Nothing you wrote even attempted to address the point so I'm not going to respond directly and get side tracked.

You must argue that increased knowledge restricts free action. How powerful god is or Mind control has nothing to do with it. No one is arguing mind control, we are arguing for a relatively simple bit of knowledge. It's truly no different than the muffler, the consequences are not the same but free will is unaffected.

So demonstrate logically that free will is violated. I'm not really interested in god is love arguments, I'll grant those. The logic, the argument, is what I'd like you to address.

I don't think anyone will refute that gravity exists. but people still choose to jump off of bridges all the time. would believers argue that they didn't believe in gravity, otherwise, how could they have chosen to ignore its obvious consequences?

Or to keep it biblical, Satan and every demon who rejected god wouldn't have the free will to do so, or else thry have had every action they do dictated by god. In which case god is constantly and author of evil.

Aggrad08 said:

---

Or to keep it biblical, Satan and every demon who rejected god wouldn't have the free will to do so, or else thry have had every action they do dictated by god. In which case god is constantly and author of evil.

---

I've mentioned that one before but they tend to ignore it. was thinking maybe a different example might work.

mesocosm said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

mesocosm said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

---

So much wrong with that I don't know where to start. You are basically saying that because you observe things in the world that is evidence if God.

---

Philosophically he's correct and you perfectly summed up why this isn't a science question.There

---

Nothing correct about it

---

The world is certainly evidence that something has occurred that science can't explain.

AgLiving06 said:

---

mesocosm said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

mesocosm said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

---

So much wrong with that I don't know where to start. You are basically saying that because you observe things in the world that is evidence if God.

---

Philosophically he's correct and you perfectly summed up why this isn't a science question.There

---

Nothing correct about it

---

The world is certainly evidence that something has occurred that science can't explain.

---

science has a great explanation for the world.

schmendeler said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

mesocosm said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

mesocosm said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

---

So much wrong with that I don't know where to start. You are basically saying that because you observe things in the world that is evidence if God.

---

Philosophically he's correct and you perfectly summed up why this isn't a science question.There

---

Nothing correct about it

---

The world is certainly evidence that something has occurred that science can't explain.

---

science has a great explanation for the world.

---

I'd love to hear it.

It formed from detritus of dead stars and other cosmic matter. Slowly coalescing into a planetoid through gravity.

schmendeler said:

---

It formed from detritus of dead stars and other cosmic matter. Slowly coalescing into a planetoid through gravity.

---

And where did the dead stars and other cosmic matter come from?

AgLiving06 said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

It formed from detritus of dead stars and other cosmic matter. Slowly coalescing into a planetoid through gravity.

---

And where did the dead stars and other cosmic matter come from?

---

You'd like to know where things other than the world came from? Sure.

Most scientists agree that matter originated from the big bang (simplistic) .

Aggrad08 said:

---

Nothing you wrote even attempted to address the point so I'm not going to respond directly and get side tracked.

You must argue that increased knowledge restricts free action. How powerful god is or Mind control has nothing to do with it. No one is arguing mind control, we are arguing for a relatively simple bit of knowledge. It's truly no different than the muffler, the consequences are not the same but free will is unaffected.

So demonstrate logically that free will is violated. I'm not really interested in god is love arguments, I'll grant those. The logic, the argument, is what I'd like you to address.

---

Thank you for asking the question again, in a very direct way. Keep doing that when I do not answer your question.

Increased knowledge is not a problem, in fact it is a good thing. It is recommended we learn as much about God as possible.

The point I am trying to make is,God being visibly in your face and also the power God has would restrict your free will. The truth is we act differently around those who have power to impact us and also when we know we are being watching. When this happens, we limit our action. Our choices of what we do are limited. Our free will is limited.

Security cameras (if you know they are there) can restrict action. Watchful teachers & parents restrict action of the kids they watch. When I am around the police, going through customs in foreign country, TSA. I limit what I say and do. I know I am being watched and I know they have the power to make my life difficult. So I behave differently when I am in that enviroment (I am on my best behavior).

By us not seeing God, even though he is around, it allows us greater freedom to act. Even I (Booboo) who 100% absolutely knows God exists. Even I at times forget about God. I get busy in the world and then have to stop and think WWJD or God is watching and does not want you to do that. But I am ok with this, because I have asked God into my life, gave him permission to meddle. I need his help.

Schmendeler and Aggrad, not following your comments on Gravity, Satan? What point are you trying to make?

booboo91 said:

---

Schmendeler and Aggrad, not following your comments on Gravity, Satan? What point are you trying to make?

---

That absolute knowledge of something in no way restricts your ability to make a decision.

schmendeler said:

---

booboo91 said:

---

Schmendeler and Aggrad, not following your comments on Gravity, Satan? What point are you trying to make?

---

That absolute knowledge of something in no way restricts your ability to make a decision.

---

Overall I agree, more accurate information/ knowledge is better and that new information can and will influence your decision making ability.

• when you say absolute knowledge. How do you define that? There is no way we humans can understand God or for that fact any other creature- angels-Satan. At some point there is a limitation of our brains.
• I do know that knowledge or incomplete knowledge will change your decision or behavior. Example: Parents divorce and dad cheats on mom and how that information is presented. Interesting tidbit: 1988 Gary Hart had to drop out because he had an affair (knowledge that was presented), today in 2018 presidential politics we don't even care.
• How knowledge is given to us helps (all at once is not always the best method). Karate Kid- Wax on Wax off. The teacher used different methods over period of time to teach his student. Another example: you can't teach a 1st grader Calculus (not effectively), he needs to learn the basics first

If you stop off the observation deck of the empire State building there is no doubt that you will reach the ground traveling at a speed sufficient to kill you. That's what I mean by absolute knowledge.

schmendeler said:

---

If you stop off the observation deck of the empire State building there is no doubt that you will reach the ground traveling at a speed sufficient to kill you. That's what I mean by absolute knowledge.

---

Ok understood.

schmendeler said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

schmendeler said:

---

It formed from detritus of dead stars and other cosmic matter. Slowly coalescing into a planetoid through gravity.

---

And where did the dead stars and other cosmic matter come from?

---

You'd like to know where things other than the world came from? Sure.

Most scientists agree that matter originated from the big bang (simplistic) .

---

Interestingly enough, the "Big Bang" was first proposed by Georges Lemaitre, who happened to be a Catholic Priest.

God used miracles so people would someday believe that his son Jesus had authority and power to save souls. Many did miracles in Jesus's name. When Jesus became the head of the church and the church came into being, then the usefulness of miracles waned, the Bible even said there would be no need.

Does God step in and heal, and have miracles occur? I really don't know, but it is not for the same purpose as was before before the early church.

I agree with the above, God cares about our souls, our time on earth is in preparation for our eternal time with him. He has asked us to believe in his son our saviour, then we can be with him. We all have to understand that bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Faith will not protect you from bad things that may happen to you as a human. Our faith can protect us from from a bad thing happening to our soul. If you have no faith, you will never understand that.

You are trying to claim god doesn't do obvious miracles because it violates free will. But you've offered nothing in support. Knowledge doesn't violate free will it's clearly a false claim. The only effects on actions would be positive.

Aggrad08 said:

---

You are trying to claim god doesn't do obvious miracles because it violates free will. But you've offered nothing in support. Knowledge doesn't violate free will it's clearly a false claim. The only effects on actions would be positive.

---

We can agree on knowledge. That is not the point I made.

What about a person that is actively around watching you? Does your behavior change, when you know you are being watched and that person has power/ authority over you example: teacher, coach, parent, police?

The answer is Yes- you behave and act differently. Your choices are reduced. Your free will is limited.

So yes I believe when miracles are done, God leaves room for people not to believe.

booboo91 said:

---

Aggrad08 said:

---

You are trying to claim god doesn't do obvious miracles because it violates free will. But you've offered nothing in support. Knowledge doesn't violate free will it's clearly a false claim. The only effects on actions would be positive.

---

We can agree on knowledge. That is not the point I made.

What about a person that is actively around watching you? Does your behavior change, when you know you are being watched and that person has power/ authority over you example: teacher, coach, parent, police?

The answer is Yes- you behave and act differently. Your choices are reduced. Your free will is limited.

---

you behave differently because you make a choice that you want to behave differently. you either decide that there is a punishment that they may give for acting that way or you want to have them see you being civil. that doesn't diminish your free will. you made a decision that you would allow their presence to influence your behavior. being cognizant of authority doesn't diminish your free will, it informs it more clearly of consequence.

This is pretty good movie from 70s called O God with George Burns. In the movie, God shows up in court room and proves to the folks in the courtroom he is God. After the trial, when they gather together to figure out what happened. And they find there is no hard physical evidence left. The tape recorder tape is blank with God's testimony, the notes from the court scribe are also blank.

In the end, even though they witnessed something incredible, they choose not to believe. They think their mind was playing tricks on them. This is how I think God sets up his miracles, he gives us room to accept or reject them.

schmendeler said:

---

you behave differently because you make a choice that you want to behave differently. you either decide that there is a punishment that they may give for acting that way or you want to have them see you being civil. that doesn't diminish your free will. you made a decision that you would allow their presence to influence your behavior. being cognizant of authority doesn't diminish your free will, it informs it more clearly of consequence.

---

I agree with most of your comments. I did make a decision based on the knowledge that I have. Example: mom and dad are watching me, and I am not free to do what I would do if they were not around, because I do not want to get into trouble.

Most sin is done when we are alone (we do not want to be noticed)- looking at porn,saying bad things to people, cheating, stealing, murder- typically done when no one is looking (in secret). My options are limited when someone is watching me.

Now take it a step further, in this hypothetical that God is very public and in our face watching us. Now 24/7 God is watching me (right there on my shoulder like a helicopter mom), I am never alone. I am never allowed to sin. Thus God is stacking the deck in his favor. The end result is he has perfect children (Robots/prisoners) because he never gives them freedom or the ability to sin.

The celestial surveillance system you are describing is real according to you. You are never alone, not even in your head. You believe this. Does it violate your free will? Of course not. Why would it violate my free will if I believed it too.

Would it effect behaviors, yes. People would be more obedient. Why is that bad? What good is done by god being hidden? Why not give people a clear choice? As it stands it's mostly geographic luck what your faith is.

Another few general points- bit of tangent. Pretty harsh reality.

1) God is absolutely complete without us. He does not need us. The world is not centered around us (as we would like to believe).

2) The reason God made the universe is because God is Love. Love is giving oneself away (creating). Thus God created us to Love him and others and be with him in paradise.

3 ) If we do not meet his requirements of Love, we burn in Hell. The potter breaks the pottery when it does not turn out- see book of Jeremiah. Life goes on for God.

So on one hand God loves us so much and cares for us and will do anything for us, as long as we humble ourselves and repent. And on the other hand the opposite is also true the universe is huge, we are insignificant. God does not need to keep around a bad piece of pottery, or a fig tree that does not produce fruit.He will destroy it and move on.

Quote:

---

The celestial surveillance system you are describing is real according to you. You are never alone, not even in your head. You believe this. Does it violate your free will? Of course not. Why would it violate my free will if I believed it too.

---

I commented on this earlier. Even though I absolutely 100% know God exists, even I forget he is around. I still mess up and sin, but also other times I remember and will reflect on my action WWJD- God is watching.

But I am ok with this, because I have asked God into my life. I have asked for him to help me. I trust in God (faith) to make me the man he wants me to be. And because of this my actions have been reduced. I am not as free to do what I wanted to do, but it is a choice I made.

Quote:

---

Would it effect behaviors, yes. People would be more obedient. Why is that bad? What good is done by god being hidden?

---

It is bad because it affects free will! And without free will we cannot truly love. It is like putting a governor on a engine. God wants us to soar like eagles, but he will also allow us to crash and burn. He lets us go full throttle.

On God being hidden. It is pretty cool, you think God is hidden and then when you see him, you realize he is all around.

Quote:

---

Why not give people a clear choice?

---

2 things:
There is plenty of evidence of God, just not as clear as it could be. As we have been discussing, my 2 cents this is because of God's unique power- could/would affect our free will. God gives us room.

Even though God is not as visible as he could be. Have you not heard of God or Jesus- Heaven and Hell. It is not like you have not heard about it? Not like there are tons of churches, radio, tv talking about God.

Quote:

---

As it stands it's mostly geographic luck what your faith is.

---

That's true and God knows and will judge accordingly. Everyone has right and wrong written on your heart. God has given suffiencent grace for everyone to reach Heaven. As for you- Aggrad you do not live in a distant country.

Quote:

---

I commented on this earlier. Even though I absolutely 100% know God exists, even I forget he is around. I still mess up and sin, but also other times I remember and will reflect on my action WWJD- God is watching.

---

Yea and how would that be different for me if god did more than parlor room miracles? No one is talking about god being right next to you 24/7. Just providing people with enough evidence that they believed just like you. Not that god would be constantly tapping you on the shoulder. Which by the way, also wouldn't violate free will. You don't seem to know what the term means.

Quote:

---

It is bad because it affects free will! And without free will we cannot truly love.

---

NO IT DOESN"T! I'm so bored with this. Either you don't know what free will is or you are deluding yourself. You just ran from this argument a while ago when pressed on demonstrating that knowledge inhibits free will and now you are right back at it. Demonstrate this logically. Show me how knowledge restricts the will or stop making this claim. It's just dishonest to admit knowledge doesn't affect free will and then come right back and say it does. Informing someone, persuading someone, doesn't diminish their free choice.

Quote:

---

On God being hidden. It is pretty cool, you think God is hidden and then when you see him, you realize he is all around.

---

And then you realize most of humanity burns in hell because of it....

Quote:

---

2 things:

There is plenty of evidence of God, just not as clear as it could be.

---

It's not clear at all. So unclear faith is governed by geography not education.

Quote:

---

As we have been discussing, my 2 cents this is because of God's unique power- could/would affect our free will. God gives us room.

---

And as we have been discussing you've never once logically defended this point. I've asked you over and over. Don't respond again until at least trying to do this. Logically defend this point. Define free will and show it's restricted.

Quote:

---

Even though God is not as visible as he could be. Have you not heard of God or Jesus- Heaven and Hell. It is not like you have not heard about it? Not like there are tons of churches, radio, tv talking about God.

---

I've heard of many religions. And when they talk about god they have a lot of trouble defending it logically. Just like you are with this argument.

Quote:

---

That's true and God knows and will judge accordingly.

---

he wouldn't have to if miracles were real and clearly supernatural. If Christians and prayer had the power the bible says they do.

God is around believers 24/7 through the Holy Spirit.

I agree this is a consistent idea in christian theology. You are positively influenced to do God's will by the holy spirit. But none would argue that damages free will.

Agree.

Quote:

---

Yea and how would that be different for me if god did more than parlor room miracles? No one is talking about god being right next to you 24/7. Just providing people with enough evidence that they believed just like you. Not that god would be constantly tapping you on the shoulder. Which by the way, also wouldn't violate free will. You don't seem to know what the term means.

---

Sorry for the delay, busy at work.

I am trying to frame the discussion. On one extreme- too much God in our face (24/7) modifies our behavior, our choices, free will (like a hoovering parent limits the actions of their children). Note, the children can have all the knowledge they want. The key things the children recognize is they are being watched and the people watching them can inflict reward/ punishment. Once we recognize this and are reminded of this, our actions are limited.

The other side, we could have absolutely no signs/fingerprints/miracles of God at all and have no way of knowing him. As I see it, the next question is, how much does God have to show himself so he gives us freedom to choose and also make himself known? Is it once an hour, once a day, month, year, lifetime? Other question- how should God do this? Though public miracles, through the creation of the universe, through our conscience, through words and actions of others?

Here is the definition of Free Will. I don't care what we call it. My point is your freedom of choice is limited, behavior is modified. And God does not want robots, he wants us to freely choose. Free Will definition. The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence .

Aggrad,

Time to repeat what was said earlier. Bit of a tangent.

Your question is valid and hence this discussion. why does God not make it super easy? Why did Jesus not just walk around and appear to everyone after he rose from the dead? Why was it just to those with faith?

1) The primary answer, it is how God in his wisdom laid things out. Our knowledge is limited, we only live a few years, can not see the big picture. If you want to understand the logic of God- see the crucifixion! Our ways are not his ways. Note: now we can get back to our speculation on why.

2) By observation we can see the bible is roughly 3000 years old (OT) and we can see consistency in how God is protrayed through the bible to the modern day, comments of the church and saints. God is everywhere, yet he remains hidden. God made time- matter- universe and yet he is not in the universe. He speaks to us through nature, music, art, bible, prayer, through our conscience (golden rule written on our heart) , through dreams, through the love and interaction of others (love of neighbor- action of doing).

3) Question- what is enough evidence? how do you measure this? My 2 cents, you will not believe until you personally encounter God, until then you will not believe, you will chalk it up to some mistake or unknown.

Church is clear- repent, change ways, turn to the lord (faith- trust)- Ask Jesus into your heart. Note: you may say- I have already done this did not work. My comment- keep trying you are not dead yet.

Quote:

---

NO IT DOESN"T! I'm so bored with this. Either you don't know what free will is or you are deluding yourself. You just ran from this argument a while ago when pressed on demonstrating that knowledge inhibits free will and now you are right back at it. Demonstrate this logically. Show me how knowledge restricts the will or stop making this claim. It's just dishonest to admit knowledge doesn't affect free will and then come right back and say it does. Informing someone, persuading someone, doesn't diminish their free choice.

---

2 comments:

1) As said earlier, it is not the issue of knowledge (you are hung up on this) it is the constant reminder of knowing you are being watched and know the person has power over you. It absolutely affects how we behave, conduct ourselves. Do you concede this point?

2) Question- What is the best way for knowledge to be given to us? Not always good to have it all at once.
Example- Sex Education, when my children ask how they got here (I do not have sex with my wife in front of them), later as teenagers- when we hear about sex education- we are grossed out when we think of our parents having sex, and we are told it is beautiful. Finally when we are married with our spouse, we finally understand the beauty of sex.

Example: Eddie Murphy movie " Coming to America"- he does not fully disclose who he was. He slowly reveals (give knowledge) he is prince, he does this because he wants to find a wife that freely chooses him and does not choose him for his money and power.

Example: Jesus walks off when the people want to make Jesus king, he performs miracles and tells people to be quiet. He understands that will not fully understand, so he follows God plan of salvation- crucifixion.

Quote:

---

And then you realize most of humanity burns in hell because of it....

---

Would say if an all knowing God has given you sufficient Grace/ Knowledge/Data/Experiences for you to accept and know him. Then the fault lies on you, if you cannot humble yourself to know him. For 3000 years people have been saying the same thing. not a new message.

If however, you do ernestly seek him throughout your life and do not find him (through no fault of your own), think God would judge you justly.

My suggestion- lets go have a beer in the next few months, and eventually when you are ready, come on an ACTS retreat and then afterward this new experience you have (new knowledge, data point and experience) and we can discuss God. Let me show you- God= Love= Jesus.

Aggrad,

I know you will be a great active Christian one day. Because you are intelligent but primarily you care, you have passion.

Praying for your conversion, and God answers my prayers.