You have no idea what suffering people are enduring. Some people suffer materially, other spiritually. Money is irrelevant.

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No, I do not rejoice in simple suffering. I will never celebrate infirmity, calamity, or poverty.

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It's not celebrating that you are poor, sick or have been struck by some sort of calamity. It's about rejoicing in the faithfulness of God and His presence in your life regardless of your situation. Money or material wealth have nothing to do w/ that. Those are distractions of the world. Can they be used for good? Of course. Zacchaeus wasn't blessed w/ material wealth because he was a faithful servant of God. He had material wealth because he stole from the people. He was able to use those ill-gotten gains, though, to give half his money to the poor and pay back fourfold any person he cheated. That wealth, though, was not due to his faithfulness, and the poverty of those he ended up helping wasn't due to their lack of faith.

FYI, This will be my last post before I turn my attention to work.

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My "prosperity" gospel church teaches that exact same thing. The only difference is that they teach that if you are prosperous you are able to give more than if you are in lack.

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The widow with two coins gave more than the rich people giving large sums of money. You seem to be under the impression that anyone here is saying it's wrong to be materially prosperous. That's not what we're saying. We're saying material wealth is not something we are to place our faith in, or that it's the result of a Christ-like life (and lack of wealth being the result of lack of faith). The rich young ruler had plenty. He kept the commandments, but when he was told to surrender it all, he refused. He placed his faith in himself to provide, not God.

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The widow with two coins gave all that she had. What do you suppose happened to her after that gift? Did she slowly and starve to death in sanctified suffering? Or did other people in turn assist her and provide for her? Christ after all said:

"Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

The bible and even Christ himself says that without faith you cannot receive anything. James said when you pray you should believe and not doubt, because you if you doubt you are doubleminded and should not expect to receive anything you ask.

I've never heard anyone to say to trust in wealth or politicians or things of this world. All of those things are tools. The rich young ruler trusted in his wealth, and treasured his riches on earth. Therefore, he had to let it go. The most generous people at my church are the wealthiest as well. Both in the church and to the community as well. They also put the least amount of stock in wealth as well. I've often heard the parable of the man who sought to build bigger storehouses for himself as a criticism of what you deride as the prosperity gospel. He was killed because his goal was selfish, rather than to be generous.

The wealthy people at my church (and I know plenty) are all business owners. Several of them have said in our small bible studies (that are at 6 AM on a Saturday - it takes commitment to show up to those) that the purpose of their businesses are to means to "fund" the kingdom of God. Several people have said in no uncertain terms that once they realized that their businesses took off. That money feeds the hungry, sponsors churches, and pays for missionaries to go afield.

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So it sounds as if you honestly have no idea what you're talking about, and instead are taking tweets 150 ofcharacters and assuming that it represents the whole theology.

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No, I know what I'm talking about w/ regards to the prosperity gospel charlatans. As the woman who literally wrote the book on the prosperity gospel said:

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The prosperity gospel has taken a religion based on the contemplation of a dying man and stripped it of its call to surrender all. Perhaps worse, it has replaced Christian faith with the most painful forms of certainty. The movement has perfected a rarefied form of America's addiction to self-rule, which denies much of our humanity: our fragile bodies, our finitude, our need to stare down our deaths (at least once in a while) and be filled with dread and wonder. At some point, we must say to ourselves, I'm going to need to let go.

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Who wrote this? Just out of curiosity.

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And you ignore the example of Joseph, Danielle, and others who despite persecutions and a culture hostile to them were able to rise up to positions of authority. But then again, they were men who were more than simply competent, but strove to be excellent workers and managers.

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No, I'm not ignoring their example. These were men who were content in whatever they had, and their persecutions or lack of material wealth were not signs of a lack of faithfulness.

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I've never heard it taught as simply Faithfulness = Wealth. Obedience to God is another component. Another highly overlooked factor is that I've been taught that we should also be more than simply C O M P E T E N T at what we do for a living. If you do your job with excellence (as unto the Lord) you should be advancing forward, even if you don't believe in any of the other components (faith and obedience) Particularly when we are contrasted with all the mediocre workers out there (speaking as a millennial). As some wise guy once said:

"If a man is skilled in his work, he will serve before kings, he will not serve before officials of low rank."

So no, it is not simply faith. Maybe some people are teaching that. I have not explored every nook and cranny of the "prosperity gospel" movement, so I can't speak for every church. Maybe that is what your experience has shown you. My church does not simply teach that.

My church teaches that it is faith, obedience, and being a good steward of what has been entrusted of you (if we're speaking of material prosperity). I have no doubt that there are charlatans out there who are robbing people by promising healing or spontaneous wealth generation by writing that preacher a check.

Do I think that there is a theological truth behind being generous (he who refreshes others will be himself refreshed) and receiving a benefit from it? Yes. Is that being abused? No doubt.

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Who wrote this? Just out of curiosity.

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The author of the article that is in the OP. Did you not read the article or any of the quotes in the OP? Or did you just instinctively jump in to defend this teaching without actually reading it?

FYI, the author is Kate Bowler. She had embraced this prosperity gospel false teaching at one point. She wrote the first comprehensive history of this teaching. https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-History-American-Prosperity-Gospel/dp/0190876735/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1521557334&sr=8-3&keywords=KATE+BOWLER

RetiredAg said:

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Who wrote this? Just out of curiosity.

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The author of the article that is in the OP. Did you not read the article or any of the quotes in the OP? Or did you just instinctively jump in to defend this teaching without actually reading it?

FYI, the author is Kate Bowler. She had embraced this prosperity gospel false teaching at one point. She wrote the first comprehensive history of this teaching. https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-History-American-Prosperity-Gospel/dp/0190876735/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1521557334&sr=8-3&keywords=KATE+BOWLER

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I skimmed through read the article. Frankly, I wasn't interested in this topic until Agliving06 chimed in.

Since I clearly am the only person who frequents this board who is associated with this movement, I felt the need to correct him when he misrepresented what I believe.

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I skimmed through read the article. Frankly, I wasn't interested in this topic until Agliving06 chimed in.

Since I clearly am the only person who frequents this board who is associated with this movement, I felt the need to correct him when he misrepresented what I believe.

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I don't think he really misrepresented this "movement". Also, does it give you no concern that this movement isn't rooted in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but in the "New Thought" movement (which was influenced by gnosticism) and, as Bowler says, "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility."?

RetiredAg said:

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I skimmed through read the article. Frankly, I wasn't interested in this topic until Agliving06 chimed in.

Since I clearly am the only person who frequents this board who is associated with this movement, I felt the need to correct him when he misrepresented what I believe.

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I don't think he really misrepresented this "movement". Also, does it give you no concern that this movement isn't rooted in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but in the "New Thought" movement (which was influenced by gnosticism) and, as Bowler says, "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility."?

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We spend more time in the gospels at my "heretical" church than I have in any of the countless other churches I've attended during my lifetime. Frankly, it's funny hearing the criticism coming from a guy who doesn't even really believe in the OT. What do you think Jesus was preaching from?

How mistaken are those people who seek happiness outside of themselves, in foreign lands and journeys, in riches and glory, in great possessions and pleasures, in diversions and vain things, which have a bitter end! In the same thing to construct the tower of happiness outside of ourselves as it is to build a house in a place that is consistently shaken by earthquakes. Happiness is found within ourselves, and blessed is the man who has understood this. Happiness is a pure heart, for such a heart becomes the throne of God. Thus says Christ of those who have pure hearts: "I will visit them, and will walk in them, and I will be a God to them, and they will be my people." (II Cor. 6:16) What can be lacking to them? Nothing, nothing at all! For they have the greatest good in their hearts: God Himself!
-St. Nektarios of Aegina, Path to Happiness, 1

It is only necessary to seek one thing: to be with Jesus. The man who remains with Jesus is rich, even if he is poor with regard to material things. Who ever desires the earthly more than the heavenly loses both the earthly and the heavenly. But whoever seeks the heavenly is Lord of the whole world.
-St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, Patericon

Some suffer much from poverty and sickness, but are not humbled, and so they suffer without profit. But one who is humbled will be happy in all circumstances, because the Lord is his riches and joy, and all people will wonder at the beauty of his soul."
-St. Silouan the Athonite, Writing, III.9

Seek the simplest in all things, in food, clothing, without being ashamed of poverty. For a great part of the world lives in poverty. Do not say, "I am the son of a rich man. It is shameful for me to be in poverty." Christ, your Heavenly Father, Who gave birth to you in the baptistery, is not in worldly riches. Rather he walked in poverty and had nowhere to lay His head.
-St. Gennadius of Constantinople, The Golden Chain

If you become rich, consider whether or not you could worthily bear poverty.
If you are happy, imagine how you could worthily meet unhappiness.
When people praise you, think how you might worthily bear insult. And, all your life, think how you might worthily meet death.
-St. Nicholas of Serbia, Thoughts on Good and Evil


Fortunate is the man who has come to have God as his helper and to have his hopes in Him alone. Let the Devil bear malice towards him, let all men persecute him and plot against him, let all his adversaries fight against him - he never fears anyone, because his has God as his helper. He remains always a victor, always glorified, always happy, always rich, always cheerful and joyful, even if he happens to fall into extreme poverty and into a great many adverse and grievous circumstances of this present life. For inasmuch as he hopes in Almighty God, he does not despair, he is not sorry, is not anxious, but expects help from Above. Fortunate, then, is such a man and worthy to be deemed happy, just as the Prophet-king David regards such a man as happy, saying: "Blessed is he whose helper is the God of Jacob, whose hoe is in the Lord his God." Such were all the Prophets, the Apostles, the Martyrs, the Holy Ascetics and all the Saints from the beginning of time.
-St. Nikephoros of Chios

Human affairs are fainter than a shadow; more deceitful than a dream. Youth fades more quickly than the flowers of spring; our beauty wastes with age or sickness. Riches are uncertain; glory is fickle. The pursuit of arts and sciences is bounded by the present life; the charm of eloquence, which all covet, reaches but the ear: whereas the practice of virtue is a precious possession for its owner, a delightful spectacle for all who witness it. Make this your study; so will you be worthy of the good things promised by the Lord.
-St. Basil the Great

If thou desires joy, seek not after riches, nor bodily health, nor glory, nor power, nor luxury, nor sumptuous tables, nor vestures of silk, nor costly lands, nor houses splendid and conspicuous, nor anything else of that kind; but pursue that spiritual wisdom which is according to God, and take hold of virtue; and then naught of the things which are present, or which are expected, will be able to sadden you.
-St. John Chrysostom, Homily 18

In accordance with God's most wise order in this world, one thing precedes another, and one is changed into another: dishonor and honor, poverty and wealth, health and sickness. Before bestowing wealth upon anyone, God often tries him by extreme poverty, depriving, on the other hand, the rich of everything; before honor, by dishonor; and those raised to honor, by humiliation, so that we may learn to value God's gifts, and not be proud in our prosperity, knowing that it is the gift of the Master, undeserved by us.
-St. John of Kronstadt

It is God's desire that men be unequal in all externals: riches, power, status, learning, position and so forth, but He does not recommend any sort of competitiveness in this. 'Sit not down in the highest room,' commanded the Lord Jesus (Lk. 14:8). God desires that men compete in the multiplying of the inner virtues: faith, goodness, charity, love, meekness and gentleness, humility and obedience. God gave both inward and outward gifts, although He considers outward gifts as lower and of less significance than inward ones.
-Bp. Nikolai Velimirovich

Nothing equals or excels God's mercies. Therefore, he who despairs is committing suicide. A sign of true repentance is the acknowledgment that we deserve all the afflictions, visible and invisible, that come upon us, and ever greater ones. Moses, after seeing God in the bush, returned again to Egypt, that is, to darkness and to the brick-making of Pharaoh, who was symbolical of the spiritual Pharaoh. But he went back again to the bush, and not only to the bush, but also up the mountain. Whoever has known divine vision will never despair of himself.
-St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Regard as free not those who are free by their status, but those who are free in their life and disposition. For example, one should not call truly free people who are illustrious and rich when they are wicked and intemperate, for such men are the slaves of sensual passions.
-St. Anthony the Great

The greatest gift of God, which we mostly need and which we very often obtain from God, through our prayers, is peace or rest of heart. As the Lord Himself says: 'Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' Therefore, having obtained this rest, rejoice, and consider yourself as rich and possessing all things.
-St. John of Kronstadt

The things which are of this world remain in the world, and whatever riches are gathered by us are bequeathed to our heirs; for the things which we cannot take away with us are not ours either. Virtue alone is the companion of the dead, compassion alone follows us, which as the guide to the Heavens and the first of the mansions, through the use of worthless money, acquires eternal dwellings for the dead, as the Lord's precepts bear witness when He says, 'Make unto you firends of the mammon of iniquity that may receive you into everlasting dwellings' (Lk. 16:9). Thus, it is a good and salutary precept, and fitting, which can incite the avaricious to be zealous to exchange the corruptble for the eternal, the earthly for the Divine.
-St. Ambrose of Milan

There are, however, things belonging to the Godhead which are set up for the imitation of those who wish. Now what are these? It seems to me that by poverty of spirit the Word understands voluntary humility. As an example of this the Apostle adduces the poverty of God when he says: 'Who for us became poor, being rich, that we through His poverty might be rich.' Now everything else that is being contemplated in the Divine Nature surpasses the limits of human nature; but humility is co-natural and as it were a brother to us who walk on the ground, who are composed of earth and again dissolve into earth. If, therefore, you imitate God in what is possible to your nature, you will yourself have put on the blessed form.
-St. Gregory of Nyssa

You look into a mirror so that you may know what is in your face, whether there are any blemishes in it, and having seen blemishes, you cleanse them. Let the immaculate life of Christ be a mirror to your soul, look into it often and know what is in your soul. Does it desire the same things that Christ desires? And does it do that Christ did when He lived on earth? And in it you will see what is contrary to the life of Christ, and you will cleanse it all like blemishes with repentance and contrition of heart. Christ the Lord despised honor, glory, and riches in this world, thought He was able to have everything as the Master of all. Do you not seek honor, riches, and glory in this world?
-St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

If the occasion demands it, a wise man will readily accept bodily infirmity and even offer his whole body up to death for the sake of Christ....This same man is not affected in spirit or broken with bodily pain if his health fails him. He is consoled by his struggle for perfection in the virtues
-St Ambrose of Milan

Whether God brings upon us a famine, or a war, or any calamity whatsoever, He does so out of His exceeding great care and kindness.
-St. John Chrysostom

Being weak in health as you yourself are, I cannot fail to feel much sympathy for your plight. But kind Providence is not only more wise than we are; It is also wise in a different way. It is this thought which must sustain us in all our trials, for it is consoling, as no other thought is.
-Elder Macarius of Optina

For the devil's suggestion, was, "You shall be as gods." Desiring then utterly to eradicate this idea, God made the body subject to much suffering and disease; to instruct him by its very nature that he must never again entertain such a thought. And that this is true, is really most evident from what befell him; for after such an expectation, he was condemned to this punishment. Consider also with me the wisdom of God in this matter...Do not then lay blame on God on account of the body's corruptibleness, but for this the rather do Him homage, and admire Him for His wisdom and His tender care; His wisdom, that in so corruptible a body He has been able to display such harmony; His tender care that for the benefit of the soul He has made it corruptible, that He might repress her vanity, and subdue her pride! Why then did He not make it thus from the beginning, asks some one? It was, I reply, to justify Himself before you by these very works; and as much as to say by the result itself, I called you to greater honor, but you constituted yourself unworthy of the gift, banishing yourself from Paradise! Nevertheless, I will not even now despise you, but I will correct your sin, and bring you back to heaven. Therefore for your own sake, I have permitted you so long to decay and suffer corruption, that in the fullness of time the discipline of your humility might be established; and that you might never more resume your former conceit.

For all these things then let us give thanks to God who loves man; and for His tender care over us, render Him a recompense, that will also be profitable to ourselves; and as regards the commandment which I so frequently discourse of to you, let us use our utmost diligence!
- St John Chrysostom, On the Statues, Homily 11


Some think that to enjoy good health is a source of pleasure. But it is not so. For many who have good health have a thousand times wished themselves dead, not being able to bear the insults inflicted upon them....For although we were to become kings and live royally, we should find ourselves compassed about with many troubles and sadnesses....By necessity kings have as many sadnesses as there are waves on the ocean. So, if monarchy is unable to make a life free from grief, then what else could possibly achieve this? Nothing, indeed, in this life.
-St John Chrysostom, On the Statues, Homily 18

Thus God has acted. Like a provident Father and not like a kidnapper has He first involved us in grievous things, giving us over to tribulation as it were to schoolmasters and teachers, so that being chastened and sobered by these things we may, after showing forth all patience and learning, all right discipline, inherit the Kingdom of Heaven
-St. John Chrysostom, Homily 18, On the Statues

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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RetiredAg said:

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I skimmed through read the article. Frankly, I wasn't interested in this topic until Agliving06 chimed in.

Since I clearly am the only person who frequents this board who is associated with this movement, I felt the need to correct him when he misrepresented what I believe.

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I don't think he really misrepresented this "movement". Also, does it give you no concern that this movement isn't rooted in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but in the "New Thought" movement (which was influenced by gnosticism) and, as Bowler says, "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility."?

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We spend more time in the gospels at my "heretical" church than I have in any of the countless other churches I've attended during my lifetime. Frankly, it's funny hearing the criticism coming from a guy who doesn't even really believe in the OT. What do you think Jesus was preaching from?

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You know, repeating a lie over and over again doesn't make it any less of a lie. I absolutely do believe in the OT, but you prefer to deflect w/ petty lies.

Again, does it give you any concern that your "movement" is rooted in the "New Thought" movement, which was heavily influenced by gnosticism, and as the person who wrote the first comprehensive history of this movement said, "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility"? Can you answer without deflections and lies? Is her understanding of the history of your "movement" wrong?

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I skimmed through read the article. Frankly, I wasn't interested in this topic until Agliving06 chimed in.

Since I clearly am the only person who frequents this board who is associated with this movement, I felt the need to correct him when he misrepresented what I believe.

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RetiredAg said:
I don't think he really misrepresented this "movement". Also, does it give you no concern that this movement isn't rooted in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but in the "New Thought" movement (which was influenced by gnosticism) and, as Bowler says, "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility."?

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:
We spend more time in the gospels at my "heretical" church than I have in any of the countless other churches I've attended during my lifetime. Frankly, it's funny hearing the criticism coming from a guy who doesn't even really believe in the OT. What do you think Jesus was preaching from?

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You know, repeating a lie over and over again doesn't make it any less of a lie. I absolutely do believe in the OT, but you prefer to deflect w/ petty lies.

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I apologize. Most of the time I say stuff like that about you I say it in jest (and I think you recognize that). Right now, I said that deliberately in order to prove a point. Just as you don't like seeing what you believe misrepresented, neither do I.

When I say that I believe ideas A and B, and everyone insists that I actually believe B, C, and D, I'll get testy. I've conceded that there may be people out there who teach what you all have accused me of believing. I can tell you that my church doesn't.

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Again, does it give you any concern that your "movement" is rooted in the "New Thought" movement, which was heavily influenced by gnosticism, and as the person who wrote the first comprehensive history of this movement said, "an American gospel of pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility"? Can you answer without deflections and lies? Is her understanding of the history of your "movement" wrong?

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Skimming through some resources on new thought, I can see similarities. I can also see some significant differences as well.

I personally don't find anything inherent wrong with any of these concepts: pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility. I would say that personal development is a more accurate term than upward mobility, but thats here list, not mine.

Based on the individual quotes and excerpts that K2 provided, would it be fair to K2 to label his beliefs as "an ancient Byzantine gospel of poverty and infirmity"? No, it wouldn't because quotes are merely parts of a whole. I don't get outraged or even pay attention to twitter for that very reason.

Pragmatism, individualism and upward mobility seem to be unrelated to or orthogonal to Christianity. I can't see how they enter in, but if they do, I would prefer idealism over pragmatism, unity over individuality, and in matters of faith the only upward mobility that counts is that of virtual and spiritual growth.

No one is griping about wealth. I can talk about economics and politics all day. But your bank statement doesn't have a dang thing to do with the state of your soul, high low or middle. Excepting that paraphrasing Christ, the more money you have perhaps the harder it becomes to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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I apologize. Most of the time I say stuff like that about you I say it in jest (and I think you recognize that). Right now, I said that deliberately in order to prove a point. Just as you don't like seeing what you believe misrepresented, neither do I.

When I say that I believe ideas A and B, and everyone insists that I actually believe B, C, and D, I'll get testy. I've conceded that there may be people out there who teach what you all have accused me of believing. I can tell you that my church doesn't.

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I don't believe AgLiving said anything about what you specifically believe. He made comments about prosperity gospel in general, but I don't see where he said anything that singled your particular beliefs out. You did, however, single mine out and lied in the process.

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I personally don't find anything inherent wrong with any of these concepts: pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility. I would say that personal development is a more accurate term than upward mobility, but thats here list, not mine.

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We aren't called to be pragmatic. We're called to be faithful. We aren't "individuals", but members of one body. Upward mobility, while not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, is certainly not a tenet of the Christian faith. That's a "world" thing.

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I apologize. Most of the time I say stuff like that about you I say it in jest (and I think you recognize that). Right now, I said that deliberately in order to prove a point. Just as you don't like seeing what you believe misrepresented, neither do I.

When I say that I believe ideas A and B, and everyone insists that I actually believe B, C, and D, I'll get testy. I've conceded that there may be people out there who teach what you all have accused me of believing. I can tell you that my church doesn't.

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I don't believe AgLiving said anything about what you specifically believe. He made comments about prosperity gospel in general, but I don't see where he said anything that singled your particular beliefs out. You did, however, single mine out and lied in the process.

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Yes I know. That was done deliberately to provoke a reaction from you to prove a point. I expected you to call me out. I have a decent idea of what you believe.

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I personally don't find anything inherent wrong with any of these concepts: pragmatism, individualism, and upward mobility. I would say that personal development is a more accurate term than upward mobility, but thats here list, not mine.

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We aren't called to be pragmatic. We're called to be faithful. We aren't "individuals", but members of one body. Upward mobility, while not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, is certainly not a tenet of the Christian faith. That's a "world" thing.

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We're not called to be pragmatic? Then why is a whole book of the bible dedicated to proverbs which is essentially dealing in matters of pragmatism?

We are individuals. Your salvation is a matter between you and the Lord, same as a mine. We are members of a body in that we have a role to play within that body. Just as some are called to be evangelists, some missionaries, and some teachers, others are called to support those who are. I believe that we can do a better job supporting them when the body is prosperous and in health, rather than sick and poor. Or at least, I would not want to be join a movement of people who are sick and poor.

With that, I'm out of here. As far as I'm concerned this thread has about ran its course.

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We are individuals. Your salvation is a matter between you and the Lord, same as a mine. We are members of a body in that we have a role to play within that body. Just as some are called to be evangelists, some missionaries, and some teachers, others are called to support those who are. I believe that we can do a better job supporting them when the body is prosperous and in health, rather than sick and poor. Or at least, I would not want to be join a movement of people who are sick and poor.

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You're in the wrong movement then. Most people in prosperity gospel churches are sick and poor. Especially Africa:

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Yes I know. That was done deliberately to provoke a reaction from you to prove a point. I expected you to call me out. I have a decent idea of what you believe.

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So you deliberately lied about me in order to provoke me? And you, as a brother in Christ, are okay with that? This seems to be another example of how this "ends justify the means" mindset has infected the church. You want to prove a point (ends), so you use sinful means to do so. The means must look like Christ, regardless of the ends.

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Or at least, I would not want to be join a movement of people who are sick and poor.

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Uh, this sounds a lot like the church we see in the NT and early church.

Proverbs isn't about pragmatism or utility. Proverbs 1 tells you what they're for - wisdom, righteousness, justice, equity, prudence, knowledge, discretion, learning. Proverbs 2 says we should seek wisdom as silver, for knowledge of God. Proverbs 3 touches on the fact that this way of upright living also works well for life - length of days, years of life, peace, favor, good repute, plenty and overflowing vats. But even then it says that the profit of wisdom is better than silver or gold, better than jewels. Very few of the proverbs deal with money -- Proverbs 16:16 says "How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver."

In short, the Proverbs are for virtuous living, not efficacious or pragmatic living. Proverbs 11:4 even says "Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness delivers from death." Proverbs 15:9b tell us the Lord "loves one who pursues righteousness."

Yes, being an honorable, hardworking, righteous person usually profits a person better than the alternative. But that's not why we do it. We do it because it is right, because "righteousness delivers from death". If we do it because it works, there's no virtue at all, we are being selfish, we get our reward then in full. Jesus didn't say, if you want success, keep my commandments. He said "if you love Me".

You don't want to join a movement of the sick and poor? Who do you think Christ hung out with all the time???

k2aggie07 said:

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Proverbs isn't about pragmatism or utility. Proverbs 1 tells you what they're for - wisdom, righteousness, justice, equity, prudence, knowledge, discretion, learning. Proverbs 2 says we should seek wisdom as silver, for knowledge of God. Proverbs 3 touches on the fact that this way of upright living also works well for life - length of days, years of life, peace, favor, good repute, plenty and overflowing vats. But even then it says that the profit of wisdom is better than silver or gold, better than jewels. Very few of the proverbs deal with money -- Proverbs 16:16 says "How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver."

In short, the Proverbs are for virtuous living, not efficacious or pragmatic living. Proverbs 11:4 even says "Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness delivers from death." Proverbs 15:9b tell us the Lord "loves one who pursues righteousness."

Yes, being an honorable, hardworking, righteous person usually profits a person better than the alternative. But that's not why we do it. We do it because it is right, because "righteousness delivers from death". If we do it because it works, there's no virtue at all, we are being selfish, we get our reward then in full. Jesus didn't say, if you want success, keep my commandments. He said "if you love Me".

You don't want to join a movement of the sick and poor? Who do you think Christ hung out with all the time???

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k2aggie07 said:

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Proverbs isn't about pragmatism or utility. Proverbs 1 tells you what they're for - wisdom, righteousness, justice, equity, prudence, knowledge, discretion, learning. Proverbs 2 says we should seek wisdom as silver, for knowledge of God. Proverbs 3 touches on the fact that this way of upright living also works well for life - length of days, years of life, peace, favor, good repute, plenty and overflowing vats. But even then it says that the profit of wisdom is better than silver or gold, better than jewels. Very few of the proverbs deal with money -- Proverbs 16:16 says "How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver."

In short, the Proverbs are for virtuous living, not efficacious or pragmatic living. Proverbs 11:4 even says "Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness delivers from death." Proverbs 15:9b tell us the Lord "loves one who pursues righteousness."

Yes, being an honorable, hardworking, righteous person usually profits a person better than the alternative. But that's not why we do it. We do it because it is right, because "righteousness delivers from death". If we do it because it works, there's no virtue at all, we are being selfish, we get our reward then in full. Jesus didn't say, if you want success, keep my commandments. He said "if you love Me".

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If it works and it is righteous, why not both?

You would seem to have no issue with someone saying "Read proverbs and you can learn more about how to live righteously". However if I say "applying what is taught in proverbs to your life will lead you to a peaceful and prosperous life" you would get bent out of shape. Why is that?

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You don't want to join a movement of the sick and poor? Who do you think Christ hung out with all the time???

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What did Jesus do for those sick people? He patted them on the head and said don't worry about it and then went on his way, right?

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You would seem to have no issue with someone saying "Read proverbs and you can learn more about how to live righteously". However if I say "applying what is taught in proverbs to your life will lead you to a peaceful and prosperous life" you would get bent out of shape. Why is that?

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Because living righteously doesn't necessarily lead to a peaceful and materially prosperous life. It very well may lead to a life of poverty, oppression and/or death. We see that w/ the Apostles. We see that in the early church. There's not a correlation between living righteously and being materially prosperous.

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What did Jesus do for those sick people? He patted them on the head and said don't worry about it and then went on his way, right?

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He healed many, but He didn't make them materially prosperous. What He was truly offering was "life-giving water". Just as we see w/ Paul, sometimes that "thorn" isn't taken away. It isn't an indictment of their faith.

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If it works and it is righteous, why not both?

You would seem to have no issue with someone saying "Read proverbs and you can learn more about how to live righteously". However if I say "applying what is taught in proverbs to your life will lead you to a peaceful and prosperous life" you would get bent out of shape. Why is that?

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Because you make the mistake of saying prosperous = wealthy. That's not what the proverbs say. If we say prosperous is rich in wisdom, blessings of God, righteousness, yeah, sure.

And I'm not bent out of shape about anything. I'm trying to show you that there is a serious problem with your expectations from God. As long as we say if A then B from God, we're not coming to Him in humility but with expectations. Our only job is to seek righteousness. If He blesses us with wealth, so be it. If He calls us to poverty, so be it. Our joy is not contingent upon this.

We are guaranteed that His grace is sufficient for us, in all circumstances. We are told He will give us what we need. He will give unflinchingly of wisdom and righteousness to those who hunger and thirst for it. But that doesn't mean we'll get cars and money and fortune. That's just not part of the scripture, it's not part of tradition.

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What did Jesus do for those sick people? He patted them on the head and said don't worry about it and then went on his way, right?

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Again, I don't get it. The Church prays for the sick, the sorrowing, the captives, all the time. We have prayers for the sick, the priest will come visit you when you are sick. Here in a few days we'll have a service specifically to anoint us for sickness (Holy Unction).

But guess what? People are still going to get sick. Christians. Righteous people, even. Getting a cold or pneumonia or a fever or whatever isn't an indictment of your worth in the eyes of God. And if we do we should rejoice and give thanks to God, because we deserve nothing good.

And that's the big problem with your theology - it sets up an expectation of recompense for righteousness. Properly, we deserve nothing but death. We can't stand before God and say "I am righteous; I deserve blessings". We can't say we deserve anything but death, because we are sinners. This is the joy of the faith! St Isaac the Syrian even goes as far as to say "Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you!" If we received justice, we would receive death, as he continues:

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How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? "Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?" How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God's justice?for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.

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Be very careful here. Would you grumble over your denarius? Would you risk being the good son? There is a caution here! Expectation is from pride.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Be sure to remember that the next time you give your child a rock or a snake in lieu of food.

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Our father gave His only son for crucifixion and you consider that a rock? He gave us Christ, who took on the mantle of our sins and destroyed death. That's hardly a snake.