Death, the Prosperity Gospel and Me

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PacifistAg
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AG
Death, the Prosperity Gospel and Me

Not sure if this has been posted before, but pretty good read.
Quote:

I am a historian of the American prosperity gospel. Put simply, the prosperity gospel is the belief that God grants health and wealth to those with the right kind of faith. I spent 10 years interviewing televangelists with spiritual formulas for how to earn God's miracle money. I held hands with people in wheelchairs being prayed for by celebrities known for their miracle touch. I sat in people's living rooms and heard about how they never would have dreamed of owning this home without the encouragement they heard on Sundays.

I went on pilgrimage with the faith healer Benny Hinn and 900 tourists to retrace Jesus' steps in the Holy Land and see what people would risk for the chance at their own miracle. I ruined family vacations by insisting on being dropped off at the showiest megachurch in town. If there was a river running through the sanctuary, an eagle flying freely in the auditorium or an enormous, spinning statue of a golden globe, I was there.

Quote:

I learned that the prosperity gospel sprang, in part, from the American metaphysical tradition of New Thought, a late-19th-century ripening of ideas about the power of the mind: Positive thoughts yielded positive circumstances, and negative thoughts negative circumstances.

Variations of this belief became foundational to the development of self-help psychology. Today, it is the standard "Aha!" moment of Oprah's Lifeclass, the reason your uncle has a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and the takeaway for the more than 19 million who bought "The Secret." (Save your money: the secret is to think positively.) These ideas about mind power became a popular answer to a difficult question: Why are some people healed and some not?

The modern prosperity gospel can be directly traced to the turn-of-the-century theology of a pastor named E. W. Kenyon, whose evangelical spin on New Thought taught Christians to believe that their minds were powerful incubators of good or ill. Christians, Kenyon advised, must avoid words and ideas that create sickness and poverty; instead, they should repeat: "God is in me. God's ability is mine. God's strength is mine. God's health is mine. His success is mine. I am a winner. I am a conqueror." Or, as prosperity believers summarized it for me, "I am blessed."

Quote:

One of the prosperity gospel's greatest triumphs is its popularization of the term "blessed." Though it predated the prosperity gospel, particularly in the black church where "blessed" signified affirmation of God's goodness, it was prosperity preachers who blanketed the airwaves with it. "Blessed" is the shorthand for the prosperity message. We see it everywhere, from a TV show called "The Blessed Life" to the self-justification of Joel Osteen, the pastor of America's largest church, who told Oprah in his Texas mansion that "Jesus died that we might live an abundant life."

Over the last 10 years, "being blessed" has become a full-fledged American phenomenon.

Quote:

Blessed is a loaded term because it blurs the distinction between two very different categories: gift and reward. It can be a term of pure gratitude. "Thank you, God. I could not have secured this for myself." But it can also imply that it was deserved. "Thank you, me. For being the kind of person who gets it right." It is a perfect word for an American society that says it believes the American dream is based on hard work, not luck.

If Oprah could eliminate a single word, it would be "luck." "Nothing about my life is lucky," she argued on her cable show. "Nothing. A lot of grace. A lot of blessings. A lot of divine order. But I don't believe in luck. For me luck is preparation meeting the moment of opportunity." This is America, where there are no setbacks, just setups. Tragedies are simply tests of character.

Quote:

It is the reason a neighbor knocked on our door to tell my husband that everything happens for a reason.

"I'd love to hear it," my husband said.

"Pardon?" she said, startled.

"I'd love to hear the reason my wife is dying," he said, in that sweet and sour way he has.

My neighbor wasn't trying to sell him a spiritual guarantee. But there was a reason she wanted to fill that silence around why some people die young and others grow old and fussy about their lawns. She wanted some kind of order behind this chaos. Because the opposite of #blessed is leaving a husband and a toddler behind, and people can't quite let themselves say it: "Wow. That's awful." There has to be a reason, because without one we are left as helpless and possibly as unlucky as everyone else.

Quote:

The most I can say about why I have cancer, medically speaking, is that bodies are delicate and prone to error. As a Christian, I can say that the Kingdom of God is not yet fully here, and so we get sick and die.

Quote:

The prosperity gospel popularized a Christian explanation for why some people make it and some do not. They revolutionized prayer as an instrument for getting God always to say "yes." It offers people a guarantee: Follow these rules, and God will reward you, heal you, restore you. It's also distressingly similar to the popular cartoon emojis for the iPhone, the ones that show you images of yourself in various poses. One of the standard cartoons shows me holding a #blessed sign. My world is conspiring to make me believe that I am special, that I am the exception whose character will save me from the grisly predictions and the CT scans in my inbox. I am blessed.

Quote:

The prosperity gospel has taken a religion based on the contemplation of a dying man and stripped it of its call to surrender all. Perhaps worse, it has replaced Christian faith with the most painful forms of certainty. The movement has perfected a rarefied form of America's addiction to self-rule, which denies much of our humanity: our fragile bodies, our finitude, our need to stare down our deaths (at least once in a while) and be filled with dread and wonder. At some point, we must say to ourselves, I'm going to need to let go.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
dermdoc
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AG
Good article(in its entirety)and at the end she actually somewhat praises the prosperity gospel believers,
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
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Prosperity gospel does not give hope to a dying man. Nor does "surrendering all" or "letting go" whatever that means. While the author is doing research on the history of the prosperity gospel, they should also research the history of the Keswick movement.
dermdoc
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AG
Agree. One cries for grace and mercy at that point,
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
AgLiving06
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I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?
Frok
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AG
Very interesting read. Being an American I've had some prosperity gospel beliefs creep into my own life. Sometimes it disguises itself as the "American Dream".

Truth is we've all been given a death sentence.

AgLiving06
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
dds08
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AG
I think John Bunyan, in his book "Pilgrim's Progress" might have referred to the prosperity gospel.

If I had to go with what I know about Christ's model for all His followers, it seems one is to NOT be so concerned about what they will attain in this life, but being obedient, to the Lord, and storing their treasures in heaven, via being a blessing to others (being a servant leader, stewardship).

Quote:

Matthew 16:24-27 New International Version (NIV)

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.


The prosperity gospel kinda reminds me of the rich young ruler. Jesus hit the nail on the head when He told the guy, "Go sell all your possessions and follow me."

He had amassed so much wealth in this world, that he couldn't do what the Lord told him. Material wealth kept him from a relationship with the Lord.

IMO, sermons should encourage one to build up the Lord's kingdom as opposed their own. Everything should center around the Lord.

Disclaimer: there was a time I went with friends to hear Joel Osteen and I didn't see anything wrong with the sermon. The sermons would convict my heart in certain areas and exposed growth areas. The benediction at the end seemed on point (the invitation to accept Christ was there)

Sometimes I wonder if people get jealous of churches who draw big crowds.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".

Martin Q. Blank
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.





Martin Q. Blank
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.
"some would argue" Who? Joel? Post their statements and we'll examine them.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.
"some would argue" Who? Joel? Post their statements and we'll examine them.
It's a rhetorical device.



Martin Q. Blank
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.
"some would argue" Who? Joel? Post their statements and we'll examine them.
It's a rhetorical device.
So nobody really argues that? It was just used in an attempt to fill in the holes of Joel Osteen's lies?

Do I need to come up with layman martyrs, those who lived in squalor yet faithful to God to make my point?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.
"some would argue" Who? Joel? Post their statements and we'll examine them.
It's a rhetorical device.
So nobody really argues that? It was just used in an attempt to fill in the holes of Joel Osteen's lies?

Do I need to come up with layman martyrs, those who lived in squalor yet faithful to God to make my point?
Why did they live in squalor? Why were they martyrs? So you believe that our just and righteous God wants people to live broken and terrible lives but its all good because once you die things will be great?

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

It's funny how we have reversed this. We delight in giving our children good things, yet we expect nothing from God.
Martin Q. Blank
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

AgLiving06 said:

I've been reading through Numbers and I can't help but draw parallels between the Prosperity Gospel and the Jews who wandered the desert.

Both groups felt that God should be judged/valued based on what He did for them. When adversity struck, they didn't know what to do and generally got angry with God. This was never the appropriate action and God's response was pretty brutal.

I hope that's where the parallel ends though since that generation never saw the Promised Land due to their behavior.

You know how I know you've never listened to the "prosperity" gospel?

I've listened to Joel speak.

All I hear from him is how God is going to give you a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity.
He does say that, but that is normally preceded by a statement beginning with if and ending with then.

For example:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity".


Conclusion:
Paul, Stephen, Peter, John, Jesus were not willing and obedient to God.
With one notable exception to that list, Some would argue that they were called to be something else than the rank and file believer. Not everyone is called to be a missionary. Not everyone is called to a pastor. The life of an evangelist will be different than the life of a pastor and the life of a minister.
"some would argue" Who? Joel? Post their statements and we'll examine them.
It's a rhetorical device.
So nobody really argues that? It was just used in an attempt to fill in the holes of Joel Osteen's lies?

Do I need to come up with layman martyrs, those who lived in squalor yet faithful to God to make my point?
Why did they live in squalor? Why were they martyrs? So you believe that our just and righteous God wants people to live broken and terrible lives but its all good because once you die things will be great?

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

It's funny how we have reversed this. We delight in giving our children good things, yet we expect nothing from God.

They lived in squalor because of famine, depression, foreign occupation, slavery, etc.
They were martyrs because they were judged to be heretics, disturbing the peace, etc.

God delights in giving good gifts to his children. He has blessed me and my family tremendously. But "If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity" is false. It gives the believer false hope. If after years of being willing and obedient he is not married with wealth and prosperity, what is he to conclude? Either he is not faithful enough or God doesn't exist. Wasn't this the conclusion Job's friends came to?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Quote:

They lived in squalor because of famine, depression, foreign occupation, slavery, etc.
They were martyrs because they were judged to be heretics, disturbing the peace, etc.
The bible is full of examples of people who have achieved great prosperity during times of war, famine, occupation and even exile.

Quote:


God delights in giving good gifts to his children. He has blessed me and my family tremendously. But "If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity" is false. It gives the believer false hope. If after years of being willing and obedient he is not married with wealth and prosperity, what is he to conclude?

We have a part to play in our lives. What God wants to do in your life, he is going to do through your life. God can and does provide us all the opportunity - but we often screw it up.

Quote:

Either he is not faithful enough or God doesn't exist. Wasn't this the conclusion Job's friends came to?
The challenge of bringing up Job is that you forget that he not only has everything restored to him, but double.

Martin Q. Blank
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:


Quote:

They lived in squalor because of famine, depression, foreign occupation, slavery, etc.
They were martyrs because they were judged to be heretics, disturbing the peace, etc.
The bible is full of examples of people who have achieved great prosperity during times of war, famine, occupation and even exile.

Quote:


God delights in giving good gifts to his children. He has blessed me and my family tremendously. But "If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity" is false. It gives the believer false hope. If after years of being willing and obedient he is not married with wealth and prosperity, what is he to conclude?

We have a part to play in our lives. What God wants to do in your life, he is going to do through your life. God can and does provide us all the opportunity - but we often screw it up.

Quote:

Either he is not faithful enough or God doesn't exist. Wasn't this the conclusion Job's friends came to?
The challenge of bringing up Job is that you forget that he not only has everything restored to him, but double.


Can you name any examples of people who did not achieve great prosperity during times of war, famine, occupation and even exile? Were they not obedient enough? What if God did not restore Job's wealth? Would his friends have been right?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:


Quote:

They lived in squalor because of famine, depression, foreign occupation, slavery, etc.
They were martyrs because they were judged to be heretics, disturbing the peace, etc.
The bible is full of examples of people who have achieved great prosperity during times of war, famine, occupation and even exile.

Quote:


God delights in giving good gifts to his children. He has blessed me and my family tremendously. But "If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity" is false. It gives the believer false hope. If after years of being willing and obedient he is not married with wealth and prosperity, what is he to conclude?

We have a part to play in our lives. What God wants to do in your life, he is going to do through your life. God can and does provide us all the opportunity - but we often screw it up.

Quote:

Either he is not faithful enough or God doesn't exist. Wasn't this the conclusion Job's friends came to?
The challenge of bringing up Job is that you forget that he not only has everything restored to him, but double.


Can you name any examples of people who did not achieve great prosperity during times of war, famine, occupation and even exile? Were they not obedient enough? What if God did not restore Job's wealth? Would his friends have been right?
Why don't we start by looking at people who did:
  • Joseph
  • David
  • Daniel
  • etc.

What made them special? How did they exist in terrible circumstances and somehow managed to thrive and overcome those circumstances? Once you have done that, we can then contrast those success stories with those who did not.

Stepping back, to ultimate answer why we see different or unequal results in peoples lives, there are three main answers we can turn to. It is either because:
  • God doesn't exist
  • God is capricious
  • It comes down to actions or beliefs of the people in question.

I believe it is option 3. I've read enough of the bible to recognize that there are countless "If.... then" statements throughout the new and old testaments.

Look, if you want to believe that God does not care about our circumstances in this life and arbitrarily blesses some while allowing others to wallow in misery for no attributable reasons, whatever dude. While I wonder how you can call such a capricious deity "good", thats for you to work out.


Martin Q. Blank
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I don't think it's arbitrary. The statement only sets the believer up for answering back to God if he doesn't bless him. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:


I don't think it's arbitrary. The statement only sets the believer up for answering back to God if he doesn't bless him. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?
Then what is it?

Quote:

I don't think it's arbitrary. The statement only sets the believer up for answering back to God if he doesn't bless him. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?
The trouble with your line of thinking is that your assumption is that people only believe in the prosperity gospel because they are trying to "get" something from God.

Are you married?


Martin Q. Blank
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I think in some circumstances it is a reward for obedience, but that doesn't mean obedience means a believer may expect a reward or demand it from God. Sometimes God takes away in order to test our faith. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?

Yes, I am married and have children.
dermdoc
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

I think in some circumstances it is a reward for obedience, but that doesn't mean obedience means a believer may expect a reward or demand it from God. Sometimes God takes away in order to test our faith. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?

Yes, I am married and have children.
Has nothing to do with obedience or works. It is about trusting God and asking in faith.
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Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

I think in some circumstances it is a reward for obedience, but that doesn't mean obedience means a believer may expect a reward or demand it from God. Sometimes God takes away in order to test our faith. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?

Yes, I am married and have children.
Has nothing to do with obedi nice or works. It is about trusting God and asking in faith.
"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity" sounds like it has something to do with obedience.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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I'm going to reply to both of your statements in one post:


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Martin Q. Blank said:
I think in some circumstances it is a reward for obedience, but that doesn't mean obedience means a believer may expect a reward or demand it from God. Sometimes God takes away in order to test our faith. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?

Yes, I am married and have children.
dermdoc said:
Has nothing to do with obedi nice or works. It is about trusting God and asking in faith.
"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity" sounds like it has something to do with obedience.

I included "willing and obedient" because what the prosperity gospels teaches is that your behavior, what you say, do, and believe has an effect on your outcomes whereas most critiques of the prosperity gospel tend to focus on the second half of the statement:

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity"

Whereas in my experience (not that I've listened to everyone or am even on expert on what Osteen preaches) the "prosperity" gospel tends to emphasize the first half, beginning with "If"

"If you are willing and obedient to God, then God will give a happy life and wife with wealth and prosperity"
Quote:

I think in some circumstances it is a reward for obedience, but that doesn't mean obedience means a believer may expect a reward or demand it from God. Sometimes God takes away in order to test our faith. How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?

Yes, I am married and have children.
Since you have at least two children, I can safely presume that you have sex with your wife (Assuming you're male, but I think that is a safe guess).

Do you do things that your wife likes and enjoys because you love her, or because you want her to have sex with you? Is sex the reason for marriage or is it a benefit of marriage?


Martin Q. Blank
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Because I love her.

There is no "emphasis" in an if/then statement. It's a complete thought.

How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Because I love her.
So sex is a benefit of the relationship. A part of the relationship, but not the reason for the relationship.


Quote:

There is no "emphasis" in an if/then statement. It's a complete thought.

Agreed. But most criticisms of Osteen focus on the second half, the portion that follows "then", rather than including the full thought.


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How is your obedience to God? Has God blessed you proportionally for it?
Now that you ask, I struggle and have been working to overcome several sinful habits that have led me to condemn myself and have held myself back.

"Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him."

One of the things that I appreciate about this "gospel" is that it actually emphasizes self-improvement and righteous living, rather than come as you are and remain as you were.

Zobel
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AG
STC your error is in ascribing good to things other than God. God rewards us with Good, with blessings. You seem to think that He would give us gifts that must necessarily be taken away. You can't take it with you. Instead He gives us Good from Himself, because only He is Good. Our relationship with God is about one gift and one gift only - the receipt of God Himself.

Asking for money is like dumping out the wine and keeping the cork. It's keeping the field you bought with all your money and ignoring the treasure buried there.

If you heart does not condemn you don't you think desiring lower things, material things, instead of what God wants to give you counts?

Quote:

One of the things that I appreciate about this "gospel" is that it actually emphasizes self-improvement and righteous living, rather than come as you are and remain as you were.

Straw man. I know of no faith that does not call for repentance.
Zobel
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AG
They will explain what I mean better than I can:

This is true perfection: not to avoid a wicked life because, like slaves, we servilely fear punishment, nor to do good because we hope for rewards, as if cashing in on the virtuous life by some businesslike and contractual arrangement. On the contrary, disregarding all those things for which we hope and which have been reserved by promise, we regard falling from God's friendship as the only thing dreadful, and we consider becoming God's friend the only thing worthy of honor and desire. This, as I have said, is the perfection of life.

-St Gregory of Nyssa, The Life of Moses

//

[Finally Man was to unite] created nature with the uncreated through love (oh the wonder of God's love for mankind!), to show them to be one and the same by the state of grace, the whole man wholly pervading the whole God, and becoming everything that God is, without, however, identity in essence, and receiving the whole of God instead of himself, and obtaining as a kind of prize for his ascent to God the absolutely unique God...

But moving naturally as he was created to do, around the unmoved, as his own beginning (by which I mean God) was not what man did. Instead, contrary to nature, he willingly and foolishly moved around the things below him, which God had commanded him to have dominion over.

- St Maximos the Confessor, Ambiguum 41.
dermdoc
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AG
Blue star my friend, So few Christians really love God it seems. They seem to suffer from either servile fear or want personal reward in this brief life. And neither brings peace and joy imho.
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PacifistAg
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AG
Speaking of prosperity gospel...ugh:

“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Martin Q. Blank
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Solo, if they don't get that car, did they not have enough faith?
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Solo, if they don't get that car, did they not have enough faith?
Is this your attempt at a "Gotcha"? My answer is possibly.

Or their heart condemned them when they prayed (1st John 3:21)

Or they doubted in their heart (James 1 6-8)

Or they held something against a brother. (Mark 11:25)

Your own sin is getting in the way. (Isaiah 1:15

Or despite praying for a car, they continued unrepentantly sinning. There are not a lot of positive outcomes for the prayer of a unrighteous man. (the reverse of James 5:15)

As I've stated before, when it comes to matters of unanswered prayer we have three main responses:
  • God doesn't exist
  • God is capricious (he answers some, but not others)
  • Our decisions, lifestyle, thoughts, or beliefs effected the outcome.

I'm no longer in the first camp. I don't believe that it is the second, so my answer is the third.

I look forward to you explaining why you believe option 2, while demonstrating that God is not capricious.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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RetiredAg said:

Speaking of prosperity gospel...ugh:



Is this acceptable to you?

Quote:

Do you need to be healed? Today, make the decision to receive that healing by faith. Say, "Thank You, Lord for I am healed. Lord, I see myself healed! Thank You, God. I believe I've received it and I have it. I take it by faith today."

Why or why not?
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