Been busy and out of pocket. Have a little time this morning to post these topics, let me know your thoughts.

We will often hear, even from Christians, that there are no miracles today! Baloney, miracles happen all the time, God is very active and working in 2018 as he was 3000, 2000 years ago. We just miss it because we miss the background, the timing of the event or we try and make a logical explanations such as : "it did not really happen that way", "the person was not really sick it was a misdiagnosis" or "it was just dumb luck".

To be clear, I do think with Jesus (who was God) there were incredible amount of miracles, Jesus could perform miracles when he wanted, but even then "faith- trust" was required. For the rest of us, miracles are not performed by our power but rather what God allows to happen. We are not magicians that can have nightly performances and entertain others with miracles by our own power. Rather we are like a paint brush that God can pick up and use and put back down. God will work miracles through us when he wants.

My 2 cents on miracles:

Step 1- Understand How God performs miracles. Miracles are set up for those who believe "have faith" they will believe and those who don't believe will miss the miracle. The same event can happen and people can see 2 different things. It is like a 3-D Stereograms, those pictures you have to stare at in order to see an image within the picture. It takes some effort. Two people can look at the same picture and see two different things. Those who don't want to see God (won't) and those who do will eventually see God everywhere.

Step 2: Look at the timing of the events. Time is a huge factor to consider that is often ignored.

Step 3: Not everyone believes, even among the apostles. The Bible is clear we see the same human condition of making excuses for miracles not happening as we do today. One of the reasons the bible is so awesome, our human condition has not changed.

Bible Examples of miracles:

Exodus 14 21- Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the LORD swept the sea with a strong east wind throughout the night and so turned it into dry land. When the water was thus divided,.The Egyptians followed in pursuit; all Pharaoh's horses and chariots and charioteers went after them right into the midst of the sea.and he so clogged their chariot wheels that they could hardly drive.

Comment: Models have been run that a 30-40 mph wind that blows all night could create a land bridge, the Jews walked across the heavier chariots got bogged down in the mud.

Exodus 16:13 -14 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was.

Comment: After the Jews were complaining in the desert, at just the right time God provides for them. Some have said manna is a bug excrement that forms cakes with the morning dew. For the believer- miracle for the nonbeliever- just dumb luck the Jews got lucky.

Modern Well documented Miracle- Miracle of Sun. October 1917 publicized in the papers. Nonbelievers can try and explain what happened. But they can not explain the Timing! 70K folks were out there to see a miracle and they saw it! Miracle of the Sun

If your definition of miracle is something that is both beneficial and has a low chance of occurring actually happening then yeah, I suppose miracles could be said to be everywhere. But that definition doesn't necessitate any supernatural being's intervention to explain them. It's kind of like the lottery. Given enough people playing someone will eventually win despite the incredibly low odds. But is that a miracle? I would say no.

In my mind, 'miracle' implies a supernatural element beyond the manipulation of probabilities.

Rocag said:

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If your definition of miracle is something that is both beneficial and has a low chance of occurring actually happening then yeah, I suppose miracles could be said to be everywhere. But that definition doesn't necessitate any supernatural being's intervention to explain them. It's kind of like the lottery. Given enough people playing someone will eventually win despite the incredibly low odds. But is that a miracle? I would say no.

In my mind, 'miracle' implies a supernatural element beyond the manipulation of probabilities.

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I define miracle as God's intervention. And my point is, God uses both nature and mankind to perform these miracles. Because you can try and explain what happened, does not negate it not being a miracle, need to also consider timing of event.

Yes we can agree people win the lottery, they do not win 1000 lotteries in a row. I would note there is still a "chance" probabilty with winning 1000 lotteries in a row. So even in this crazy example of winning 1000 lotteries in a row (very unlikely) you with your math could say, there is a probablity it could happen, Thus God is not needed, it is not a miracle.

This is why I think, personal experience is key, when it happens to you (when you encounter Jesus and know he is real). And you know the odds and the impact in your life. See Doubting Thomas

I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

dermdoc said:

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I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

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I agree 100%.

1) Part of the problem is we live in a universe that was designed by God, we do not have the ability to look at another universe not designed by God and compare. Note: if we could see that other universe, we would see nothing. Need God for something to be there.

2) I think a better way, is to look at what mankind designs and builds. And we see from it. Stuff- **** does not happen- without intelligence or design. so why would we expect a vastly more complex universe to just appear and pop up with all it's beauty. If what we (mankind) have control over does not pop up from nothing: campbells Soup, houses, cars, Shakespear plays- does not simply appear. we see and know it has to have intelligence and design behind it for it to appear. Stuff, **** does not just happen.

Agree. I always wonder how atheists can understand that buildings, cars, rockets, whatever are all planned and built yet can not understand that the same principles go for nature and us. And I think it the is refusal to accept the supernatural. Kind of like Thomas.

And edited to add that is why if there is a Hell then, as C S Lewis stated, the gates are locked from the inside. I firmly believe that you have to actively reject God or accept Him(with his prodding).

Because there exist natural explanations for many types of complexity that don't involve design. While it's true that some phenomena have not yet been explained, to ascribe design to them is a God of the Gaps argument, and throughout history we've seen that kind of argument destroyed over and over again by the inexorable march of science.

booboo91 said:

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Yes we can agree people win the lottery, they do not win 1000 lotteries in a row. I would note there is still a "chance" probabilty with winning 1000 lotteries in a row. So even in this crazy example of winning 1000 lotteries in a row (very unlikely) you with your math could say, there is a probablity it could happen, Thus God is not needed, it is not a miracle.

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So you would liken the probability of the example you posted on your other thread, of a woman seeing a targeted ad about a drug with negative side effects which she happened to be experiencing, to winning a 1000 lotteries in a row?

Have you ever prayed and talked to God about it? He will listen even if you do not believe. And He loves you. Lots of doubters have prayed and been surprised at what happened.

dermdoc said:

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Have you ever prayed and talked to God about it? He will listen even if you do not believe. And He loves you. Lots of doubters have prayed and been surprised at what happened.

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When I was younger I tried.

I personally find your other comment, about how atheists can look at the world and not see design, more interesting to discuss, though.

Okay. I think it all comes down to belief in the supernatural or not. It is really that simple.

And being 62 years old and in medicine, which has some pretty vocal atheists, I know I am not going to change your view. All I can do is tell you what I believe and why.

I am not convinced by the argument from design. Believers point to countless different things and ask "How could this have happened without God?", but when you focus in on each individual case you find that there is usually a very good explanation for it all that doesn't require divine intervention. The strength of the argument from design I think is the intellectual laziness that prevents people from actually seeking answers and instead depends on generalities that just assumes somewhere in that giant pile of examples is one that can't be explained even if it isn't identified.

I'd be curious to hear what event you think is the statistical equivalent of a single person winning 1000 lotteries in a row that we know happened.

Is God not capable of curing amputees or is that just one of the infirmities He chooses to never heal?

Rocag said:

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I am not convinced by the argument from design. Believers point to countless different things and ask "How could this have happened without God?", but when you focus in on each individual case you find that there is usually a very good explanation for it all that doesn't require divine intervention. The strength of the argument from design I think is the intellectual laziness that prevents people from actually seeking answers and instead depends on generalities that just assumes somewhere in that giant pile of examples is one that can't be explained even if it isn't identified.

I'd be curious to hear what event you think is the statistical equivalent of a single person winning 1000 lotteries in a row that we know happened.

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So Isaac Newton, C S Lewis, etc. were intellectually lazy? I personally think it is lazy projection that allows your train of thought.

Dermdoc: paraphrasing here, but you initially stated that it surprises you that atheists can look at nature and not see design. My understanding of that post is that you believe that any reasonable person, when observing nature, should be inevitably lead to the conclusion of design. Did my response to that post have any effect on this view? Did the idea of not seeing design in nature at least become more tenable to you? If not, why not?

I honestly do not the answer why certain very smart folks see the same thing and some believe and some do not. You can google prominent Christian scientists and thinkers and there are obviously some people on there who are every bit as intelligent as their atheist peers.

But I reject this idea that believers are dumb or intellectually lazy.

dermdoc said:

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But I reject this idea that believers are dumb or intellectually lazy.

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As do I, but I think this misconstrues what rocag was saying a bit.

That's not at all what I am saying, but I think you already know that. So why are you being so obtuse?

Theists use many arguments to support their beliefs, calling one particular argument intellectually lazy is not the equivalent of calling all believers intellectually lazy. And in the case of people who lived hundreds of years ago like Newton there is just so much about the world that we know now that wasn't known then it's hard to say what he would have made of the current state of science.

What you are left with when holes start getting punched in the argument from design is just a god of the gaps argument. And yes, I don't see how anyone finds that compelling.

Rocag said:

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That's not at all what I am saying, but I think you already know that. So why are you being so obtuse?

Theists use many arguments to support their beliefs, calling one particular argument intellectually lazy is not the equivalent of calling all believers intellectually lazy. And in the case of people who lived hundreds of years ago like Newton there is just so much about the world that we know now that wasn't known then it's hard to say what he would have made of the current state of science.

What you are left with when holes start getting punched in the argument from design is just a god of the gaps argument. And yes, I don't see how anyone finds that compelling.

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I do not think I am the only obtuse one here. And that is why this will never be resolved until Jesus comes back. Going to baseball so I am done. Have a good day!

Win At Life said:

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Is God not capable of curing amputees or is that just one of the infirmities He chooses to never heal?

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They argue poorly that this violates free will. But it's absurd to think that knowledge inhibits free will. It merely makes some choices I'll advised. Does the knowledge that a muffler is hot inhibit my free will to touch it? Of course not, am I going to? of course not.

Rocag said:

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That's not at all what I am saying, but I think you already know that. So why are you being so obtuse?

Theists use many arguments to support their beliefs, calling one particular argument intellectually lazy is not the equivalent of calling all believers intellectually lazy. And in the case of people who lived hundreds of years ago like Newton there is just so much about the world that we know now that wasn't known then it's hard to say what he would have made of the current state of science.

What you are left with when holes start getting punched in the argument from design is just a god of the gaps argument. And yes, I don't see how anyone finds that compelling.

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It's a fair statement.

Theists need to get comfortable saying "I don't know why this happened" (whether good or bad).

I think if we all kept it on this playing field, we wouldn't have atheists, but an acknowledgment that we all put our faith in something.

dermdoc said:

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Agree. I always wonder how atheists can understand that buildings, cars, rockets, whatever are all planned and built yet can not understand that the same principles go for nature and us. And I think it the is refusal to accept the supernatural. Kind of like Thomas.

And edited to add that is why if there is a Hell then, as C S Lewis stated, the gates are locked from the inside. I firmly believe that you have to actively reject God or accept Him(with his prodding).

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Do you also think market economies require central micromanagement at the level of detail that goes into designing a car?

dargscisyhp said:

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Because there exist natural explanations for many types of complexity that don't involve design. While it's true that some phenomena have not yet been explained, to ascribe design to them is a God of the Gaps argument, and throughout history we've seen that kind of argument destroyed over and over again by the inexorable march of science.

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Disagree, there is no conflict between truth and God, between scientific fact (truth) and God. See: Father George Lemaitre- started idea of Big Bang or Isacc Newton.

Science looks at how things are done and my comments pertain to the " WHY" things are done. We can agree on how the laws of science work, the question is why do we have these laws at all?

Back to the miracle of the sun or exodus crossing of the sea, science can tell me how it was done (Strong east wind) but it cannot address the Timing. At just the right time, it happened. Why?

Go read the miracle of the sun. 70K people were out there to see a miracle and they saw it. Please explain the timing! Give me the WHY?

dargscisyhp said:

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So you would liken the probability of the example you posted on your other thread, of a woman seeing a targeted ad about a drug with negative side effects which she happened to be experiencing, to winning a 1000 lotteries in a row?

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No, made comments trying to make a different point.

Miracles which I will define as God acting in our life and we know it,have different probablities. Some miracles are over the top incredible and rare and others are rather ordinary.

biobioprof said:

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dermdoc said:

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Agree. I always wonder how atheists can understand that buildings, cars, rockets, whatever are all planned and built yet can not understand that the same principles go for nature and us. And I think it the is refusal to accept the supernatural. Kind of like Thomas.

And edited to add that is why if there is a Hell then, as C S Lewis stated, the gates are locked from the inside. I firmly believe that you have to actively reject God or accept Him(with his prodding).

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Do you also think market economies require central micromanagement at the level of detail that goes into designing a car?

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All I know is that every car needs a designer. It does not create itself.

Win At Life said:

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Is God not capable of curing amputees or is that just one of the infirmities He chooses to never heal?

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Aren't you a believer?

dermdoc said:

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I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

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So much wrong with that I don't know where to start. You are basically saying that because you observe things in the world that is evidence if God.

mesocosm said:

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dermdoc said:

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I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

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So much wrong with that I don't know where to start. You are basically saying that because you observe things in the world that is evidence if God.

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Philosophically he's correct and you perfectly summed up why this isn't a science question.

The flowers, trees, and the (life in the) pond are not in harmony. They are in constant competition for resources and survival.

AgLiving06 said:

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mesocosm said:

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dermdoc said:

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I am looking out my window at a pond, blooming flowers, trees, the beauty of nature. I can not fathom the miracle of how all this happened and exists in such perfect harmony. To my simple mind, it would take even a bigger miracle for this to "just happen" and there not be a Creator.

I can definitely understand the problems with religion but can not get past the evidence, at least to me, of a Creator.

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So much wrong with that I don't know where to start. You are basically saying that because you observe things in the world that is evidence if God.

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Philosophically he's correct and you perfectly summed up why this isn't a science question.There

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Nothing correct about it

schmendeler said:

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The flowers, trees, and the (life in the) pond are not in harmony. They are in constant competition for resources and survival.

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Could not disagree more. When you step back and look everything is in harmony at the marcrolevel.

We see part of the cycle is death, everything eventually dies. Death is part of the process. We see the soil provides nutrients to the plants, the plants grow, animals eat plants, other animals eat other animals and eat the weak and sick animals (quality filter). Everything eventually dies and goes back into the soil.

Or see the water cycle- part of the cycle is hurricanes (which has great power- includes destruction) but they are also part of the process of huge water recharge for drought areas. Buddy of mine was on water board in Florida and they were wondering why all the acquifers were low? part of the answer no hurricanes or tropical storms to drop lots of rain and recharge all the water levels. Another example: Hurricanes destroy lots of palm trees, that drop coconuts that eventually reseed and grow a new tree. the process of life continues

Overall I see God has created the world as a PID feedback control system loop - like your house thermostat, if things get too hot or cold, the system eventually kicks in and gets us to where we need to be.

There are fast Feedback loops and there are slow loops, some changes are quick and others take years to respond.

Win At Life said:

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Is God not capable of curing amputees or is that just one of the infirmities He chooses to never heal?

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God does heal amputees, just not the way you want.



1) I believe God's miracles are set up for 2 outcomes: Believers see and believe and nonbelievers see and do not believe. It gets back to the questions I posed earlier in these posts. Answer to your question- it is miracle God chooses not to do.

Why does God not show up in person and directly in our face? Why did God show up as a burning bush or a cloud, in our dreams? Why did God send Moses to talk to Pharaoh? Why didn't God just do it himself? Why does he ask us to participate with him? We are God's eyes and feet on earth.

Why does Jesus not perform signs in front of his hometown or the Pharisees when they demand signs? Why did Jesus not show himself to the general public after the resurrection? Why not walk through walls and show that he is risen to everyone?

2) God sets things right in the next life (Heaven/ Hell). God's focus is on our soul. The truth is everyone will die, everyone will have pain and suffering in this life. God uses a few miracles for his purpose, healings in the bible, drives out demons, gives sight to the blind, heals the cripple, leper. These were a few people (1 out of 10K?). My point, he did not heal everyone. the time of healing and setting things right is the next life.

Aggrad08 said:

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They argue poorly that this violates free will. But it's absurd to think that knowledge inhibits free will. It merely makes some choices I'll advised. Does the knowledge that a muffler is hot inhibit my free will to touch it? Of course not, am I going to? of course not.

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Commented on this earlier in another post. I think an all knowing God, who knows your thoughts, is much much different than wisdom of a hot muffler.

• It gets back to free will. God gives us room. God if he wanted to control all our thoughts and actions, could do this. God could be a helicopter parent and not let us sin once. God in his wisdom goes the opposite direction, he does not stack the deck in his favor.

• God is love. Love is an action. You can read all the books you want on love, but you learn how to love by action, by performing acts of love- giving yourself away to others. Example: You can read all self help books about being a parent. But you learn to love, by action- by caring for sick child in the night, by changing diapers, by experiencing the joys as they grow and learn.