Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo, if they don't get that car, did they not have enough faith?

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Is this your attempt at a "Gotcha"? My answer is possibly.

Or their heart condemned them when they prayed (1st John 3:21)

Or they doubted in their heart (James 1 6-8)

Or they held something against a brother. (mark 11:25)

Or despite praying for a car, they continued unrepentantly sinning. There are not a lot of positive outcomes for the prayer of a unrighteous man. (the reverse of James 5:15)

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As I said, a hopeless religion. As long as you still don't have a car, it's because your faith is not strong enough. Eventually, you beat yourself up so much that you give up hope.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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As I've stated before, when it comes to matters of unanswered prayer we have three main responses:

• God doesn't exist
• God is capricious (he answers some, but not others)
• Our decisions, lifestyle, thoughts, or beliefs effected the outcome.

I'm no longer in the first camp. I don't believe that it is the second, so my answer is the third.

I look forward to you explaining why you believe option 2, while demonstrating that God is not capricious.

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Jesus prayed for deliverance. Was God being capricious? Or did Jesus sin in some way to effect the outcome?

Paul prayed for deliverance. God said no. Capricious? Did Paul sin?

I prayed that my mother not die from cancer. She died. Did I make a decision, lifestyle, thought, or belief that effected the outcome? Did my heart condemn me when I prayed? Did I doubt? Did I hold something against a brother? Did my sin get in the way?

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And that is why I have come to the conclusion that nobody has answers to those questions. Which is why I have become so much more inclusive, grace based, and a universalist. And no I am not an antiChrist, I just think Christ is much bigger and powerful and his Sacrifice was an atonement for all mankind.

And edited to add that it is fascinating how the concept of Hell evolved. The more I read, the more I doubt eternal damnation from a loving God.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo, if they don't get that car, did they not have enough faith?

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Is this your attempt at a "Gotcha"? My answer is possibly.

Or their heart condemned them when they prayed (1st John 3:21)

Or they doubted in their heart (James 1 6-8)

Or they held something against a brother. (mark 11:25)

Or despite praying for a car, they continued unrepentantly sinning. There are not a lot of positive outcomes for the prayer of a unrighteous man. (the reverse of James 5:15)

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As I said, a hopeless religion. As long as you still don't have a car, it's because your faith is not strong enough. Eventually, you beat yourself up so much that you give up hope.

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Please not that only of those comes down to faith, whereas the rest of them actually are related to sin. I added a verse from Isaiah after you quoted me that included another reference.

But interacting (and watching you interact) with others over the years should have led me to realize that you won't engage with my actual arguments.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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As I've stated before, when it comes to matters of unanswered prayer we have three main responses:

• God doesn't exist
• God is capricious (he answers some, but not others)
• Our decisions, lifestyle, thoughts, or beliefs effected the outcome.

I'm no longer in the first camp. I don't believe that it is the second, so my answer is the third.

I look forward to you explaining why you believe option 2, while demonstrating that God is not capricious.

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Jesus prayed for deliverance. Was God being capricious? Or did Jesus sin in some way to effect the outcome?

Paul prayed for deliverance. God said no. Capricious? Did Paul sin?

I prayed that my mother not die from cancer. She died. Did I make a decision, lifestyle, thought, or belief that effected the outcome? Did my heart condemn me when I prayed? Did I doubt? Did I hold something against a brother? Did my sin get in the way?

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Jesus wasn't looking forward to it. But he did it.

What was the thorn in Pauls side? Several traditions tell us several things.

Regarding your Mother: Maybe to all points. I don't have 24/7 access to all your private thoughts, deeds, and actions.

There is also this to consider:

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My mother prayed that she would not die from cancer. She died. Did she make a decision, lifestyle, thought, or belief that effected the outcome? Did her heart condemn me when she prayed? Did she doubt? Did she hold something against another? Did her sin get in the way?

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I'm not saying this to offend you. I'm trying to express that in my (and by extension some of the prosperity gospel) view God as a constant, unchanging being. It is us who effect the outcome here.

According to you (and most others here) God heals some, let's others die. Some people get answers to their prayers, and others are left on the wind. In other words, you believe God is capricious.

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There is a fourth option. God, properly Christ Jesus, is a person not a divine vending machine. And He loves us beyond measure or understanding. Sometimes we, being human, pray for things that should or must not be. Or we pray for stupid things that we do not need. And He, being a person and not a machine, listens to our prayers and responds thrifg His inscrutable and Divine Will.

This is not capriciousness but love.

You have kids? You love em? You ever tell them no when they ask for something? Is it because they are sinful or because they just don't know what is good for them sometimes?

Nowhere in the Bible does r say the righteous man will have a nice car if he prays and lives just right.

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If we were discussing praying to be the best drug dealer, or the richest lawyer (even as you find immoral loopholes), or a rich and unethical businessman, you would have a point.

If you pray for anything that is outside of Gods will (like the examples above) you probably aren't going to receive your prayer. However, if what you desire is within the boundaries of God's will, then assuming you qualify (see the verses I referenced above) then you should expect it.

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In other words your theology removes divine agency from the equation. It's 100% a human based faith, based on me and my actions. In this regard it's not dissimilar to pelagius' view. And, unsurprisingly, the focus is on material things, worldly and temporary trifles.

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Assuming that you believe in a loving God who wants what is best for his people (like any good parent), your belief excuses a lot lot of unanswered prayer.

Someone died from cancer? That must be what's best for him (and those praying for his recovery).
People starving in a famine? God's will (despite praying for respite) .
Women with fertility issues? Maybe its for the best since they may be terrible mothers.
Cannot afford to feed his family? God loves him.

You excuse inactivity and inaction from a Loving God. So yes, you believe God is capricious.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

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You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

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I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.

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He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".

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Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.

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With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.

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"some would argue" Who? Joel? Post their statements and we'll examine them.

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It's a rhetorical device.

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So nobody really argues that? It was just used in an attempt to fill in the holes of Joel Osteen's lies?

Do I need to come up with layman martyrs, those who lived in squalor yet faithful to God to make my point?

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How do you know they were faithful to God?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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As I've stated before, when it comes to matters of unanswered prayer we have three main responses:

• God doesn't exist
• God is capricious (he answers some, but not others)
• Our decisions, lifestyle, thoughts, or beliefs effected the outcome.

I'm no longer in the first camp. I don't believe that it is the second, so my answer is the third.

I look forward to you explaining why you believe option 2, while demonstrating that God is not capricious.

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Jesus prayed for deliverance. Was God being capricious? Or did Jesus sin in some way to effect the outcome?

Paul prayed for deliverance. God said no. Capricious? Did Paul sin?

I prayed that my mother not die from cancer. She died. Did I make a decision, lifestyle, thought, or belief that effected the outcome? Did my heart condemn me when I prayed? Did I doubt? Did I hold something against a brother? Did my sin get in the way?

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So what is faith?

Blue star

k2aggie07 said:

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There is a fourth option. God, properly Christ Jesus, is a person not a divine vending machine. And He loves us beyond measure or understanding. Sometimes we, being human, pray for things that should or must not be. Or we pray for stupid things that we do not need. And He, being a person and not a machine, listens to our prayers and responds thrifg His inscrutable and Divine Will.

This is not capriciousness but love.

You have kids? You love em? You ever tell them no when they ask for something? Is it because they are sinful or because they just don't know what is good for them sometimes?

Nowhere in the Bible does r say the righteous man will have a nice car if he prays and lives just right.

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So basically we should pray something like this "Lord, your will be done", and call it a night, or day. There is no reason to ask for anything, like all the people did of the Lord, when he walked the earth.

I'm absolutely opposed to the prosperity and the "name it and claim it" gospel, but I absolutely believe in healing, because I believe the Lord promised it to those who believe. He never denied anyone who asked him for physical healing. I don't recall anyone asking him for a Mercedes, so I can't speak to that.

Great, so you bring up "if you pray for anything that is outside of God's will". This is perfect? What is God's will for us?

God wants all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, i.e., Him. (1 Tim 2)
God wants us to be sanctified (1 Thess 4)
God wants us to give thanks in all circumstances. (1 Thess 5)
God wants us to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily to follow Him (Luke 9)
God wants us to act justly and love mercy, walk humbly with Him (Micah 6)
God wants us to have a hope and a future. What is a future to the Eternal One? (Jeremiah 29)
God wants everyone to come to repentance (1 Peter 3)
God wants to work in us what is pleasing to Him (Hebrews 13)

God's will for us, what pleases Him, is not that we are comfortable or wealthy, or even happy - but joyful, in union with Him, that we achieve what we are called.

Hebrews 10:36 says that if we persevere we may receive what was promised. Luke 21:19 says
"By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls." Romans 2:7 says "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Therefore, Romans 12 says "Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, persistent in prayer."

God's will is simple: for all of us to be saved.

We are here temporarily - we are foreigners, sojourners.

As for temporal needs, we have Christ's words as explicit guidance:

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Do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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The man who asked for and was granted wisdom said meaningless, it is all meaningless.

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The wise teacher says Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few.
....
He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity. When good things increase, those who consume them increase. So what is the advantage to their owners except to look on? The sleep of the working man is pleasant, whether he eats little or much; but the full stomach of the rich man does not allow him to sleep.

There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being hoarded by their owner to his hurt. When those riches were lost through a bad investment and he had fathered a son, then there was nothing to support him. As he had come naked from his mother's womb, so will he return as he came. He will take nothing from the fruit of his labor that he can carry in his hand.

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St John teaches us:

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Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

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Can God use evil for Good? Of course. And death, too - yes, even famine. And infertility, and fertility. It is all to His glory, and who are you equate temporal niceties or their absence with a just and loving God? Be careful - by doing so you presume to judge Him and His providence, or as bad, to judge His servants.

garc said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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There is a fourth option. God, properly Christ Jesus, is a person not a divine vending machine. And He loves us beyond measure or understanding. Sometimes we, being human, pray for things that should or must not be. Or we pray for stupid things that we do not need. And He, being a person and not a machine, listens to our prayers and responds thrifg His inscrutable and Divine Will.

This is not capriciousness but love.

You have kids? You love em? You ever tell them no when they ask for something? Is it because they are sinful or because they just don't know what is good for them sometimes?

Nowhere in the Bible does r say the righteous man will have a nice car if he prays and lives just right.

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So basically we should pray something like this "Lord, your will be done", and call it a night, or day. There is no reason to ask for anything, like all the people did of the Lord, when he walked the earth.

I'm absolutely opposed to the prosperity and the "name it and claim it" gospel, but I absolutely believe in healing, because I believe the Lord promised it to those who believe. He never denied anyone who asked him for physical healing. I don't recall anyone asking him for a Mercedes, so I can't speak to that.

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Yes. Christ gave us a very simple pattern to pray. God knows what we need before we ask Him.

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Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

'Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

'Give us this day our daily bread.

'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

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Nothing about cars or houses or pleasures there.

Don't consider that I would oppose praying for the sick. But the prayer for the sick is, if it is your will, then heal your servant. But if it is not for them to be healed, then your will be done!

"Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand."

"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' "

St Gregory of Nyssa teaches us:

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God in no way dispenses these things as good gifts to those who ask, but rather grants them as means of strengthening the faith of the more shallow. Thus engaged with the smallest requests and learning by experience that God hears our supplications, God wants us to rise to the desire for the gifts which are both higher and worthy of Him. This is also what we observe in our own children. So long as they cling to the maternal breast, they seek from their mother as much as their nature can hold. But when the child grows strong and acquires the power of speech, it disdains the breast and asks for whatever the eye of children find delightful, such as a head piece, or garment, or something like these. When it becomes of age and the mind has grown together with the body, then it leaves aside childish desires and asks the parents for whatever is proper to adult life. In the same way God uses all things to accustom a person to look to Him. Therefore He is often not deaf even to the smallest requests in order, through His kindness in small things, to call the recipient of His grace to the desire for higher gifts. So now you must comprehend the aim for which, according to divine providence, a person rises from obscurity to become both renowned and admired, or acquires anything else, such as high position, or wealth, or reputation, which are sought after in this life. God's loving care shown in these matters provides you with proof of His great power in order that, because you may have received such childish toys, you may present requests to the Father for greater and more perfect gifts. The latter are the gifts that accrue profit to the soul. Indeed, it would be utterly foolish for one to approach God and ask the Eternal for transient things, the Heavenly for earthly benefits, the Highest for trifles, the One who grants the Kingdom of Heaven for earthly good fortune deserving of contempt. To do so would mean that from the One who gives abiding blessings we would ask for the fleeting use of things foreign to our eternal destiny. Indeed the enjoyment of earthly goods is temporary and their use risky, while in the end they must necessarily be taken away.

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St John Cassian agrees -

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You see, then, what sort of measure and form for prayer have been proposed to us by the Judge who is to be prayed to by it. In it there is contained no request for riches, no allusion to honors, no demand for power and strength, no mention of bodily health or of temporal existence. For the Creator of eternal things wishes nothing transitory, nothing base, nothing temporal to be asked for from himself. And so, whoever neglects these eternal petitions and chooses to ask for something transitory and passing from him does very great injury to his grandeur and largesse, and he offends rather than propitiates his Judge with the paltriness of his prayer.

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I like the Lord's Prayer, the Jesus prayer, the prayer of the Elder Paisios.and of course "Thy will be done".

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Great, so you bring up "if you pray for anything that is outside of God's will". This is perfect? What is God's will for us?

God wants all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth, i.e., Him. (1 Tim 2)
God wants us to be sanctified (1 Thess 4)
God wants us to give thanks in all circumstances. (1 Thess 5)
God wants us to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily to follow Him (Luke 9)
God wants us to act justly and love mercy, walk humbly with Him (Micah 6)
God wants us to have a hope and a future. What is a future to the Eternal One? (Jeremiah 29)
God wants everyone to come to repentance (1 Peter 3)
God wants to work in us what is pleasing to Him (Hebrews 13)

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The problem is your stop there.

So you are sick, you are poor, your children are hungry, but it is good because you are in fellowship with God.

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God's will for us, what pleases Him, is not that we are comfortable or wealthy, or even happy - but joyful, in union with Him, that we achieve what we are called.

Hebrews 10:36 says that if we persevere we may receive what was promised. Luke 21:19 says
"By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls." Romans 2:7 says "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Therefore, Romans 12 says "Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, persistent in prayer."

God's will is simple: for all of us to be saved.

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That is your stopping point.

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We are here temporarily - we are foreigners, sojourners.

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Agreed.

But just because I am passing through does not mean I sleep in the ditch on the road en route to my destination.

Quote:

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As for temporal needs, we have Christ's words as explicit guidance:

Quote:

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Quote:
Do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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Christ explicitly said:

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25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendorwas dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe youyou of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

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He is addressing provision. Things. Objects.

I am not to worry - I am to have faith, to have the trust that the Lord will provide.

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He told the man who was consumed by his love of what he possessed to sell all he had.

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Thanks. You made my point for me.

Quote:

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The man who asked for and was granted wisdom said meaningless, it is all meaningless.

Quote:

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Quote:
The wise teacher says Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few.
....
He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves abundance with its income. This too is vanity. When good things increase, those who consume them increase. So what is the advantage to their owners except to look on? The sleep of the working man is pleasant, whether he eats little or much; but the full stomach of the rich man does not allow him to sleep.

There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being hoarded by their owner to his hurt. When those riches were lost through a bad investment and he had fathered a son, then there was nothing to support him. As he had come naked from his mother's womb, so will he return as he came. He will take nothing from the fruit of his labor that he can carry in his hand.

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No one has ever talked about loving money. The only people who talk about loving money are those who don't actually take the time to read what I am saying here.

Money is a tool. That is all. It can sponsor a church in the middle east, or it can buy cocaine and hookers. I want the church (ie the people) to prosper so that there can be more of the former.

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Can God use evil for Good? Of course. And death, too - yes, even famine. And infertility, and fertility. It is all to His glory, and who are you equate temporal niceties or their absence with a just and loving God? Be careful - by doing so you presume to judge Him and His providence, or as bad, to judge His servants.

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Because I can read.

If you want to follow theology that justifies poverty and sickness, then suit yourself. Be sure to remember that the next time you give your child a rock or a snake in lieu of food.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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As I've stated before, when it comes to matters of unanswered prayer we have three main responses:

• God doesn't exist
• God is capricious (he answers some, but not others)
• Our decisions, lifestyle, thoughts, or beliefs effected the outcome.

I'm no longer in the first camp. I don't believe that it is the second, so my answer is the third.

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#2 and 3 are the same. Can your decisions, etc. effect God's dealings with you? Always? Sometimes?

WCF 2.1 There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable,

k2aggie07 said:

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So you are sick, you are poor, your children are hungry, but it is good because you are in fellowship with God.

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YES! YES THIS IS CORRECT.

We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death works in us, but life in you.
...
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

And? "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ."

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago. Your life may be terrible:

• children are hungry
• every day is a struggle
• your wife is sick

But it is ok, because all God wants you to be is satisfied in him, even as you pray for relief. God is good, so he is going to allow you to continue to suffer in this earthly vessel. Don't you dare try to improve your situation, because that shows a lack of contentedness in your fellowship with God.

As a decent father I want my 15 month old to be full and in good health (but not overfull), but our far better father in heaven just wants us to be satisfied in him, even as we are cold and hungry.

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

chuckd said:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

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Can you explain the difference? Because the verse doesn't add "for the Gospel" or differentiate between the two.

Prosperity gospel is a creation of the church of empire. When you're on the top of the totem pole, it's easy to say that it's the result of your faithfulness, while making implied statements that Christians in places like North Korea are suffering because of their lack of faith. It's a way of justifying one's material comfort. All it requires is one ignore the life and teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

Our preaching minister referenced a quote from Aristides, I believe, this past Sunday that kind of gets to this:

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And if there is among them any that is poor and needy, and if they have no spare food, they fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy their lack of food. They observe the precepts of their Messiah with much care, living justly and soberly as the Lord their God commanded them. Every morning and every hour they give thanks and praise to God for His loving-kindnesses toward them...

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A church already full of poverty, would fast for days simply so they could have food that could be given to those in greater need. It wasn't "name it and you shall have it" and if you don't have it then you have a faith problem. I shudder to think of what they'd say of charlatans like Copeland, who boast of their million dollar private jets.

chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

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Can you explain the difference? Because the verse doesn't add "for the Gospel" or differentiate between the two.

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Reading context.

Do you get a flat tire and rejoice because you are suffering? Suppose your spouse became ill. Do you rejoice in that suffering? No? You must be a terrible Christian then.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

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Can you explain the difference? Because the verse doesn't add "for the Gospel" or differentiate between the two.

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Reading context.

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The context (Rom. 5) does not add "for the Gospel."

RetiredAg said:

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Our preaching minister referenced a quote from Aristides, I believe, this past Sunday that kind of gets to this:

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And if there is among them any that is poor and needy, and if they have no spare food, they fast two or three days in order to supply to the needy their lack of food. They observe the precepts of their Messiah with much care, living justly and soberly as the Lord their God commanded them. Every morning and every hour they give thanks and praise to God for His loving-kindnesses toward them...

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A church already full of poverty, would fast for days simply so they could have food that could be given to those in greater need. It wasn't "name it and you shall have it" and if you don't have it then you have a faith problem. I shudder to think of what they'd say of charlatans like Copeland, who boast of their million dollar private jets.

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My "prosperity" gospel church teaches that exact same thing. The only difference is that they teach that if you are prosperous you are able to give more than if you are in lack.

So it sounds as if you honestly have no idea what you're talking about, and instead are taking tweets 150 ofcharacters and assuming that it represents the whole theology.

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Prosperity gospel is a creation of the church of empire. When you're on the top of the totem pole, it's easy to say that it's the result of your faithfulness, while making implied statements that Christians in places like North Korea are suffering because of their lack of faith. It's a way of justifying one's material comfort. All it requires is one ignore the life and teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

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And you ignore the example of Joseph, Danielle, and others who despite persecutions and a culture hostile to them were able to rise up to positions of authority. But then again, they were men who were more than simply competent, but strove to be excellent workers and managers.

chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

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Can you explain the difference? Because the verse doesn't add "for the Gospel" or differentiate between the two.

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Reading context.

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The context (Rom. 5) does not add "for the Gospel."

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Edit: I believe Christ said something about being persecuted because of him. Maybe you should read what paul wrote in what of Christ said, and then continue looking back through out the bible.

I repeat myself:

Do you get a flat tire and rejoice because you are suffering? Suppose your spouse became ill. Do you rejoice in that suffering? No? You must be a terrible Christian then.

chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Quote:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

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Can you explain the difference? Because the verse doesn't add "for the Gospel" or differentiate between the two.

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Reading context.

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The context (Rom. 5) does not add "for the Gospel."

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I repeat myself:

Do you get a flat tire and rejoice because you are suffering? Suppose your spouse became ill. Do you rejoice in that suffering? No? You must be a terrible Christian then.

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I rejoice in the sense that I know "tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope".

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Do you?

So when your spouse is sick you fist pump, do a little dance, and say thank you Lord for we are suffering?

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Or as Peter says "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

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Suffering for what?

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Q. What is the difference between suffering for the Gospel and just suffering?
A. Reading context.

Q. The reading context of Rom. 5 just says suffering. Do you rejoice in just suffering?

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No, I do not rejoice in simple suffering. I will never celebrate infirmity, calamity, or poverty.

I rejoice in suffering for the Gospel. But I trust and expect that my conduct in my work and life will win people over to the gospel. I once had a gay man at a former place of employment mock my faith to my face. I just shrugged and took it. With no action of my own, a coworker actually berated him in turn for his treatment of me because not only was I one of the nicest and encouraging people in the office, I did able to do all of my work on time, well, and under budget (compared with him).

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My "prosperity" gospel church teaches that exact same thing. The only difference is that they teach that if you are prosperous you are able to give more than if you are in lack.

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The widow with two coins gave more than the rich people giving large sums of money. You seem to be under the impression that anyone here is saying it's wrong to be materially prosperous. That's not what we're saying. We're saying material wealth is not something we are to place our faith in, or that it's the result of a Christ-like life (and lack of wealth being the result of lack of faith). The rich young ruler had plenty. He kept the commandments, but when he was told to surrender it all, he refused. He placed his faith in himself to provide, not God. It rains on the just and unjust.

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So it sounds as if you honestly have no idea what you're talking about, and instead are taking tweets 150 ofcharacters and assuming that it represents the whole theology.

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No, I know what I'm talking about w/ regards to the prosperity gospel charlatans. As the woman who literally wrote the book on the prosperity gospel said:

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The prosperity gospel has taken a religion based on the contemplation of a dying man and stripped it of its call to surrender all. Perhaps worse, it has replaced Christian faith with the most painful forms of certainty. The movement has perfected a rarefied form of America's addiction to self-rule, which denies much of our humanity: our fragile bodies, our finitude, our need to stare down our deaths (at least once in a while) and be filled with dread and wonder. At some point, we must say to ourselves, I'm going to need to let go.

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And you ignore the example of Joseph, Danielle, and others who despite persecutions and a culture hostile to them were able to rise up to positions of authority. But then again, they were men who were more than simply competent, but strove to be excellent workers and managers.

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No, I'm not ignoring their example. These were men who were content in whatever they had, and their persecutions or lack of material wealth were not signs of a lack of faithfulness.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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chuckd said:

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Suffering is beautiful, pain is wonderful, lack, poverty, and sickness are good things as long as you are in fellowship with God.

This line of thinking is why I walked away from the faith years ago.

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I guess you wouldn't be one to "rejoice in your suffering" like the Apostle Paul.

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There is suffering for the Gospel, and then there is suffering. Most Christians confuse those two.

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This.

Paul suffered for preaching the Gospel. Most Christians would never be taken for Christians because of their lifestyle. They don't suffer at all, except as everyone of us as humans suffer.

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No, I do not rejoice in simple suffering. I will never celebrate infirmity, calamity, or poverty.

I rejoice in suffering for the Gospel.

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What is the difference between simple suffering and suffering for the Gospel? Is God only concerned about one, but not the other? Does he control the circumstances of one, but not the other? Is one for your good, but the other not?