reading "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It sheds very interesting thought on nearly unthinkable subjects.

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It worked for me for a few years. Then I moved on to annihilationism, then disbelief.

It's a process.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Athanasius said:

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I recommend reading "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It sheds very interesting thought on nearly unthinkable subjects.

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It worked for me for a few years. Then I moved on to annihilationism, then disbelief.

It's a process.

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I don't see how that follows, but cool starry bra.

wargograw said:

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It's found throughout Romans. It's found in 2 Corinthians 5:21. You don't believe in it. I do. I'm happy to address the atonement, but we don't need to do a whole debate on justification.

But I thought you said he can wantonly forgive sin? Now he's judging people by their deeds? What happened there?

Please answer my questions about the curse and the cup. Curious how you address that.

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Salvation is a multipart event. The Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection of Christ, the General Resurrection, and the Last Judgment are all part of it.

You make it out as if without the Father punishing, killing the Son, the Son cannot forgive sins. This is hogwash, this is not the purpose of the cross. This is not found in Romans or any other scripture. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says he becomes sin, not that he was punished for our sins by the Father. He became sin, and in doing so destroyed sin. "And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." How can the King of Glory become sin and be tarnished by sin? Answer: He can't, in becoming sin, sin is consumed. The same way as in dying He destroys death.


The Son of Man has the authority to forgive sin. He tells us that over and over gain. He also will come and judge the living and the dead and render according to their deeds. There is no conflict between the two.

Christ forgives our sins while we are yet sinners. He reconciles us through his blood and in doing so cancels the ancestral curse, our inheritance, the consequences of sin. The judgment is to come, for this reason St Paul says "the doers of the Law will be justified ...on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

I don't understand your question about the cup and the curse.

Athanasius said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Athanasius said:

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I recommend reading "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It sheds very interesting thought on nearly unthinkable subjects.

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It worked for me for a few years. Then I moved on to annihilationism, then disbelief.

It's a process.

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I don't see how that follows, but cool starry bra.

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You haven't discovered how loving it would be to kill babies yet. (probably an inside forum joke)

Yeah we've been over all that so I'm going to leave it.

What is the cup that Christ wishes would be taken away? And when Galatians 3 says that he was made a curse for us, "made" by who and what does that mean?

The cup was His death. St John Chrysostom explains that His human nature and will feared death, while the Divine was in perfect harmony with the Divine Will (hence the "nevertheless...").

"Was made" is not what the scriptures say. The Greek is Aorist tense of became, having become. The Berean literal translation says "having become". Only the KJV says "being made". But the sense here of made is not fashioned by an artificer, again, but becoming as through a change, to come about, to happen. (Old fashioned one might say "I was made to be a fool" in the same sense.)

k2aggie07 said:

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The cup was His death. St John Chrysostom explains that His human nature and will feared death, while the Divine was in perfect harmony with the Divine Will (hence the "nevertheless...").

"Was made" is not what the scriptures say. The Greek is Aorist tense of became, having become. The Berean literal translation says "having become". Only the KJV says "being made". But the sense here of made is not fashioned by an artificer, again, but becoming as through a change, to come about, to happen. (Old fashioned one might say "I was made to be a fool" in the same sense.)

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How could it be just referring to his death when several of his disciples and many early Christians died the same death and did it with profound joy in their hearts not worrying at all? What do you make of all the Old Testament references to the cup of God's wrath?

Gotcha on the Greek, I think. In what way did he become a curse though?

I admit I had to look up "artificer."

I would be speculating. Perfect knowledge of the horrible death He was facing was no doubt a horrible burden.

But even on the cross, Christ witnesses to the love of the Father, not His punishment:

Psalm 22 says: For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

I was reading Fr Thomas Hopko today where he gave a talk, and in response to a question he gives this amazing off-the-cuff statement about martyria, which literally means witness. Made me think about what part of of the cross was substitution and what part becomes communion:

Quote:

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Talking about theosis -- Orthodox love theosis, deification -- what's theosis? It's when you're hanging dead on the cross, abandoned by God, who is your own Father, Abba, with whom all things are possible, and He says, "Die," and your friends run away and you're all alone and you say, "Father, forgive them. Into your hands I give my life." That's theosis. That's a divine life on earth. That's the life of love. What's interesting here, again, against certain early Christian traditions: any person can enter into that. They don't have to be learned. It's not for the erudite. It's not for the initiate. It's for lovers. It's for lovers, and worship is fundamentally about love and keeping the commandments. So this witnessing is there.

If it's really a witnessing with Christ, it has to be a death, whether or not you are actually killed as an actual martyr, it's got to be about dying. But it's got to be about dying in love. The Apostle Paul says, "I can give my body to be burned, and if I have not love, it profits me nothing." St. Cyprian of Carthage said, "A person could volunteer for martyrdom and die for the name of Jesus, and go to hell, because it was self-will and not to the glory of God and the good of the brother." One of the most terrifying sentences in the Scripture is:

Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord!" is going to enter the kingdom, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

He says: "On that day" -- that yom of the Lord, that yom Yahweh, -- the Kyriake hemera -- many, hoi polloi -- it says it three times -- "many will come and say, 'We cast out demons in your name. We prophesied in your name. We did miracles in your name.' "

" '...We founded the Center for Early Christian Studies in your name. We gave a talk about all this stuff, pirating all these other people's material' " And he'll say, "Depart from me, evil-doer. I don't know you." Because the will of the Father in heaven is love, and it's the testimony to that love.

But what's very interesting relative to the actual martyrs and the worship issue is that when you have words being put into the mouth of martyrs in hagiographical literature, their prayer's almost always a Eucharistic prayer. The great example would be Polycarp of Smyrna. It's one of the first authentic acts of the martyrs that we have. (We have some law courts, Justin the Philosopher, and so on.) They're going to put him to death, and he says, "First, give me some time." And they acquiesce, and he prays for every one of his people by name. Then he says, "Okay, I'm ready." They start to tie him. He says, "You don't have to tie me." Then he says a prayer where he's offering himself to God as a bread to be eaten! Ignatius of Antioch uses the same imagery. "I want to become God's bread."

And it's interesting that in Ignatius, when he's saying to the Romans, "Don't spring me; don't get me out of this," he says, "because I want to be a" -- he doesn't say martyr; he doesn't even say Christian -- he says, "I want to be a human being. An anthropos. Let me be a human being," because Christ shows us what a human being is, and you can't be a human being unless you're in communion with God. So this martyrdom is there, and the Eucharistic prayers are connected to the actual deaths of saints....

Another incredible sentence in the Scripture is in the Colossian letter, the first chapter, where St. Paul said that he has his ministry from God and that he wants "to complete what is lacking in the suffering of Christ for the sake of the Church which is his Body to which I have been called as a minister, as a servant." I went with that text to my professor of dogmatic theology, Dr. Verhovskoy -- and I've been teaching his teaching my entire life; my vocation is to be a microphone -- and I asked him, "Prof., what is lacking in the suffering of Christ? How can you say 'to complete what is lacking in the suffering of Christ?" And he said, "My dear, nothing is lacking except its actualization in us."

So Jesus didn't die so that we don't have to suffer or take the cross. He died so we can, and be victorious over the devil, and that's what a martyr is. A martyr proves that you can trample down death by death by the Lord's power just like Jesus did! Because he makes that possible...

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