We are incapable of doing what God intended which is why we need Christ.

None of this is within the parameters of 35AD.

Quote:

---

When He said, "A new covenant, " He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 8:13

---

You know the word covenant was added by the translators right?

It should read: In saying "new," He has treated the first as old; but what is being made old and aging is close to vanishing.

At the beginning of this section v7-8 says:

For if that first one had been faultless, there would not have been discourse seeking a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

Is God's covenant at fault? If yes, then God purposely gave a faulty covenant. Then is an issue.

In the beginning of the chapter the author says this is his main point:

8:1 - Now here is the main point being said. We do have such a Kohen Gadol, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.

His main point is regarding the Kohen Gadol, who the author just finished talking about a different kind of high priest rising.

Who was at fault? The Levitical Priesthood. Throughout the prophets and even Yeshua spoke about how the priesthood failed in leading/teaching the people.

Yeshua went to the Temple in the heavenly realms and was the High Priest there....not here on earth.




Regarding the new covenant. Those verses are great and all, but is it completed?

I ask b/c the first reference to a new covenant states that in Jeremiha 31:33 - No longer will each teach his neighbor or each his brother, saying: 'Know Adonai,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest." it is a declaration of Adonai. "For I will forgive their iniquity, their sin I will remember no more.

Hebrews 8 quotes this as well in verse 11.

So the problem with thinking everything is done is that people are still having to be taught about God.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

The foundation is the church and the apostles?

---

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:19-22

---

Wow, what a stretch saying this is the church. So you substituted the word church for prophets?

Quote:

---

Using what the Messiah had to show them all about Him, convince me that Christianity was/is THE Faith. Convince me only the so-called moral commandments are supposed to be kept. Convince me that when God said that His commandments were forever that He really didn't mean forever. Convert me to Christianity. I am not needing to be convinced that Yeshua is the Messiah, but that what Christianity is today is the true path.

---

I don't know exactly what your end game here is, or really your parameters, but the bolded statements give me pause. How can someone be converted to Christianity with those two ideas?

Quote:

---

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

---

All of the commandments fall into those two categories, and I don't remember anywhere Jesus saying that either of them were invalid at any point.

And what is your definition of "Christianity today"? My Christianity follows those two commandments...or at least I try really hard to follow them anyway.

The church says the Torah was either fulfilled, nailed to the cross, abolished, etc. My end game is to prove either what the Christianity practices is right or wrong based on the text and oral testimony of what was available to a Jew in 35AD.

The summarization of the Torah was done long before the Messiah arrived on the scene. In summarizing the commandments, this did not mean the rest were done away with, it was just a way to sum up all of the commandments. Not just the ten for neither of the 2 greatest are part of the ten.


Their is the problem of what is love? According to the Torah, to Yeshua, and to John, loving God is following the commandments. The same for your neighbor. Love is following the commandments - 2 John 1:6.

I don't disagree. The Ten is a summarization of the 613.

So you want to conclude that the covenant is what was wrong. It was the covenant from God that was at fault. God setup a bad covenant. Is that what you think of your God? That He messed up and is now correcting the problem?


From a Greek scholar on 8:7:

8:7 Prior to seeing the appeal made to Jeremiah 31:31-34 in Hebrews 8:8-12, our author makes the assertion, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second." There is an immediate question to be asked, because in a version like the NASU which employs italics for words added by the translators, it is easily seen that "covenant" is not in the original reading. The Greek actually reads with Ei gar h prt ekein n amemptos, with the term diathk or "covenant" noticeably missing from Hebrews 8:7: "for if that first were faultless" (YLT). While the New Covenant is something that features within the author's discussion for sure, what is h prt really connected to? Is adding "covenant" an inappropriate value judgment, as made by most Bible translators? Grammatically speaking, given the surrounding cotext, there are four possible feminine nouns that can be legitimately associated with h prt. Diathk or "covenant" is certainly one of them, but so are skn or "tabernacle," hiersun or "priesthood," or even leitourgia or "ministry/service." The latter three would be used as references to the Levitical sacrificial system, which the author of Hebrews has affirmed previously in ch. 8, is surpassed in effectiveness by the Melchizedekian priesthood of Yeshua (Hebrews 8:1-4).

Hebrews 8:1, in particular, is frequently left out of readers' evaluations of what Hebrews 8:7-13 really communicateseven though it clearly controls what the author is trying to communicate. What does he label that he is about to discuss? He calls it kephalaion"Now this is my main point" (NEB). The discussion in Hebrews 8:7-13 is controlled by the change in priesthoods that Yeshua has brought by His sacrifice, which in turn enacts the power of the New Covenant. As Lane describes, "By his life of perfect obedience and his death, Jesus inaugurated the new covenant of Jer 31:31-34. His entrance into the heavenly sanctuary guarantees God's acceptance of his sacrifice and the actualization of the provisions of the superior covenant he mediated." Only by the priesthood of Yeshua in Heaven can the enactment of the New Covenant be realized.

Why is it important to recognize that the discussion of the New Covenant is placed within an overarching discussion about a change in priesthoods? It is because it affects how we read Hebrews 8:7: "For if that firsthad been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second" (NASU). Is this the "first covenant," meaning the Mosaic Covenant that had been delivered by God at Mount Sinai to His people? Or is this the "first priesthood/tabernacle/ministry," which had been occupied by sinful human beings? The perspective of the author of Hebrews is that the Levitical priesthood was the problem, because it could not offer the permanent redemption that Yeshua's Melchizedekian priesthood offers (Hebrews 7:11, 28). No statement is ever given that the Law given by God is somehow bad or is somehow the problem, rather it is those sinful men who occupied the office of Levitical priest (Hebrews 7:27; 10:11) that requires the change. With Yeshua's Melchizedekian priesthood now in place, the essential reality of the New Covenant can be partaken of.

It was largely the first "priesthood" that was actually discovered by God to not be "faultless," because its human occupiers ("them," Hebrews 8:8) cannot perform the same type of work that Yeshua the Son performs before the Father in Heaven. If, for the statement Ei gar h prt ekein, translators provided "first priesthood," "first tabernacle," "first ministry"or perhaps the most encompassing of these three, "first service" (PME)the reference would be placed upon the Levitical priesthood and Tabernacle service. Not enough realize, that it is upon the basis of Yeshua's priesthood, that the New Covenant has been inaugurated forth (Hebrews 8:6). The problem was not with any previous covenant God had made with His people, but it was with the actual peopleespecially the prieststhat definitely required salvation history to progress forward (Hebrews 1:1-2), and for a new arrangement to be made via the sacrifice of Yeshua the Messiah, providing permanent atonement and forgiveness.

v8:8a:

8:8a Our author notes how the "first priesthood/tabernacle/ministry," or the "first service," was not "faultless." The New Covenant has to be inaugurated because God "finds fault with them." While it might be thought that this is mainly speaking of "the people" (NIV), it is more likely that "them" relates to "the priests" (Hebrews 8:4, RSV/NIV/NRSV/ESV) referred to earlier. However, such sinful and weak human priests do have "to offer up sacrifices, first for [their] own sins and then for the sins of the people" (Hebrews 7:27), so the sins of the people at large are still in the equation.
Principally, in light of the wider issues, the New Covenant is inaugurated because of the poorness of the Levitical priestsnot difficult to assert in the First Century C.E. due to the corrupt Sadduceesand secondly relates to the people at large. Yeshua exalted in Heaven now serves the people after His Melchizedkian order, bringing the essential reality of the Jeremiah 31:31-34 prophecy to those who were once served by the Levitical order. Bruce fairly summarizes these expectations as:
"The people's life would be reconstituted on a new basis, and a new relationship between them and their God would be brought into being. This new relationship would involve three things in particular: (a) the implanting of God's law in their hearts; (b) the knowledge of God as a matter of personal experience; (c) the blotting out of their sins."


There is no way to read Ephesians 2 and see that translate the apostles and prophets as the church. You are saying I am reading into things I want to see....lol

You obviously know nothing about my beliefs.

Christians believe something changed that now calls for God's will, His Torah, to be followed. What is that change?

Nobody said wrong but you?

Every Jew is going to adhere to this unless you can find something to change this, but then that would be test and when you change...you fail.

You must not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreamsfor Adonai your God is testing you, to find out whether you love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 Adonai your God you will follow and Him you will fear. His mitzvot you will keep, to His voice you will listen, Him you will serve and to Him you will cling.

Loving God is following the commandments. If you don't follow the commandments you are a liar and you don't know Him.

agie95 said:

---

You obviously know nothing about my beliefs.

Christians believe something changed that now calls for God's will, His Torah, to be followed. What is that change?

---

Christians believe that the best way to live their lives is in submission to God...that his ways are best and we find true joy in living life according to his ways. That doesn't mean taking up the whole counsel of the law and not wearing two kinds of fabric. It means living this life in its entirety in submission to his Spirit (see Romans 8:12-17), that is enabled and empowered by him fulfilling his promise to us in giving us new hearts (I think you alluded to Ez 36:26ff in one of your posts). Our obedience is the by-product of our submission to his Spirit. Our obedience is the instrument panel, if you will, that indicates our course. It can never be done apart from the work of the Holy Spirit which both the OT and NT painfully point out for every person who's ever endeavored to try obedience apart from the Spirit.

So we live this life in obedience, not to earn salvation, the way the Jews supposed this came about, but rather because we, by God's divine grace alone (through no intellectual assent or cleverly devised arguments), have become convinced that there is a way that seems right to a man but it leads to death and instead we have turned and found hope in our reliance upon the righteousness of Christ for our salvation and joy in our submission to Jesus Christ as our King.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

So you want to conclude that the covenant is what was wrong

---

No one said wrong except for you.

---

You said vs 7 speaks of the covenant....For if that first one had been faultless, there would not have been discourse seeking a second.

Therefore, you said the covenant was a fault. You did....not me. I am just pointing out the issue with your theology.

The purpose of the Spirit is to cause you to walk out the commandments, therefore, you are not walking out in the spirit, b/c you choose not to follow the commandments. Those who don't are walking according to the flesh in your Romans example. You don't get to choose what you want to follow. That makes you god and therefore you would be an idolater.

Jews, in general, don't think they earn their salvation. God's grace existed long before the 1st century.

John 5:24 - "Amen, amen I tell you, whoever hears My word and trusts the One who sent Me has eternal life.

The word for hears is the same word used in the Septuagint for Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4. In other words, hear and obey.

Luke 10:25-28 - Now a certain Torah lawyer stood up to entrap Yeshua, saying, "Teacher, what should I do to gain eternal life?"
26 Then Yeshua said to him, "What has been written in the Torah? How do you read it?"
27 And he replied, "You shall love Adonai your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
28 Yeshua said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live."


Matthew 19:17 - "Why do you ask Me about what is good?" Yeshua said to him. "There is only One who is good; but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

agie95 said:

---

The purpose of the Spirit is to cause you to walk out the commandments, therefore, you are not walking out in the spirit, b/c you choose not to follow the commandments. Those who don't are walking according to the flesh in your Romans example. You don't get to choose what you want to follow. That makes you god and therefore you would be an idolater.

Jews, in general, don't think they earn their salvation. God's grace existed long before the 1st century.

---

The purpose of the Spirit is to glorify God, not obey laws.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah?

willie wonka said:

---

agie95 said:

---

The purpose of the Spirit is to cause you to walk out the commandments, therefore, you are not walking out in the spirit, b/c you choose not to follow the commandments. Those who don't are walking according to the flesh in your Romans example. You don't get to choose what you want to follow. That makes you god and therefore you would be an idolater.

Jews, in general, don't think they earn their salvation. God's grace existed long before the 1st century.

---

The purpose of the Spirit is to glorify God, not obey laws.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah?

---

I need support for the purpose of the spirit is to glorify God....here is my support...I will say that doing God's will, the Torah, does glorify God.

Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Ezekiel 36:26-27

nd I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. Ezekiel 11:19-20

JC is a pagan god. I believe Yeshua is a manifestation of God, who has the title Son of God.

agie95 said:

---

willie wonka said:

---

agie95 said:

---

The purpose of the Spirit is to cause you to walk out the commandments, therefore, you are not walking out in the spirit, b/c you choose not to follow the commandments. Those who don't are walking according to the flesh in your Romans example. You don't get to choose what you want to follow. That makes you god and therefore you would be an idolater.

Jews, in general, don't think they earn their salvation. God's grace existed long before the 1st century.

---

The purpose of the Spirit is to glorify God, not obey laws.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah?

---

I need support for the purpose of the spirit is to glorify God....here is my support...I will say that doing God's will, the Torah, does glorify God.

Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Ezekiel 36:26-27

nd I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. Ezekiel 11:19-20

JC is a pagan god. I believe Yeshua is a manifestation of God, who has the title Son of God.

---

Then my first email stands. Your heart has been hardened to the Lord Jesus Christ and I beseech you to turn from your unbelief, call out to the Lord and beg him for eyes to see.

Rom 9:30-10:4 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

John 4:19-26 The woman said to him, "Sir, I believe that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."

Please call out to the Lord and ask him to reveal himself to you and repent of your hard-heartedness. Repent and believe!

I am not calling out to a pagan god who tells you not to follow Torah.

By the way, you didn't provide any support for your belief of the purpose of the spirit.

Call out to the one true God and humbly ask him to reveal who Jesus Christ is. I think you'll reach a similar conclusion to Paul's on the Damascus road, "Who are you, Lord?" "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, the purpose for their creation was to glorify God and show creation what God was like, the law was not needed. Sin came into the world through them. The law was given to restrain sin.

The Holy Spirit was promised as a new creation to make us new, to restore us even to a greater place than Adam, to give us hearts to desire good things; a desire to fulfill the chief end of man: to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

willie wonka said:

---

Call out to the one true God and humbly ask him to reveal who Jesus Christ is. I think you'll reach a similar conclusion to Paul's on the Damascus road, "Who are you, Lord?" "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, the purpose for their creation was to glorify God and show creation what God was like, the law was not needed. Sin came into the world through them. The law was given to restrain sin.

The Holy Spirit was promised as a new creation to make us new, to restore us even to a greater place than Adam, to give us hearts to desire good things; a desire to fulfill the chief end of man: to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

---

That is not support.

God's Torah existed before creation (Proverbs 8) so how can you say that it was given to restrain sin? Yeshua, the Messiah, is the word or Torah made flesh. So He only came to restrain sin?

So the Torah which defines sin, only came to restrain sin?

The Torah teaches something different. Deuteronomy 30:11-21:

"For this mitzvah that I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in the heavens, that you should say, 'Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us, and have us hear it so we may do it?' 13 Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross over for us to the other side of the sea and get it for us, and have us hear it so we may do it?' 14 No, the word is very near to youin your mouth and in your heart, to do it.
15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil. 16 What I am commanding you today is to love Adonai your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His mitzvot, statutes and ordinances. Then you will live and multiply, and Adonai your God will bless you in the land you are going in to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away and you do not listen, but are drawn away and bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish! You will not prolong your days on the land, where you are about to cross over the Jordan to go in to possess.
19 "I call the heavens and the earth to witness about you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 by loving Adonai your God, listening to His voice, and clinging to Him.


David, a man after God's own hearts says the same thing:

Psalm 119:50 - My comfort in my affliction is this: Your word has kept me alive.
Psalm 119:77 - Let Your tender mercies reach me, Let me live, for Your Torah is my delight.
Psalm 119:116 - Sustain me according to Your word, so I may live, and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
Psalm 119:144 - Your testimonies are righteous forevermake me understand, so I may live.
Psalm 119:154 - Defend my cause and redeem me. Restore my life through Your word.
Psalm 119:159 - See how I loved Your precepts. Restore my life, Adonai, with Your lovingkindness.

Torah is life. Paul is misunderstood as he was back in the day.

Romans 8:6-8 - For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Ruach is life and shalom. 7 For the mindset of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not submit itself to the law of Godfor it cannot. 8 So those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Torah says the Torah is life. The mindset of the Ruach is life. Those in the flesh do not submit to the Torah of God, so they cannot please God. This goes back to Ezekiel 36:26-27 and 11:19-20. The Ruach HaKodesh, the Holy Spirit, will is life...it is Torah, which is placed in you and written on your heart in the New Covenant.

Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified.

How did Yeshua respond? What does the Torah say? the answer- follow the commandments. Yeshua then responded, do them and you will have life!

why is there no longer the sacrificial system for Jews?

No one does Torah perfectly so there is still sin...the law teaches that.

There's only one who didn't sin: Jesus Christ fully God and fully man: the only who could fulfill the righteous requirements of the law who also stood in place of sinners, taking on himself the wrath of God that you and I deserve.

He is the eternal God, therefore the only one who could ever assuage the eternal wrath that we have earned for offending an eternal, holy God.

Jesus conquered sin and death in his flesh.

Sin is sin. Sin is only known through the Torah, so if you don't follow Torah, then you don't know what sin is. Sin is transgressing the Torah. God made provisions if you sinned. He did not say, if you can't keep it don't worry about. He said to keep it.


If your Jesus did away with the Torah, then He sinned (God forbid) and He was not the Messiah. Another one of those negative commandments.....don't add or subtract from the Torah.

Yes, the Messiah paid for your sins, but He didn't do away with your keeping His Torah!


I am still waiting on your support for the role of the spirit.

I think we're talking past each other. The Holy Spirit DOES enable us to obey God but it is not our obedience that earns us salvation. It is solely by the righteousness of Christ that I will be able to stand before God. The Holy Spirit regenerates us to believe the Christ is the Messiah, that he is who he said he was. And so with new hearts we are enabled to do the will of God out of joy and by divine aid to fight temptation.

Our obedience is the smoke that gives evidence of the regenerate fire in the fireplace.

I do think you may be talking past each other, but it's going somewhere, so I hope we continue.

I have a question. Earlier you said:
"That doesn't mean taking up the whole counsel of the law and not wearing two kinds of fabric."

Why do you believe that? I realize that some of the law may seem trivial, but I am sure we agree that it is not up to us to validate a commandment. I will assume that you subscribe to other commandments such as honoring your father and mother, why not all commandments?

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

In the sentence just before the quote you said:
"Christians believe that the best way to live their lives is in submission to God...that his ways are best and we find true joy in living life according to his ways."

I think Agie95 would agree with that.
I agree with that.
However, I think it contradicts your other point.
The Creator's ways are best, but aren't His ways Torah?

"Our obedience is the by-product of our submission to his Spirit."

I think that this is where the mix-up happens. There is a disagreement regarding the definition of obedience. What should we be obedient to?

My purpose has been the same on this forum, what is our response to salvation. What does one need to be obedient to.....I am saying Torah! If you are not obedient to Torah, then you are not being obedient to God. Therefore, you don't love Him and don't really know Him.

Synagogue of Satan. If you knew the father you would know Jesus is God.

Ironically, that phrase from Revelation is for people like you. They think they know the Father, but they truly don't believe.

Don't let your disobedience prevent you from entering His rest.

Agie95,
No one can change your mind if you are determined to never let it be changed. So I can only say one of us is right and the other will be delivered into hell when they die. As a Christion, I pray that you will see the truth, so that you can join us in heaven someday. May God have mercy on your soul when that day comes to you.

RebelAG said:

---

Agie95,
No one can change your mind if you are determined to never let it be changed. So I can only say one of us is right and the other will be delivered into hell when they die. As a Christion, I pray that you will see the truth, so that you can join us in heaven someday. May God have mercy on your soul when that day comes to you.

---

lol. Either way, I am good. Either way, I trust in God. I believe Yeshua is the Messiah. I do what He says. I do what He did...follow Torah.

I am the Torah, Torah, and the Torah, the only way to the Father is through Me!